Cost of conveyancing

WhiteWalls

My brother is thinking about buying a house that has an asking price of 175k. Say he does buy it for that sum, what could the solicitor charge to legalize the transaction?

Pat Mustard

There is no standard or regulated price, but there is usually a market price in particular geographical areas. Your brother should make enquiries.

Could be €1000 to €1500 (plus VAT, plus outlays; land registry fees, etc.) for a bog standard residential conveyance, these days. If there is a tedious registry of deeds title to sift through, or some other ugly complication (e.g. non-standard first registration), it could cost more.

It depends on the market.

WhiteWalls

The Mustard wrote: »

There is no standard or regulated price, but there is usually a market price in particular geographical areas. Your brother should make enquiries.

Could be €1000 to €1500 (plus VAT, plus outlays; land registry fees, etc.) for a bog standard residential conveyance, these days. If there is a tedious registry of deeds title to sift through, or some other ugly complication (e.g. non-standard first registration), it could cost more.

It depends on the market.

cheers, just wanted a general idea. For the solicitor is it just a matter of seeing the maps are correct or is there much more to it?

Pat Mustard

Solicitors check title, which is proof of ownership of land.

Solicitors are not qualified to say if maps or the boundaries are correct. Engineers have to check that.

MarkAnthony

Just got the initial quote at the moment but could someone check this over for anything glaring please?

Professional Fees €1200 + VAT
Fee for making undertakings to the Mortgagor €200 + VAT
Outlays of €400 - €900 depending on registration type

Residential purchase of c. €300,000 in Dublin.

Many Thanks in advance.

Fred Swanson

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Pat Mustard

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Just got the initial quote at the moment but could someone check this over for anything glaring please?

Professional Fees €1200 + VAT
Fee for making undertakings to the Mortgagor €200 + VAT
Outlays of €400 - €900 depending on registration type

Residential purchase of c. €300,000 in Dublin.

Many Thanks in advance.

Looks right. Land registry fees here.

You are doing well on the solicitor's fee, especially so if it's a Dublin solicitor.

Over a loan of a certain amount, purchasers' solicitors have to deal with banks' solicitors, and it can be the case that their fees of maybe €1000 plus VAT plus outlays have to be paid by the purchasers/borrowers. The conditions of the loan offer would specify if this is the case.

MarkAnthony

Thank you both; the solicitor I spoke to (late on a Friday which gives me some confidence straight off the bat) was very reassuring. I've some small experience with some solicitors and my BS detector is fairly well tuned so unless I get a recommendation off the broker at some great rate I'll go with the guys I phoned.

Thank The Mustard - that backed up a couple of things the solicitor said which is very reassuring.

Thanks again both!

Mfwic_47

In the USA most people use Title Insurance companies to handle conveyances. Attornies hate them because they are cheaper and much quicker. Estate agents (Real Estate agents) loved us because they want their commission and they want it fast. Now, attornies have wised up and opened their own title insurance companies, often just so they can double dip. I ran a six office title company in S. Florida and our record volume was 4200 transactions in a year and the record for quickest transaction was 3 hours from time of receipt of a standard contract for sale & purchase. I examined title and checked taxes while a processor ordered a faxed payoff for a mortgage and prepared the deed, settlement statement, governmental forms and a transmittal for the courier to take to the courthouse.
I'm in the process of becoming a solicitor just so I can incorporate title insurance conveyancing methods into a law firm here. Then again, I could opt to be a consultant. They seem to make a lot of money stating the obvious, something like 120 year old clay pipes are leaking.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Mfwic_47

Fred, "Up Them"?

By the way, when a man and woman, who I happen to know are husband & wife, are full owners, does that mean that they are tenants in common, joint tenants with survivorship (or tenants by the entireties)?

nuac

Mfwic_47 wrote: »

In the USA most people use Title Insurance companies to handle conveyances. Attornies hate them because they are cheaper and much quicker. Estate agents (Real Estate agents) loved us because they want their commission and they want it fast. Now, attornies have wised up and opened their own title insurance companies, often just so they can double dip. I ran a six office title company in S. Florida and our record volume was 4200 transactions in a year and the record for quickest transaction was 3 hours from time of receipt of a standard contract for sale & purchase. I examined title and checked taxes while a processor ordered a faxed payoff for a mortgage and prepared the deed, settlement statement, governmental forms and a transmittal for the courier to take to the courthouse.
I'm in the process of becoming a solicitor just so I can incorporate title insurance conveyancing methods into a law firm here. Then again, I could opt to be a consultant. They seem to make a lot of money stating the obvious, something like 120 year old clay pipes are leaking.

