Quarantining Imports

Galvium Irredentum

Time for a contentious issue? If EU laws (loopholes according to some) prohibit import bans re the free movement of bees between member states (Isle of Man technically outside EU and has a 20 year import ban) - then would a second best solution be some isolated (possible?) quarantine centre where only bees coming through the centre can be imported? This would make them expensive no? It could be justified on disease grounds - people need to think outside the box sometimes...

Conmaicne Mara

I would not be in favour of imported bees at all. I know the local association here had some fast buck, sorry, buckfast bees interbreed with natives a good while back. The result from an experienced keeper was a type of bee that aggressive to make you want to get out of bees.

Galvium Irredentum

An as Conamara (Conmaicne Mara) tú? I'd have thought Buckfast would be ill-suited to the exposed climate! I'd say parts of the southeast would suit them best - they're overbred Italians mainly. I'm trying to foster debate really - the logistics, legality and cost of what I'm suggesting probably makes it a non-runner, especially as the Dept. of Ag doesn't get involved with bees really - There was a Teagasc apiary in Athenry and Wexford once upon a time; but I know the Athenry one in the Ag college had to be abandoned

conor t

But what diseases are you quarantining them for? It probably couldn't stand up to any scrutiny because any disease in the EU is already in Ireland

Galvium Irredentum

Are you sure this is the case? Do we have Acute Paralysis Virus? for example - The main aim is to make Ireland a refugium for AMM, the secondary one is to prevent diseases; many EU countries (France is good at it) find ways to circumvent apparent restrictions - the m.o. is to make imports prohibitive for anyone without the resources. Is it devious? yes - is it possible?

Conmaicne Mara

Galvium Irredentum wrote: »

An as Conamara (Conmaicne Mara) tú? I'd have thought Buckfast would be ill-suited to the exposed climate! I'd say parts of the southeast would suit them best - they're overbred Italians mainly. I'm trying to foster debate really - the logistics, legality and cost of what I'm suggesting probably makes it a non-runner, especially as the Dept. of Ag doesn't get involved with bees really - There was a Teagasc apiary in Athenry and Wexford once upon a time; but I know the Athenry one in the Ag college had to be abandoned

Details are hazy but no, they didn't suit the climate as well as the native bee.

I remember the positive aspects about beekeeping in Connemara being our geography, with the sea, mountains and prevailing winds doing a lot to keep introduced disease at bay. Ultimately things like varroa have arrived but it takes longer here.

Oldtree

To be honest, after the ash dieback debaucle to name one of many, I would hesitate to import but would be keener to see a internal breeding programme from what is here already.

Galvium Irredentum

An internal breeding programme? - more debate! Could we agree on the breeding goals? most of them I'd say. One of the reasons some beekeepers prefer hybrids/italians is their honey yield; how much they have to be stimulated or mollycoddled; and their other negative traits - robbing etc. are often underplayed. AMM do not have this huge yield potential. Should beekeepers breed desirable traits for other production measures? - propolis, wax. What I'm saying is there are other under-utilised hive products that could be bred for. To borrow an analogy from other livestock species - not being the Holstein-Friesian of the bee world what should we aim for?

Galvium Irredentum

obviously varroa resistance would be one breeding goal - doh!

Oldtree

With more than 90% of our food is imported, any product (honey, wax, wood for fuel) we can produce on this island is a bonus in my eyes. I kinda mean breeding from whatever bee stock exists currently on this island with no more introductions. I think that the main focus would be the home produced honey and the development of that brand rather than massively improving the bee stock.

Native Honey Bee

Not trying to create difficulties, but could someone define what is a Buckfast Bee and what are the characteristics that would allow this said bee to be positively identified?

conor t

Galvium Irredentum wrote: »

An internal breeding programme? - more debate! Could we agree on the breeding goals? most of them I'd say. One of the reasons some beekeepers prefer hybrids/italians is their honey yield; how much they have to be stimulated or mollycoddled; and their other negative traits - robbing etc. are often underplayed. AMM do not have this huge yield potential. Should beekeepers breed desirable traits for other production measures? - propolis, wax. What I'm saying is there are other under-utilised hive products that could be bred for. To borrow an analogy from other livestock species - not being the Holstein-Friesian of the bee world what should we aim for?

What should be bred is a good vigorous bee that will lay 2 deeps in summer and overwinter on 1 with a low swarming tendancy. But getting people to agree on this is the problem. (I was at a talk a while back and the fella giving the talk was convinced they should be breeding a bee that would only use 1 national deep).
I don't think you have the experience to make negative comments about other beeeds,

Native Honey Bee

conor t wrote: »

But what diseases are you quarantining them for? It probably couldn't stand up to any scrutiny because any disease in the EU is already in Ireland

If you care to reflect for a moment; you will perhaps realise it is your claim that all diseases in the EU are already in Ireland that will not survive scrutiny.
I assume in the above, you are referring to the contiguous member states in mainland Europe as the "EU". Logistically this landmass because of it's size, length of border and lack of isolation is more likely to be visited by disease or parasite than an offshore island such as Ireland. Quarantine and / or a ban on imports as appropriate are essential if Ireland is to avoid having such diseases or pests brought here.

