Extension exempt from planning permission - CERITFIED?

rmckeown

Quick question...

Building an extension that is exempt from planning permission. So does the new building regulations of certifying building works still stand. Cant seem to find clear info on this.

Vandy West

Building Control
If extension is less than 40m2 then "short" commencement notice. (Basically just a form to fill in)
If extension more than 40m2 then "full" commencement notice. (Drawings, specs, certs etc required).
Planning
Extension less than 40m2 is not necessarily exempted development, you will want to confirm with council or engineer.
Building regulations
Apply to all works.
Mortgages
If getting money from bank they may ask for cert of compliance which will require an engineer to be involved better if involved from the start.

Gumbo

It may be exempt, but best practice is to engage an engineer or architect now to inspect the works and he or she will issue certificates of compliance with building regs and planning act.

It will save you in the long run as down thine you may need to get them anyway (selling/remortgaging etc)

rmckeown

The planning authority emailed me back finally and said we do not need a our extension be certified. Happy days!!!

sydthebeat

rmckeown wrote: »

The planning authority emailed me back finally and said we do not need a our extension be certified. Happy days!!!

certified from planning...yes....... but you still need:

certificate in compliance with building regulations and;
certificate to say EXEMPT from planning

rmckeown

I emailed planning office in wood quay who replied to say we do not need a building regulation cert or cert to to its exempt and we can build straight away. WTF is going on??????????????/

sydthebeat

rmckeown wrote: »

I emailed planning office in wood quay who replied to say we do not need a building regulation cert or cert to to its exempt and we can build straight away. WTF is going on??????????????/

You asked the planning office if you required planning. They told you you didn't. As far as they are concerned case closed.


However, YOU are still required to comply with building regulatIons therefore you need to get someone to certify compliance with building regulations.
If you ever sell in the future you will require a certificate to say the extension you are doing now is exempt from permission.
It makes sense at this stage to get the same professional to certify compliance with building regs AND exemption from planning now as its basically the same job. No point paying "on the double" in the future.

sydthebeat

... i assume your not building a conservatory of less than 25 sq m????

rmckeown

ok so its for when we go to sell we will need it... surely they should really tell people that. Expecially clueless people like myself.

sydthebeat

rmckeown wrote: »

ok so its for when we go to sell we will need it... surely they should really tell people that. Expecially clueless people like myself.

'planning' are only one section of a large authority. building control are another.

its not unusual at all for one section not to have a clue about what other sections requirements are.

yes, you need it if you sell... however a certificate to say something complies with building regulations SHOULD be based on inspections during the build.

rmckeown

ok grand.. thanks for that... but lets say we just build the extension and dont certify etc what happens?

sydthebeat

rmckeown wrote: »

ok grand.. thanks for that... but lets say we just build the extension and dont certify etc what happens?

you run the risk of your home being devalued in any future sale because of inadequate certification..... certification which you would have to pay for anyway.

Gumbo

rmckeown wrote: »

ok so its for when we go to sell we will need it... surely they should really tell people that. Expecially clueless people like myself.

You rang the wrong department.

rmckeown

i see i see! thanks for all the info!!!!

woodseb

sydthebeat wrote: »

'planning' are only one section of a large authority. building control are another.

its not unusual at all for one section not to have a clue about what other sections requirements are.

yes, you need it if you sell... however a certificate to say something complies with building regulations SHOULD be based on inspections during the build.

ok, this is new to me

I am currently building an extension that is just less than 40m2, I have got full planning permission (due to it not being directly behind the house), I have filed the commencement notice and the HSA documents too

Are you saying, I still need to have the building certified?

DOCARCH

woodseb wrote: »

Are you saying, I still need to have the building certified?

Yes...but not on a statutory basis...i.e. the Council will not be looking for any certification on completion.

What Syd is saying above, is that it is prudent, when building to have an architect or engineer or architectural technician (with professional indemnity insurance) inspect the build, and at the end of the work, issue Opinions on Compliance with regard to Planning Permission and Building Regulations.

It will save you hassle if you ever come to sell your house or re-mortgage/borrow money against your house.

BryanF

woodseb wrote: »

ok, this is new to me

I am currently building an extension that is just less than 40m2, I have got full planning permission (due to it not being directly behind the house), I have filed the commencement notice and the HSA documents too

Are you saying, I still need to have the building certified?

if you ever sell the house/ borrow against you will need to provide a cert of compliance with building regulations and planning permission ('as-built')

do not confuse building regulations with the new building control measures.

rmckeown

still confused... cos I am :-O

BryanF

For a sub 40msq extension Whomever is doing your drawings for tender should provide traditional opinion on compliance with planning & building regulations with approx five visits at construction stage.

rmckeown

I got drawings done from a college student.. its a straight forward build... I have a good builder doing the work along with a big tradie family. So now I have to pay an architect / engineer 600 - 1000 to sign off on this??? (site visits and certs) Or can I not just get this done if I ever go to sell. Surely I can, no?

sydthebeat

rmckeown wrote: »

I got drawings done from a college student.. its a straight forward build... I have a good builder doing the work along with a big tradie family. So now I have to pay an architect / engineer 600 - 1000 to sign off on this??? (site visits and certs) Or can I not just get this done if I ever go to sell. Surely I can, no?