Pipes are a matter for your engineer

Good luck with the title insurance.

You may have interesting times

Mr. Incognito

Mfwic_47 wrote: »

In the USA most people use Title Insurance companies to handle conveyances. Attornies hate them because they are cheaper and much quicker. Estate agents (Real Estate agents) loved us because they want their commission and they want it fast. Now, attornies have wised up and opened their own title insurance companies, often just so they can double dip. I ran a six office title company in S. Florida and our record volume was 4200 transactions in a year and the record for quickest transaction was 3 hours from time of receipt of a standard contract for sale & purchase. I examined title and checked taxes while a processor ordered a faxed payoff for a mortgage and prepared the deed, settlement statement, governmental forms and a transmittal for the courier to take to the courthouse.
I'm in the process of becoming a solicitor just so I can incorporate title insurance conveyancing methods into a law firm here. Then again, I could opt to be a consultant. They seem to make a lot of money stating the obvious, something like 120 year old clay pipes are leaking.

Insurance and conveyancing are too totally different things unless i am missing something?

You wont sell a house in three hours. Unregistered title especially.

Fred Swanson

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Peregrinus

Mfwic_47 wrote: »

Fred, "Up Them"?

By the way, when a man and woman, who I happen to know are husband & wife, are full owners, does that mean that they are tenants in common, joint tenants with survivorship (or tenants by the entireties)?

Not sure if we still have tenancy by the entirety in Ireland. If we do, it's rare to come accross it in practice.

Either way, which of the two (or three) it is can only be determine by looking at the title to the property. The commonest form of co-ownership between spouses, where the property is a family home, is a joint tenancy, but it doesn't have to be.

Mfwic_47

The couple that own the house sent me a certified copy of the folio and what amounts to the legal description but they thought that was the witnessed document, so it just says "full owners".
I tried to take title to four flats in Knock as a life tenant with the remainderman to my 10 years old son. That way I coud retain the right to lease, borrow, or convey the property while alive. My solicitor informed me that the legislature banned life tenancy in 2009. Dept. of Revenue must have seen the loophole for inheritance tax losses

Mfwic_47

Mr. Incognito,
Here's how the industry would look at it. To insure a conveyance it must be legal. If it's legal then a title insurance company can insure it. In the old days, the title agent would place a disclaimer on the first page of the deed stating that the deed was only prepared by the agent in the course of issuing the title policy. Nowadays, they don't bother.

The agency would have the buyer and seller at the same table for the closing, all the documents would be signed, real estate taxes prorated, any property owners' association fees paid, as well as an estoppel letter in hand from the mortgage company, balance of money due from buyer, seller agreed on his proceeds and a settlement statement signed by both parties, then the deed was sent to the clerk of the court of the pertinent county for recordation. At the time of closing the transaction was insured, hence 3, yes 3 hours from contract signing to closing.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Mr. Incognito

Mfwic_47 wrote: »

Mr. Incognito,
Here's how the industry would look at it. To insure a conveyance it must be legal. If it's legal then a title insurance company can insure it. In the old days, the title agent would place a disclaimer on the first page of the deed stating that the deed was only prepared by the agent in the course of issuing the title policy. Nowadays, they don't bother.

The agency would have the buyer and seller at the same table for the closing, all the documents would be signed, real estate taxes prorated, any property owners' association fees paid, as well as an estoppel letter in hand from the mortgage company, balance of money due from buyer, seller agreed on his proceeds and a settlement statement signed by both parties, then the deed was sent to the clerk of the court of the pertinent county for recordation. At the time of closing the transaction was insured, hence 3, yes 3 hours from contract signing to closing.

This makes zero sense to me. What does insurance have to do with conveyancing?

