Employer/Reference issue resulting in retraction of new job offer

roger brennan

I recently applied for a new job which i sucessfully got under condition of the completion of 2 references. I specifically requested that they were not contacted till I had a chance to give notice as my current employer was on leave for the weekend. Basically my new employer contacted my current employer first thing on a monday (position was offered 5.30pm friday) before I had a chance to. My employer was obviously annoyed and confused about the situation and refused to give a reference. After I made contact with my current employer and explained what had happened they agreed to give the reference. I was on annual leave at the time and assumed all was ok at that point. When I returned I got a phone call from "New employer" saying that my current employer was unwilling to part take fully in the line of questioning for the reference and therefore as one of my references was incomplete, they were retracting the job offer. I immediately called my current employer and told them what had happened. They stated that in hindsight they should have been more co operative with the reference and were willing to do it again. At this stage my what was to be "New employer" had moved on to the next candidate and my current employer filled my position with a part time member of staff. I now find myself with no employment through no fault of my own. Basically Im wondering do I have any legal rights in this situation?

No Pants

Have you resigned from your current job? Have you been fired? If not, then go back to work on Monday.

roger brennan

I gave 2 weeks notice(resigned) which leads up to tomorrow and as far as my current employer is concerned I have left the company. It was a part time position which i get rostered various hours. At this stage its going to be difficult to go back to the Job in light of what has happened too. I was not fired and I have yet to receive my P45. The biggest problem is that my employer mislead the new employer into thinking I had left the company when in fact I was just moving. This seemed to cause confusion and seemed to have given the new employer the impression that I was lying on my CV as to my current employment status. I feel it was done in a very sneaky way intentionally to hinder the reference check.

Little CuChulainn

roger brennan wrote: »

The biggest problem is that my employer mislead the new employer into thinking I had left the company when in fact I was just moving. This seemed to cause confusion and seemed to have given the new employer the impression that I was lying on my CV as to my current employment status. I feel it was done in a very sneaky way intentionally to hinder the reference check.

I don't understand this. Moving where? You had given your notice so you were leaving were you not?

roger brennan

I know it all sounds a bit confusing. The timeline goes like this..Friday got job offer and accepted on condition that I had a few days to contact my boss and give notice..this was agreed in principle with new employer so i forwarded on referees names for refernece check which should have been carried out midweek of following week to give me ample time to chat my current employer..couldnt contact boss to give notice till monday..that same monday the new employers contacted my current boss looking for reference before i had an opportunity to speak to my current boss (they got to them first against!)..This pissed off my current employer and they refused to play ball and give a proper reference. after i spoke to my current boss they agreed to give me a proper reference second time round but actually didn't. so new employers decided to move on to next candidate..and my boss gave my position to somebody else leaving me with no job...hope this makes sense:-(

when i say 'moving" i mean moving jobs. if my boss had just followed the procedures then there would be no problem but they hinderanced my Reference check and now i have no job. thats the issue im looking at.

Arthur Beesley

Can you clarify what these 'procedures' are please?

roger brennan

the questioning during the phone reference check. My employer felt that the questions werent relevant so would not answer them and decided just to give them a straight forward traditional reference which was of a high standard. it seems that this was not suficient enough for the newemployer thus deeming the check incomplete. My first reference just followed the guidelines and it was accepted!...corporate craziness

Dangel4x4

roger brennan wrote: »

if my boss had just followed the procedures then there would be no problem but they hinderanced my Reference check and now i have no job. thats the issue im looking at.

Here's a "procedure": maybe next time you go job-hunting don't use your current employer as a reference without clearing it with him first or giving your notice?

What did you expect him to do when he got an out-of-the-blue phone call looking for a reference?

SpaceTime

I had this once from a potential employer. They rang my previous employer (who I know very well) and asked utterly ridiculous questions which they felt were a breech of data protection issues - information about salary etc. They also wanted information about the pervious employer's clients which they were not prepared to discuss at all (and understandably so).

I didn't get the job either, but I was never sure where I stood legally. I was more annoyed with the recruiter than anything else.

Little CuChulainn

I don't really see how your old boss did anything wrong. He's not under any obligation to structure his reference to suit your new employer. He gave an honest and genuine reference from the sounds of it.

gordongekko

Dangel4x4 wrote: »

Here's a "procedure": maybe next time you go job-hunting don't use your current employer as a reference without clearing it with him first or giving your notice?

What did you expect him to do when he got an out-of-the-blue phone call looking for a reference?

Last thing I would do is tell my current employer I was job hunting. It never goes down well and shows a lack of commitment. Bad form on the employers behalf to shaft the employee by giving a bad reference and also accepting their resignation.

Dangel4x4

gordongekko wrote: »

Last thing I would do is tell my current employer I was job hunting. It never goes down well and shows a lack of commitment. Bad form on the employers behalf to shaft the employee by giving a bad reference and also accepting their resignation.

Depends on the situation.

Someone might be on short hours, employer might be struggling financially. It could be to everybody's advantage to have someone move on.

Personally, using a current employer as a reference is a no-no in pretty much any scenario. Secure the new job using other references, and then hand in notice...

roger brennan

I had arranged with new employer to give me a time frame on when they were contacting my current employer. we agreed on roughly 7 days from the initial offer. the problem arrose when they did not agree to that and stupidly rang the next working day after my initial offer and managed to get to my boss before i had a chance to give notice and ask for reference. In my opinion it was a combination of HR in the new company jumping the gun and my current employer "throwing the toys out of the pram" because they were in the dark as to what was happening. And when you are part time getting less and less hours its perfectly natural to go looking for something else. So that wouldnt have been an issue.

