Letter in the door, no explanation.

Steviemoyne

Note: If this post in any way breaks the charter (upon looking at it and my post I believe it does not) please tell me and I will make every effort to remove the part(s) of the post that conflict, I don't think I've ever used this sub forum before.

So my mother just got a lovely letter in the door saying that she owes the Department of Social Protection a 3 figure sum.

The letter is unsigned and makes no explanation as to why the amount is owed. It states that:
"The Department has legal powers which permit the attachment of earnings or a bank account of a person who owes a debt and is not making efforts to repay this debt".

My mother has no clue where this is coming from as she is out of the system for the past year or two. The only thing that comes to mind is the below:

Back in 2000 she was on Family Income Supplement. She then went on to a Fás scheme and she made attempts to see the DoSP to inquire as to what to do with the FIS book. She was told to keep the book and that it was hers until the book runs out and to keep receiving the payments.

About 6 months after that the DoSP sent a letter saying she was overpayed (due to being on the Fás course and still collecting the FIS payments as she was told was ok) and she sent them a letter (registered post) to them saying she already offered to give the book back and was told not to do so and to keep receiving the payments. And if there was an error it was on their part and she was unable to make repayments at such a late stage no matter the amount due to being a single parent (of myself at the time). Which is the truth.

---

Since that letter was sent no further contact was attempted by the DoSP, 14 years later in pops this letter in the door with no explanation. (if that is what it is relating to).

I suppose I'm really looking for advice on her behalf in how to approach this and what would be the best course of action? Even now we're not exactly "well off" and barely struggle to get by yet they are threatening to take money directly from her bank account which would only make our quality of life worse.

Cas86

Steviemoyne wrote: »

Note: If this post in any way breaks the charter (upon looking at it and my post I believe it does not) please tell me and I will make every effort to remove the part(s) of the post that conflict, I don't think I've ever used this sub forum before.

So my mother just got a lovely letter in the door saying that she owes the Department of Social Protection a 3 figure sum.

The letter is unsigned and makes no explanation as to why the amount is owed. It states that:
"The Department has legal powers which permit the attachment of earnings or a bank account of a person who owes a debt and is not making efforts to repay this debt".

My mother has no clue where this is coming from as she is out of the system for the past year or two. The only thing that comes to mind is the below:

Back in 2000 she was on Family Income Supplement. She then went on to a Fás scheme and she made attempts to see the DoSP to inquire as to what to do with the FIS book. She was told to keep the book and that it was hers until the book runs out and to keep receiving the payments.

About 6 months after that the DoSP sent a letter saying she was overpayed (due to being on the Fás course and still collecting the FIS payments as she was told was ok) and she sent them a letter (registered post) to them saying she already offered to give the book back and was told not to do so and to keep receiving the payments. And if there was an error it was on their part and she was unable to make repayments at such a late stage no matter the amount due to being a single parent (of myself at the time). Which is the truth.

---

Since that letter was sent no further contact was attempted by the DoSP, 14 years later in pops this letter in the door with no explanation. (if that is what it is relating to).

I suppose I'm really looking for advice on her behalf in how to approach this and what would be the best course of action? Even now we're not exactly "well off" and barely struggle to get by yet they are threatening to take money directly from her bank account which would only make our quality of life worse.

I assume this letter is not requesting bank a/c details? Was it sent by registered post? Although unsigned, are there contact details, as in a case officer? From the details given It seems a bit suspect....

Steviemoyne

There's a small department of social protection logo centered in the header with address and phone number in english to the left and the same in irish to the right.

The footer has a statement mentioning that anything contained in the letter and terms of settlement agreed or offered does not "prejudice the right of the minister to institute or recommend legal proceedings against you in this matter".

The letter appears to be above board, they even have the extension number under the "LoCall" (no to 1890 anyone?:D) number.

Oh it ends with "Yours sincerely, Debt Recovery Unit".

Cas86

Steviemoyne wrote: »

There's a small department of social protection logo centered in the header with address and phone number in english to the left and the same in irish to the right.

The footer has a statement mentioning that anything contained in the letter and terms of settlement agreed or offered does not "prejudice the right of the minister to institute or recommend legal proceedings against you in this matter".

The letter appears to be above board, they even have the extension number under the "LoCall" (no to 1890 anyone?:D) number.

Oh it ends with "Yours sincerely, Debt Recovery Unit".