Peregrinus

Mfwic_47 wrote: »

I tried to take title to four flats in Knock as a life tenant with the remainderman to my 10 years old son. That way I coud retain the right to lease, borrow, or convey the property while alive. My solicitor informed me that the legislature banned life tenancy in 2009. Dept. of Revenue must have seen the loophole for inheritance tax losses

Two nitpicks. First, if you had been able to buy as a life tenant, I don't think you would have been able to convey the property during your own life. You couldn't sell a freehold interest; only the interest which you yourself had, i.e. a life interest terminating on your death. And it's unlikely that you would have found any arm's length taker for that.

Secondly, whatever the reason for abolishing life tenancies, I don't think it had anything to do with inheritance tax. What we have in Ireland is Capital Acquisitions Tax; it's levied on the recipient of property, and it applies to property received. Generally speaking, if you become entitle to property on the death of somebody else, that's a taxable inheritance, regardless of whether you inhertited the property, in the legal sense, from the deceased person. So if, on the death of A, B's remainder in the property is enlarged into a fee simple, the difference in value between B's remainder and the fee simple is a taxable inheritance.

Uno my Uno.

Mfwic_47 wrote: »

Fred, "Up Them"?

By the way, when a man and woman, who I happen to know are husband & wife, are full owners, does that mean that they are tenants in common, joint tenants with survivorship (or tenants by the entireties)?

I'd have thought that knowing the answer to that sort of question (amongst others) and its implications on title would be central to your endeavour.

As for bringing US style conveyancing to Ireland through the use of Title Insurance I'd be all for it but aside from the fact title isn't really the issue that causes delays in conveyancng (reviewing a registered title isn't arduous) I can see a couple of hurdles.

Firstly who is going to provide this title insurance? When last I checked the only provider in Ireland was First American and they weren't in the residential business. They would probably quote for anything but certainly they didn't treat it as a volume business.

Secondly is the cost,American closing fees (legal costs, taxes, transaction fees etc) are a multiple of what is paid by Irish buyers and sellers. It depends on where you are but there are plenty here on boards who consider €1000 as a fee to be over the odds. Conversely I don't know any solicitor who could do a conveyance at that price and have it be worth their while.

So if you're suggesting that buyers will pay the extra costs of the title company you might not find as many takers as you'd hoped. Most of them would rather the solicitor just did their job, and they'd be right.

Thirdly are the people. Irish buyers and sellers talk a great game about wanting quick easy conveyances but my over riding experience is that they won't put themselves to any inconvenience to get it and they certainly won't pay for it. Getting a buyer and seller in the same place at the same time is almost unheard of and getting the funds released and in place is the real cause of delay of closing.

Uno my Uno.

Peregrinus wrote: »

Two nitpicks. First, if you had been able to buy as a life tenant, I don't think you would have been able to convey the property during your own life. You couldn't sell a freehold interest; only the interest which you yourself had, i.e. a life interest terminating on your death. And it's unlikely that you would have found any arm's length taker for that.

Secondly, whatever the reason for abolishing life tenancies, I don't think it had anything to do with inheritance tax. What we have in Ireland is Capital Acquisitions Tax; it's levied on the recipient of property, and it applies to property received. Generally speaking, if you become entitle to property on the death of somebody else, that's a taxable inheritance, regardless of whether you inhertited the property, in the legal sense, from the deceased person. So if, on the death of A, B's remainder in the property is enlarged into a fee simple, the difference in value between B's remainder and the fee simple is a taxable inheritance.

Life tenancies were abolished for most of the same reasons the settled land acts were introduced 150 years ago. They hindered development of land, were messy, and so little used as to be obsolete. If avoiding tax were that simple we'd all be holding each other's property unto the use of each other and our kids and so on.

Mfwic_47

Uno, I am not planning on opening an agency just utilizing their methods but I have to be a solicitor. Also, I realize there would be hurdles but utilizing the internet, consolidation & standarization of forms, et al. Here in the West it would be harder but city boys might take to it a little faster.

Point taken on Life tenancies re: taxes. In my own case, I merely wanted to retain control until I kicked the bucket. In other words, don't let the bastards grind you down.