Galvium Irredentum

conor t wrote: »

What should be bred is a good vigorous bee that will lay 2 deeps in summer and overwinter on 1 with a low swarming tendancy. But getting people to agree on this is the problem. (I was at a talk a while back and the fella giving the talk was convinced they should be breeding a bee that would only use 1 national deep).
I don't think you have the experience to make negative comments about other beeeds,

I mean you or your bees no malfeasance - I mean to neither romanticise (there's been a lot of introgression) or discredit the traits of any subspecies/hybrid variety. IMHO there's a higher order goal in question; AMM has been marginalised across most of it's previous range by those who deem honey yield the greatest measure of success. It needs refugia; especially where climate and environmental factors actually suit it's traits. It's part of biodiversity really; providing refugia for certain genetic traits which have their own niche - and we should fight for this higher order goal!

Galvium Irredentum

We should also fight for changes to the CAP in the EU - I'm a small landowner and it's wrong that I get a subsidy for just owning land. IMHO the CAP should be reoriented towards compensation/incentives for the promotion of biodiverse habitats; not the monocultural pesticide-addled farming we currently promote - rant at the real enemy over!

Username John

Galvium Irredentum wrote: »

We should also fight for changes to the CAP in the EU - I'm a small landowner and it's wrong that I get a subsidy for just owning land. IMHO the CAP should be reoriented towards compensation/incentives for the promotion of biodiverse habitats; not the monocultural pesticide-addled farming we currently promote - rant at the real enemy over!

Tell me, who is the real enemy again?

Oldtree

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We will keep this civil please.

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Galvium Irredentum

I think the biodiversity debate is probably going off topic a bit (my meandering mind); and deserves some further thread down the road - too tired to think at the mo; but basically it's debatable if we've passed a threshold or tipping point where we've put too much pressure on ecosystems to sustain our current ag methods… (we may be our own worst enemy in the long term! and no I actually am a climate change skeptic)

conor t

Native Honey Bee wrote: »

If you care to reflect for a moment; you will perhaps realise it is your claim that all diseases in the EU are already in Ireland that will not survive scrutiny.
I assume in the above, you are referring to the contiguous member states in mainland Europe as the "EU". Logistically this landmass because of it's size, length of border and lack of isolation is more likely to be visited by disease or parasite than an offshore island such as Ireland. Quarantine and / or a ban on imports as appropriate are essential if Ireland is to avoid having such diseases or pests brought here.

what are the diseases/pests you are talking about that could enter the eu

Galvium Irredentum wrote: »

I mean you or your bees no malfeasance - I mean to neither romanticise (there's been a lot of introgression) or discredit the traits of any subspecies/hybrid variety. IMHO there's a higher order goal in question; AMM has been marginalised across most of it's previous range by those who deem honey yield the greatest measure of success. It needs refugia; especially where climate and environmental factors actually suit it's traits. It's part of biodiversity really; providing refugia for certain genetic traits which have their own niche - and we should fight for this higher order goal!

in fairness honeybees are called honeybees for a reason, and its reasonable to think if the breed is not constantly being improved people will move elsewhere in favour of a higher production breed. btw I keep irish bees, just not sure if the breeding goals many people have will result in the most productive breed. if you run a few hives with no excluder you would be surprised the amount of brood they rear in the right conditions.
also in order to reduce possible imports of bees it would make sense to reduce the cost of nucs here, if nucs were 80-100 euro who is going to bother trying to import bees because there would be no money to be made

Native Honey Bee

conor t wrote: »

what are the diseases/pests you are talking about that could enter the eu



in fairness honeybees are called honeybees for a reason, and its reasonable to think if the breed is not constantly being improved people will move elsewhere in favour of a higher production breed. btw I keep irish bees, just not sure if the breeding goals many people have will result in the most productive breed. if you run a few hives with no excluder you would be surprised the amount of brood they rear in the right conditions.
also in order to reduce possible imports of bees it would make sense to reduce the cost of nucs here, if nucs were 80-100 euro who is going to bother trying to import bees because there would be no money to be made

Thank you for responding. That you would ask the above was predictable and I'm sure the ambiguity in your post is unintentional. Very little investigation is required to identify the range of pests and diseases of both the plant and animal kingdoms which are, or are liable to become established in Europe. The so called Isle of Wight disease, Varroa Destructor, Dutch Elm Disease and the present die back in ash and oak (in UK) are all examples of imported diseases and pests. Small hive beetle and Tropilaelaps and various apian virus diseases are spreading throughout the world, a few are already in Europe, so let us exploit our island status to keep them out of here.
You impress me as being an intelligent and capable individual who would be well able to expand on the above as necessary, also it is clear from your post you understand why bees are imported; which is simply to make money, by people who are of the "happy to cut down the apple tree to get the apples" mentality. Often they are not Irish and have no commitment to this country or it's flora and fauna and and misleading novice beekeepers here is profitable and "fun".
The native Irish honeybee (AMM) selectively bred, will in this country outperform any other sub-species of bee or any mongrel / cross bred bee. This indigenous bee has evolved here over countless thousands of years and no matter how bad the season might be, it will always provide some surplus and the bee is self sustaining, i.e. it is unnecessary to import expensive queens yearly to maintain a degree of heterosis before Mendelian laws make a mockery of the practice.

bpmurray

It's interesting that one condition that Slovenia insisted upon (and got) as a condition of joining the EU was a total, absolute and permanent ban on any bee imports. Their bees are good producers and very docile, so they don't want to take the risk of destroying the industry. Clearly the diseases in Ireland were imported - let's not make it any worse.