Good luck with that so.....

Vandy West

rmckeown wrote: »

I got drawings done from a college student.. its a straight forward build... I have a good builder doing the work along with a big tradie family. So now I have to pay an architect / engineer 600 - 1000 to sign off on this??? (site visits and certs) Or can I not just get this done if I ever go to sell. Surely I can, no?

If you can get someone qualified to design, specify, drawings and site visits for 1000 that would be good value imo. If you have to get it certified at the end it will cost about 200/300 to get someone to inspect it and certify it (IF everything is to building regs and is actually exempted development). Very few builders would know how to ensure the work is in compliance with all the regs. Getting someone to sign off is for your own benefit. Also if you are hiring friends and family it can create an awkward situation if you rather than an engineer/architect are responsible for making sure anything done incorrectly is fixed.

rmckeown

Who can I get to certify it for 200/300????? Any architects or engineers I spoke to charged 100 for each site visit... and 300 for the certs... + VAT (give or take a few quid)
thanks for the good luck wish sydthebeat :-))

BryanF

rmckeown wrote: »

Who can I get to certify it for 200/300?????

no one

Any architects or engineers I spoke to charged 100 for each site visit... and 300 for the certs... + VAT (give or take a few quid)

thats very reasonable, considering:

drawings done from a college student

so consequently an arch/engs input will be required on site to ensure building regulations are complied with.

now before we hear 'sure the builder knows what he is doing' 'I have a good builder doing the work'

1. is your builder aware of the near 1000 pages of building regs added since the end of the building boom?
2. has the builder committed to building in accordance with everything applicable under the technical guidance documents http://www.environ.ie/en/TGD/
3. why not ask the builder what insurance will be in place to cover you if there is a problem? (why not read into what this insurance will actually cover..)

Penn

rmckeown wrote: »

Who can I get to certify it for 200/300?

Nobody worth hiring.

Remember, you're not just hiring them to certify it. You're hiring them to regularly visit the site and check that the work is certifiable, as well as collating and keeping a record of all the required certs and documents. That's something which is in your best interests and isn't something you should look to skimp on.

Obviously shop around and get as good a price as you can, but some things cost what they do for a reason; because that's how much it costs to do it right.

Vandy West

rmckeown wrote: »

Who can I get to certify it for 200/300????? Any architects or engineers I spoke to charged 100 for each site visit... and 300 for the certs... + VAT (give or take a few quid)
thanks for the good luck wish sydthebeat :-))

When I said certify at the end I meant issue a cert of compliance based on one site visit after all the work is done.
IF everything is done right then you should get this cert relatively cheaply, but it will only be based on what is visible so doesn't guarantee that what is not visible is done right.
If something has been done wrong you will pay for the site visit, have no cert and have to correct the problem if you want the cert.
Obviously depending on the problem you could be looking at a big bill. Basically hiring an engineer now will be insurance against facing additional cost at the end because something is wrong.

rmckeown

I am not going to pay 3k for an engineer for a small extention exempt from planning. Its madness for what we are building. Also is it only architects / engineers that can sign off on this? Just throwing these questions out there. Is there anywhere I can can view the facts on all of this. Everything I come accross is based on works over 40m2.

sydthebeat

rmckeown wrote: »

I am not going to pay 3k for an engineer for a small extention exempt from planning. Its madness for what we are building. Also is it only architects / engineers that can sign off on this? Just throwing these questions out there. Is there anywhere I can can view the facts on all of this. Everything I come accross is based on works over 40m2.

Works under 40sq are NOT exempt from building regulations.

rmckeown

i never said it was exempt from building regulations sydthebeat


anyone recommend any structural engineers or someone to certify?

Gumbo

rmckeown wrote: »

i never said it was exempt from building regulations sydthebeat


anyone recommend any structural engineers or someone to certify?

Maybe mention where you are based?

Thanks.

Drift

Make sure you get an engineer to design/check the foundation OP. No Engineer worth his/her salt will sign in future for a foundation he didn't see during installation. That could be stumbling block if you ever go to sell.

When you have already taken him on for the foundations it would be as well off to keep him/her for the rest of the project.

mail

Hi, I have been following this thread and would like to put the Builders side forward. It was stated earlier that Builders are not up with regulations as much as Architectural Technicians. From my own perspective, I am a Builder and have been for over thirty years. I am well aware of the Technical Guidance Documents and build according to them all the time. I have come across lots of Architects and Technicians where I had to point out that they have not complied with these regulations in their drawings. I also know of some people who until four years ago were working in a shop for over thirty years and when made redundant decided to go to college as mature students to become an Architectural Tecnician. These people whilst qualified and holding a Degree, in my opinion have insufficient experience to certify compliance. I have kept up with all regulations and myself hold a Degree in construction and also a post Graduate Degree. I also hold full Chartered Membership of CIOB. As you can appreciate it will be difficult for me to have a former shop assistant with no construction experience inspecting my work and signing off on it.