?Cee?view

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

When last I checked the only provider in Ireland was First American and they weren't in the residential business. They would probably quote for anything but certainly they didn't treat it as a volume business.

They were in the residential business in the past, in a big way, but only for volume remortgaging.

They also provided commercial and residential defective title insurance.

nuac

1. I don't think those title insurance people deal with planning and building control issue.

2. Knock would be right place for closings within three hours of get-go, all needed parties present.

The Church are looking for some Knock related miracles to enhance it's status as a Shrine. The closing you describe would be a Class A miracle. That is my humble opinion as a lawyer with many years experience of property transactions in the West

Uno my Uno.

Mfwic_47 wrote: »

Uno, I am not planning on opening an agency just utilizing their methods but I have to be a solicitor. Also, I realize there would be hurdles but utilizing the internet, consolidation & standarization of forms, et al. Here in the West it would be harder but city boys might take to it a little faster.

Point taken on Life tenancies re: taxes. In my own case, I merely wanted to retain control until I kicked the bucket. In other words, don't let the bastards grind you down.

Utilizing who's methods? And for what?

As for "consolidation and standardization" precedent forms exist and are used for everything. You don't think that every time a solicitor needs a family home declaration they sit down and start knocking it out from scratch do you?

The other issue is that you can't decide to adopt a set of speedy practices on your own. You'll still be dealing with the other side.

Mfwic_47

Of course I understand, Uno, just different criteria

Mfwic_47

Nuac, I love it, too true!

Uno my Uno.

Mfwic_47 wrote: »

Of course I understand, Uno, just different criteria

Can you explain it to me so?

Peregrinus

Mfwic_47 wrote: »

. . . At the time of closing the transaction was insured, hence 3, yes 3 hours from contract signing to closing.

If you have three hours from contract to closing, then it's unquestionably the case that much of the work which, in Ireland, happens between contract and closing is, under this system, done before contract. I'm thinking of things like survey, loan approval, engineer's reports, planning searches, requisitions on title, yadda, yadda, yadda.

So this three-hour miracle doesn't, in itself, suggest that the US experience is overall either quicker or cheaper than the Irish experience; just that they do things in a different order. It may also be quicker and/or cheaper, but what you say here gives us no reason to think that it is.

I think the more relevant comparison would be, what's the time lapse between conditional agreement on price, and eventual closing?

Uno my Uno.

Peregrinus wrote: »

If you have three hours from contract to closing, then it's unquestionably the case that much of the work which, in Ireland, happens between contract and closing is, under this system, done before contract. I'm thinking of things like survey, loan approval, engineer's reports, planning searches, requisitions on title, yadda, yadda, yadda.

So this three-hour miracle doesn't, in itself, suggest that the US experience is overall either quicker or cheaper than the Irish experience; just that they do things in a different order. It may also be quicker and/or cheaper, but what you say here gives us no reason to think that it is.

I think the more relevant comparison would be, what's the time lapse between conditional agreement on price, and eventual closing?

the big differences (as I understand them) with the US system (such as it is, the processes vary from state to state) is that in the there are no casual bids in the way that there are here. Instead in the US, financing must be in place, bids are submitted in writing and are binding. However conditional contracts are also common where as they aren't in Ireland. If a problem arises on title or on the survey and the contract can be voided.

Peregrinus

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

the big differences (as I understand them) with the US system (such as it is, the processes vary from state to state) is that in the there are no casual bids in the way that there are here. Instead in the US, financing must be in place, bids are submitted in writing and are binding. However conditional contracts are also common where as they aren't in Ireland. If a problem arises on title or on the survey and the contract can be voided.

I'm not following.

First, how is my US bind "binding" if I can withdraw it if I don't like what my surveyor says? And, if I can do that, how is that different from the Irish practice of signing a contract subject to survey?

And, what do you mean by saying that conditional contracts are not common in Ireland? Contracts subject to survey and/or subject to loan approval are very common in Ireland. And contracts for the sale of land can certainly be set aside if a problem on title emerges. The seller covenants to make good title; if he can't, he can't enforce the contract.