Your mam should ring the number and ask to speak to someone in the debt recovery unit first thing Monday! Shocking that they'd go back 14 years to recover money with a letter out of the blue? I would think the statement that they can take the money from your bank account would be used as the last resort!

Balagan

This recouping of overpayments from former recipients was in the news in April.

Former welfare recipients told overpayments will be seized
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/former-welfare-recipients-told-overpayments-will-be-seized-1.1770441

mikemac1

This was covered by a few phone in radio shows.

There is a department, I believe it's in Sligo trawling the records and trying to get back overpayments.

Doesn't matter if it was 20 years ago they want the money. The letter is probably genuine OP. Your mother can phone if she wishes and work something out

Steviemoyne

Was just looking at that, Citizens advice also have a nice guide on it here: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/irish_social_welfare_system/claiming_a_social_welfare_payment/recovery_of_social_welfare_overpayments.html

They state the following:

When is repayment reduced or cancelled?
The Department of Social Protection makes every effort to recover the overpayment in full. The Department may reduce or cancel an overpayment if it occurred because it:

Failed to act within a reasonable period of time on information it received about you
Made an mistake that you could not reasonably be expected to have noticed
If you think that the Department has made an error, you should bring the matter to the Department's attention as soon as possible.

To me it comes under both points and the last line is probably the best way to proceed.
Edit: Though the inclusion of the word "may" worries me somewhat as to having a leg to stand on.

gugleguy

Imperative to get you have your mother phone in OP.

Flippyfloppy

Still, maybe cross check the LO-call number with the official one from the internet before you call anyone!

Steviemoyne

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

Still, maybe cross check the LO-call number with the official one from the internet before you call anyone!

Good advice, however the number matches one appearing on the Citizens Information website. Seems legit folks.

I have numerous other things I'd love to say on the matter but I'm afraid the would conflict with the charter: "5. This is not a forum for critiscizing Government Departments or Semi-State Bodies". Ah well.

mrsbyrne

OP did your mother recently apply for a SW payment? You imply that she didn't but these overpayments are most often uncovered when someone applies for a scheme after a number of years.

Steviemoyne

Nope, she's got a solid job and has been out of the system for the past year, year and a half.

mrsbyrne

Steviemoyne wrote: »

Nope, she's got a solid job and has been out of the system for the past year, year and a half.

Is it offering her the chance to Appeal? If it is, I would Appeal it setting out the grounds you mentioned in the OP and you can quote the part another poster mentioned from the legislation about an unreasonable amount of time having passed. It won't hurt.

Steviemoyne

No mention of an appeal. Just to contact them to agree settlement, the plan is to ring them Monday and sort it out.

Midnight Sundance

Did you manage to sort it out? I've just gotten a letter the same as yours and I rang them. Turns out it's over 10 years old . Like can they really go back that far even though if they owe you money they will only go bak about 5 years

Steviemoyne

I've heard no more from my mother on the matter. I figure she's handed it over to Mabs to deal with. I can only assume that what I mentioned previously about them not acting within a reasonable amount of time is the best course of action here.

Who in their right mind goes seeking a debt that they have ignored for 10 years+? I can't speak to the legality of their claim to a debt but the time scale is just mental.

Midnight Sundance

Steviemoyne wrote: »

I've heard no more from my mother on the matter. I figure she's handed it over to Mabs to deal with. I can only assume that what I mentioned previously about them not acting within a reasonable amount of time is the best course of action here.

Who in their right mind goes seeking a debt that they have ignored for 10 years+? I can't speak to the legality of their claim to a debt but the time scale is just mental.

Thanks for your reply.
I'm going to see if I can do something about it. It's not even a huge amount but it's the principle if in to be honest.
I think waiting 10 years to contact me is pretty ridiculous too .

logically

Would these debts not be statute barred at this point?

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/personal_finance/debt/glossary_of_debt_terms.html

Steviemoyne

logically wrote: »

Would these debts not be statute barred at this point?

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/personal_finance/debt/glossary_of_debt_terms.html

Seems that way, CTRL+F and "State" or "Debt" didn't turn up anything to contradict that, except in the case where the debt is not statute-barred and is "acknowledged".

Again, I have no idea of the legality involved but that statute does make a very strong case if it ever was presented (From my own, possibly misunderstood understanding).

Full Statute of Limitations.