As for my advice to the person getting the small extension done, trust your instincts and your builder. I am sure you will not pick a bad builder as all the good ones have years of experience and are smart enough to keep up with new regulations.

Situation

I bought my house in the boom with a 20 square metre extension to the rear which is not signed off and the bank allowed me a mortgage.

rmckeown

I 100% trust my builder, he comes from a very long list of happy customers and is highly recommended with over 30 years under his belt too. That is not my concern here.

My question is if I ever go to sell my house, will my extension not allow me to so because it hasnt been certified at the time of build, or can I get a cert done as and when I ever go to sell? Surely lots of people are not going to pay 1000's of quid for small extensions to architects and engineers, or am I wrong here?

sydthebeat

rmckeown wrote: »

I 100% trust my builder, he comes from a very long list of happy customers and is highly recommended with over 30 years under his belt too. That is not my concern here.

My question is if I ever go to sell my house, will my extension not allow me to so because it hasnt been certified at the time of build, or can I get a cert done as and when I ever go to sell? Surely lots of people are not going to pay 1000's of quid for small extensions to architects and engineers, or am I wrong here?

Directly answered already in post 12

BryanF

Situation wrote: »

I bought my house in the boom with a 20 square metre extension to the rear which is not signed off and the bank allowed me a mortgage.

In the boom when they were giving money away..

RITwing

rmckeown wrote: »

Surely lots of people are not going to pay 1000's of quid for small extensions to architects and engineers, or am I wrong here?

You are not wrong here. Lots and lots of people will not.

Penn

rmckeown wrote: »

I 100% trust my builder, he comes from a very long list of happy customers and is highly recommended with over 30 years under his belt too. That is not my concern here.

My question is if I ever go to sell my house, will my extension not allow me to so because it hasnt been certified at the time of build, or can I get a cert done as and when I ever go to sell? Surely lots of people are not going to pay 1000's of quid for small extensions to architects and engineers, or am I wrong here?

Depends on the extension, as everyone's circumstances are different. You trust your builder and he's well recommended, and that's great. Others have to take more of a leap of faith when choosing their builder. Some extensions might involve a lot of structural work, which means an engineer should be involved, regardless of the builder's competency. Some extensions might be fairly complex due to stuff like party wall issues, tight sites, flow issues in the house etc, so an architect/arch tech/engineer/surveyor should be involved etc. Some extensions might be based off a loan or mortgage, which the bank would require official sign-offs for.

There's just a lot of different circumstances that might mean even if you're 100% sure the builder will build it to all the current building regs (and there are many great builders who can), a qualified, registered professional might still be required. We've worked on jobs where it's been the builder themselves who have persuaded the client to engage us.

As for your own cert, an architect etc can't certify work that they can't see. If they can't see the foundations and don't know what the ground conditions were, or how it was tied in with the existing, then they can't certify that it was done right. If they can't see the insulation in the walls, they can't say it meets the current building regulations. They can certify it as being exempt from planning permission, but to certify it as complying with the building regulations is another thing entirely. If you went to sell the house in the future, it is something which could come up or be looked for, and if it's not provided you could end up spending more than what it would currently cost to certify it. Someone trying to certify it in the future might need trial holes dug, holes drilled in walls, BER testing etc. It's more cost effective to get it certified now with an architect etc inspecting the works as they progress.

Penn

Also, thread moved to C&P as it's too specific about an actual project, as opposed to general discussion about building regulations & legislation.

Drift

rmckeown wrote: »

Surely lots of people are not going to pay 1000's of quid for small extensions to architects and engineers, or am I wrong here?

Plenty of professionals also won't charge "1000s" for this service. Shop around - it's ultra competitive in the sub 40 sq m range at the moment.

rmckeown

so just if i dont get it certified now my house will be devalued should I go to sell? that correct?

RITwing

You may even find sales will fall through. I have it happen more than once.

Johnnyhpipe

You seem to be leaving out key part of this process - design and construction monitoring.

Why would you not want your building properly designed, inspected and certified? You won't pay an engineer for this so you can save a fraction of the project cost?? But you're happy with the college student drawings...and you're also happy with a builder to gunther something together without any design in place??

The things I read on this forum sometimes seriously concern me. People really don't give a sh!t.

The amount of calls I get in the office of some guy saying "i built the extension years ago myself...but there was a serious amount of concrete in it, how much do you charge for a cert?". When i eventually pick myself back up off the floor I tell them I don't charge for it..because I won't be signing any such cert and good luck with finding an engineer who will...

Its really frustrating reading this kind of b011ox!

doireann08

quick question,

I am getting a gardem room built at the end of my bacl garden, under 25sq metres, do I need to get a cert too?
I am working with a garden designer

4Sticks

quick answer. Yes