Mfwic_47

Fellas, that was a record. It was also a vacant lot in a subdivision (estate), a cash deal and subject only to clear title. On the plat or map of the filed subdivision the lot size is clearly laid out. I agree, Knock needs a boost.

Almost all contracts are subject to something, be it survey, financing, inspection and the like. A typical closing take 30-40 days but that can be sped up. We would have surveyers, loan officers and inspectors on call. The standard contract would be 15 day time limit from execution of contract for surveys and inspections and 30 days for loan qualification unless otherwise stated.

nuac

I have been pondering this miraculous three hour closing in Knock.

Even if the BVM herself (re)appeared to expedite it, I hae me doots - based on a lot of conveyancing around Mayo.

If it did happen, what would be hung at the church?. Usually at such shrines you see crutches etc left by the grateful cured.

A USB stick containing details of the transaction would not have the same impact.

Perhaps in view of all the risks involved a set of keys and a picture of crossed fingers?

Uno my Uno.

Peregrinus wrote: »

I'm not following.

First, how is my US bind "binding" if I can withdraw it if I don't like what my surveyor says? And, if I can do that, how is that different from the Irish practice of signing a contract subject to survey?

And, what do you mean by saying that conditional contracts are not common in Ireland? Contracts subject to survey and/or subject to loan approval are very common in Ireland. And contracts for the sale of land can certainly be set aside if a problem on title emerges. The seller covenants to make good title; if he can't, he can't enforce the contract.

Well you are correct that an offer subject to survey isn't the most binding offer but it is a good deal more binding than a phone call to the agent which is expressly said to be subject to contract.

I suggested that conditional contracts are not common in Ireland because in my years of conveyanceing I never used one, saw one nor was I presented with one, largely because as you point out, they aren't as binding as everyone would like. Certainly a contract subject to loan approval was not considered acceptable at my firm. Other practitioners' experiences may differ.

Of course on a technical level all contracts are conditional, the vendor (usually) covenants to provide vacant possession,if he cannot do so he cannot enforce the contract but it wouldn't be correct to say that contract is not binding. Similarly so with title, copy title is provided prior to signing and it is possible that the title provided prior to contract cannot be provided on closing but at time of contract it should be considered binding.

Mfwic_47

Nuac, as I explained it was in the USA, a simple lot sale for cash in a mapped or platted subdivision, not Knock. The BVM is safe.

Uno, I am not that familiar with Irish contracts but the last one I saw, as a buyer, had an entire 2nd page with 5 or 6 paragraphs stating that I was accepting the property in an "as-is" condition and I couldn't get out of it once signed. Thank god I had an engineer go through the place, as the seller's solicitor would have plugged me where the sun don't shine.

Is a survey in Ireland just a boundary survey which would also show the location of any structures and easements of record or is it one that contains planning records, quality of construction and the like?

Uno my Uno.

nuac wrote: »

I have been pondering this miraculous three hour closing in Knock.

Even if the BVM herself (re)appeared to expedite it, I hae me doots - based on a lot of conveyancing around Mayo.

If it did happen, what would be hung at the church?. Usually at such shrines you see crutches etc left by the grateful cured.

A USB stick containing details of the transaction would not have the same impact.

Perhaps in view of all the risks involved a set of keys and a picture of crossed fingers?

I think a certified copy of the folio with attached file plan could be hung at the church like a miraculous relic for all to come and adore.

Mfwic_47 wrote: »

Nuac, as I explained it was in the USA, a simple lot sale for cash in a mapped or platted subdivision, not Knock. The BVM is safe.

Uno, I am not that familiar with Irish contracts but the last one I saw, as a buyer, had an entire 2nd page with 5 or 6 paragraphs stating that I was accepting the property in an "as-is" condition and I couldn't get out of it once signed. Thank god I had an engineer go through the place, as the seller's solicitor would have plugged me where the sun don't shine.

Those would be the special conditions and yes a property is sold in an as in condition so whatever inspections that need to be done should be done before contract. Is it not so in the US, surely the vendor does not make any warranties as to the condition of the house?

Mfwic_47 wrote: »

Is a survey in Ireland just a boundary survey which would also show the location of any structures and easements of record or is it one that contains planning records, quality of construction and the like?