Dangel4x4

So now you know how to approach things next time

My employer...decided just to give them a straight forward traditional reference which was of a high standard

Your employer gave you a good reference as you say, so what are you seeking to accomplish here?

SpaceTime

To be honest, the recruiter sounds quite unreasonable though.
You can't really expect a third party to comply with your form filling exercise. If they provided a good reference, that's all that they can be expected to do really.

I've seen that before though with particularly bureaucratic HR processes both as a manager and an employee. I remember doing a reference for someone who was applying to an overseas airline and they wanted me to send them copies of my passport and fill out long forms and stuff.

(I don't work in aviation they were moving from a totally different industry)

I filled them in because I wanted the person to definitely get the job, but the recruiter was really being totally over the top.

gordongekko

Dangel4x4 wrote: »

Depends on the situation.

Someone might be on short hours, employer might be struggling financially. It could be to everybody's advantage to have someone move on.

Personally, using a current employer as a reference is a no-no in pretty much any scenario. Secure the new job using other references, and then hand in notice...

I tried that. Straight away it was questioned why I was not giving my current employer. The interviewer thought I had something to hide and was insistent on having current employer as reference

Arthur Beesley

roger brennan wrote: »

the questioning during the phone reference check. My employer felt that the questions werent relevant so would not answer them and decided just to give them a straight forward traditional reference which was of a high standard. it seems that this was not suficient enough for the newemployer thus deeming the check incomplete. My first reference just followed the guidelines and it was accepted!...corporate craziness

Why should e be expected to follow a procedure' he has no knowledge of or control of?

It sounds like the organization are obsessed with 'precedures' and highly inflexible (rejecting you initially because of the incomplete reference, then their own non traditional reference procedure then ultimately rejecting you). Plus they are the ones that contacted the referee ahead of schedule.

As a courtesy, did you (or this company) give your current manager an overview of the reference 'procedure' in advance of the call or an explanation of the relevance of the questions?

you should be mad with the company that opted not to employ you. your current manager has no obligation to give a reference, it sounds like he gave you a good reference but they were too inflexible to interpret it correctly.

CrookedJack

gordongekko wrote: »

I tried that. Straight away it was questioned why I was not giving my current employer. The interviewer thought I had something to hide and was insistent on having current employer as reference

That's bizarre, IT's pretty standard not to give your current employer as a reference for this very reason.

If it wasn't for the fact that you are now out off work I'd say it's not a bad thing that the new job fell through - they sound like a nightmare to work for.

Dangel4x4

gordongekko wrote: »

I tried that. Straight away it was questioned why I was not giving my current employer. The interviewer thought I had something to hide and was insistent on having current employer as reference

"I have no problem with you contacting my current employer for a reference if I have a written job offer from you."

Most interviewers should understand why you don't want your current employer contacted at the interview stage.

If they don't, you have to ask yourself are they people you want to work for?

Manach

My understanding is the only obligation from the last employer if a reference is given is to be honest. Otherwise it raises issues if the new employee fails to live up to that reference.

roger brennan

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

Why should e be expected to follow a procedure' he has no knowledge of or control of?

It sounds like the organization are obsessed with 'precedures' and highly inflexible (rejecting you initially because of the incomplete reference, then their own non traditional reference procedure then ultimately rejecting you). Plus they are the ones that contacted the referee ahead of schedule.

As a courtesy, did you (or this company) give your current manager an overview of the reference 'procedure' in advance of the call or an explanation of the relevance of the questions?

you should be mad with the company that opted not to employ you. your current manager has no obligation to give a reference, it sounds like he gave you a good reference but they were too inflexible to interpret it correctly.

I think you are bang on the money here. The HR department were completely unreasonable when i asked if I could chat to my current employer and reschedule the reference check as my employer was willing to do so. I guess it was a comedy of errors from start to finish with me ultimately the one at loss....Bullet dodged getting away from both parties I think!

Dangel4x4

Manach wrote: »

My understanding is the only obligation from the last employer if a reference is given is to be honest. Otherwise it raises issues if the new employee fails to live up to that reference.

A lot of employers will just give a "Joe Bloggs worked as a drain cleaner at Acme Ltd. from 01/01/01 to 31/12/12. Regards, Mr Evil Boss" - mostly because they don't want to be caught up in someone else's drama when things go pear-shaped.

nc19

Maybe the new employer was afraid there would be some insider trading going on.....

goz83

Requesting a reference from current employer is ridiculous, as the inquiry could cost someone their job, as has happened here. I would only give details of current employer, as a reference, if the job was in the bag and and the reference was just a rubber stamping exercise. I would want it in writing. I don't think anything can be done here OP. Maybe writing to the managing director, going above HR. Nothing to lose.

SpaceTime

Dangel4x4 wrote: »

A lot of employers will just give a "Joe Bloggs worked as a drain cleaner at Acme Ltd. from 01/01/01 to 31/12/12. Regards, Mr Evil Boss" - mostly because they don't want to be caught up in someone else's drama when things go pear-shaped.

Some large companies are like that for all references! They'll just do that to avoid any legal implications.

roger brennan

i had been offered the job on the condition of completion of references. Doubts were cast on the credibility of my employment by my current boss at the time of check therefore in my opinion making my new employer suspicious of my CV. My employer has since sent me a written reference which is of a very high standard as they know that they were wrong in what they said in initial reference check. Ultimately im still without a job and my employment credibility us now tarnished with the new company. Therefore I can never approach them for a job again!

Fred Swanson

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