Usually a survey involves an engineer wandering around the property for an half hour or so before typing up a short report telling you there are a few cracks in the walls but they didn't look very close or measure anything because its just a surface inspection. It also says you shouldn't rely on it and they deny all liability if you do. Oh and their invoice for E250 ex VAT is attached.

Peregrinus

It's whatever survey the buyer wishes to pay for, subject only to the limitation that the surveyor can't damage the property by opening up walls, lifting floors, etc to make inspections. So it's a superficial survey only. Having received the survey report, you chat to the surveyor and he gives you an indication of what he reckons you might have to pay to rectify any issues he has spotted.

I bought on a contract which was subject to survey (and loan approval). Having received the surveyor's report, I went back to the vendor and renegotiated the price downwards, based on what the surveyor had said to me. The surveyor's fee paid for itself many times over.

Uno my Uno.

Peregrinus wrote: »

It's whatever survey the buyer wishes to pay for, subject only to the limitation that the surveyor can't damage the property by opening up walls, lifting floors, etc to make inspections. So it's a superficial survey only. Having received the survey report, you chat to the surveyor and he gives you an indication of what he reckons you might have to pay to rectify any issues he has spotted.

I bought on a contract which was subject to survey (and loan approval). Having received the surveyor's report, I went back to the vendor and renegotiated the price downwards, based on what the surveyor had said to me. The surveyor's fee paid for itself many times over.

Sensible buying for sure, it would s with good reason that all the banks require a survey.

Had our firm been advising the seller we'd have asked you to get your survey done and approval in place before signing contracts. That might have been an issue for you but our experience was that it saved problems in the long run.

Peregrinus

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

Sensible buying for sure, it would s with good reason that all the banks require a survey.

Had our firm been advising the seller we'd have asked you to get your survey done and approval in place before signing contracts. That might have been an issue for you but our experience was that it saved problems in the long run.

Thing is, I'm a little reluctant to lay out good money on a survey when I don't know that you are willing to sell me the property at the price I am willing to pay. For the same reason, I didn't even look at houses that were being sold by auction.

Not all buyers will take my view, obviously. But if you're not willing to deal with conditional offers, where the offerors are evidently serious (willing and anxious to sign a contract) and the conditions are not inherently unreasonable (who wouldn't want a survey?), then you exclude a fair chunk of potential buyers, and reduce the interest in your property.

If a seller signs a condtional contract, then in the worst analysis, if the buyer comes back after the survey and seek an unacceptable price reduction, the seller loses the sale. But that's the same outcome as if the buyer does a pre-contract survey and reduces his offer, or simply walks because of the sellers refusal to sign a conditional contract, so I don't see the seller can end up any worse off by signing the conditional contract.

It's a seller's call, obviously, whether to sign a conditional contract. But it seems to me that the rational course is to be willing to do so.

In any event, if Mfwic_47's proposed business model can't even accommodate conditional contracts, then it's not really suitable for the Irish market.

4ensic15

If a seller signs a conditional contract he limits himself from dealing with other potential purchasers. He will find himself in rows about the costs of repairs and may find the purchaser dragging things out before eventually walking away. The seller may also be unwilling to sign a contract for another property since there is lingering uncertainty about his own sale.
In a weak market the buyer has more leverage but in a strong market the seller will just refuse to sign an unconditional contract. many years ago almost all contracts were subject to loan facilities. This fell into disuse when the banks started issuing letters of offer.
As for this rapid conveyancing, Irish conveyancing is far more complicated that American or even English conveyancing and trying to spped it up depends on many factors outside of the control of any one of the solicitors inviolved. There is now an attempt to move to electronic conveyancing and when this begins, it will dictate the pace.

Peregrinus

4ensic15 wrote: »

If a seller signs a conditional contract he limits himself from dealing with other potential purchasers. He will find himself in rows about the costs of repairs and may find the purchaser dragging things out before eventually walking away. The seller may also be unwilling to sign a contract for another property since there is lingering uncertainty about his own sale.

Well, I have to point out that whether survey and ensuing discussion about repairs, and the cost thereof, and the implications for what the purchaser is willing to pay happens before the contract or after it, it still happens, and it still takes time. As for the seller not being able to buy himself because there is "lingering uncertainty" about his own sale, if he signs a conditional contract before survey and the ensuing discussions he actually has more certainty than if he signs no contract at all until after survey and discussions have all happened.

4ensic15 wrote: »

In a weak market the buyer has more leverage but in a strong market the seller will just refuse to sign an unconditional contract. many years ago almost all contracts were subject to loan facilities. This fell into disuse when the banks started issuing letters of offer.

Yup. I think the practice with regard to/frequency of conditional contracts is going to depend on where we are in the housing market cycle. In a seller's market, a seller can easily take the "unconditional contract or nothing" stance, but in a buyer's market I think sellers who take that stance will do so at a cost (alienating potential purchasers), and more sellers will be willing to sign a conditional contract.

Which just underlines the main point. A conveyancing service has to be able to deal with both. One thing that history teaches us is that the market conditions that prevail today, whatever they are, will not prevail for ever, and a viable plan for a conveyancing service needs to be able to accommodate conveyances on any terms that the law permits, rather than just on the terms that are currently fashionable.

Pat Mustard

I wonder if estate agents in the USA do more of the legwork in relation to gathering evidence of discharge of property taxes. This type of work would speed a sale transaction but it's not done by estate agents in Ireland.

Uno my Uno.

Peregrinus wrote: »

Thing is, I'm a little reluctant to lay out good money on a survey when I don't know that you are willing to sell me the property at the price I am willing to pay. For the same reason, I didn't even look at houses that were being sold by auction.

Not all buyers will take my view, obviously. But if you're not willing to deal with conditional offers, where the offerors are evidently serious (willing and anxious to sign a contract) and the conditions are not inherently unreasonable (who wouldn't want a survey?), then you exclude a fair chunk of potential buyers, and reduce the interest in your property.

If a seller signs a condtional contract, then in the worst analysis, if the buyer comes back after the survey and seek an unacceptable price reduction, the seller loses the sale. But that's the same outcome as if the buyer does a pre-contract survey and reduces his offer, or simply walks because of the sellers refusal to sign a conditional contract, so I don't see the seller can end up any worse off by signing the conditional contract.

It's a seller's call, obviously, whether to sign a conditional contract. But it seems to me that the rational course is to be willing to do so.



In any event, if Mfwic_47's proposed business model can't even accommodate conditional contracts, then it's not really suitable for the Irish market.

Obviously conditional offers ought to be considered, but the question is why bother signing contracts prior to survey and loan approval? It accomplishes little because as you point out the sale can easily still fall through. Better to remain sale agreed until everything is in place and sign then. Essentially "measure twice, cut once."

I have no idea what Mfwic-47's business model is, from what I can gather it amounts to magically working faster somehow and possibly cutting some corners by using title insurance?

Peregrinus

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

Obviously conditional offers ought to be considered, but the question is why bother signing contracts prior to survey and loan approval? It accomplishes little because as you point out the sale can easily still fall through. Better to remain sale agreed until everything is in place and sign then. Essentially "measure twice, cut once."

Why would I spend money on commissioning a survey when I might be told, when I go back to the vendor "actually, the price has gone up", perhaps to a point where I'm not interested? I'm not keen to lay out cold hard cash on a property that I don't have a right to buy at a price that I have decided I can afford.

Uno my Uno.

Peregrinus wrote: »

Why would I spend money on commissioning a survey when I might be told, when I go back to the vendor "actually, the price has gone up", perhaps to a point where I'm not interested? I'm not keen to lay out cold hard cash on a property that I don't have a right to buy at a price that I have decided I can afford.

Indeed, although that would be pretty sharp practice by the vendor. Of course from the vendors perspective you'd have to ask the question why he should commit himself to a buyer who hasn't even done a survey yet and doesn't have finance in place. Particularly when the purchaser may then attempt to use the results of the survey to vary or vitiate the contract?

Vendors and purchasers may have different interests and an independent advisor might give different advice depending which side they were advising. Personally I think that not only is it reasonable but actually in everyone's interests to have surveys finance and as mush as possible in place pre-contract.