Got summons for speeding but no fine

V.W.L 11

this is the first i knew of it,what can i do???

challengemaster

Realistically nothing, just show up for court. You can try explain to the judge - you may only have to pay 80 + normal penalty points.

V.W.L 11

challengemaster wrote: »

Realistically nothing, just show up for court. You can try explain to the judge - you may only have to pay 80 + normal penalty points.

even though i got no fine???strange

challengemaster

Sometimes they genuinely get lost in the post. Problem is, so many people have used that excuse at this stage - the judge is nearly expecting to hear it. It'll depend on the judge on the day.

corktina

why oh why are they still not sending them recorded delivery?

challengemaster

corktina wrote: »

why oh why are they still not sending them recorded delivery?

Probably for this very reason. Lost mail = we can get extra money out of the poor sod.

djimi

challengemaster wrote: »

Sometimes they genuinely get lost in the post. Problem is, so many people have used that excuse at this stage - the judge is nearly expecting to hear it. It'll depend on the judge on the day.

What challenge could a court possibly have? You say you didnt receive the notice, they say you did, you ask them to prove it. Its not sent by registered post so they have no way to show that you ever received the notice.

R.O.R

corktina wrote: »

why oh why are they still not sending them recorded delivery?

The Postal Rule, which is still part of Irish Law.

V.W.L 11

brother said the other day he was caught in the company van,no fine yet but expects one,what is the procedure there anyone???

No Pants

R.O.R wrote: »

The Postal Rule, which is still part of Irish Law.

Why does record of postage and registered post even exist then?

Chimaera

V.W.L 11 wrote: »

brother said the other day he was caught in the company van,no fine yet but expects one,what is the procedure there anyone???

If he receives a fixed-penalty notice he turns up at the post office and pays it. A few weeks later he'll receive a letter from the RSA telling him he has two penalty points.

In your case, there are two possibilities:

If it was a camera that caught you, the notice is probably lost in the post and the followup is a summons.

The other, more serious one is that you were caught by a Garda doing a roadside check and they decided to take you straight to court rather than issue a fixed penalty notice.

Does the summons letter give any indication of the circumstances of the offence?

Alan_007_

R.O.R wrote: »

The Postal Rule, which is still part of Irish Law.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the postal rule only referred to the formation of a contract.
Since speeding fines are a fine, and therefore not an offer to form a contract, surely the postal rule doesn't apply?

V.W.L 11

Chimaera wrote: »

If he receives a fixed-penalty notice he turns up at the post office and pays it. A few weeks later he'll receive a letter from the RSA telling him he has two penalty points.

In your case, there are two possibilities:

If it was a camera that caught you, the notice is probably lost in the post and the followup is a summons.

The other, more serious one is that you were caught by a Garda doing a roadside check and they decided to take you straight to court rather than issue a fixed penalty notice.

Does the summons letter give any indication of the circumstances of the offence?

it came from a go safe van that is as much as I was able to find out,everything else is on the summons.are those things even calibrated properly???
In my brothers case would the company wh own the van pass on the information to the fixed charge fines office or how does that work when he doesn't own it?

Alan_007_

R.O.R wrote: »

The Postal Rule, which is still part of Irish Law.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the postal rule only applied to the formation of a contract.
Since speeding fines are a fine, and therefore not an offer to form a contract, surely the postal rule doesn't apply?

V.W.L 11

Alan_007_ wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the postal rule only referred to the formation of a contract.
Since speeding fines are a fine, and therefore not an offer to form a contract, surely the postal rule doesn't apply?

the government would see it as a contract to give them money :rolleyes:

Esel

Freemen of the land do not agree to contract!

slimjimmc

Esel wrote: »

Freemen of the land do not agree to contract!

Apparently they don't agree to living in the real world either!

Del2005

corktina wrote: »

why oh why are they still not sending them recorded delivery?

A lot of people simply refuse to accept any type of registered letter. So why pay €5+ for something which gets the same result for €0.60

R.O.R wrote: »

The Postal Rule, which is still part of Irish Law.

How do they prove it was posted though? Unless they've a picture of each individual letter being posted it could conceivability not have made it to the letter box

djimi

V.W.L 11 wrote: »

it came from a go safe van that is as much as I was able to find out,everything else is on the summons.are those things even calibrated properly???
In my brothers case would the company wh own the van pass on the information to the fixed charge fines office or how does that work when he doesn't own it?

Company gets the notice, nominates your brother for fine/points.

challengemaster

djimi wrote: »

What challenge could a court possibly have? You say you didnt receive the notice, they say you did, you ask them to prove it. Its not sent by registered post so they have no way to show that you ever received the notice.

It's not a criminal offence so I'd assume there's no onus on the court to prove guilt. Judges discretion.

djimi

challengemaster wrote: »

It's not a criminal offence so I'd assume there's no onus on the court to prove guilt. Judges discretion.

Its not about proving guilt though. The judge claimed you got a notice, you said you didnt. Surely its up to the accuser to show that you got the notice? Its not like you can prove that you didnt...

challengemaster

Don't think there's any onus on them to prove it.

djimi

Strange system. What else can they claim to be true without any proof whatsoever?

Del2005

djimi wrote: »

Strange system. What else can they claim to be true without any proof whatsoever?

It's the same for the actual speeding offence itself, the Gardaí don't require any evidence that you where speeding to get a conviction.

V.W.L 11

djimi wrote: »

Company gets the notice, nominates your brother for fine/points.

so the company nominate him and then they reissue it in his name is it???

_Kaiser_

djimi wrote: »

Strange system. What else can they claim to be true without any proof whatsoever?

Pretty much anything, the Garda's "word" being enough to prosecute/convict - despite AGS being little more than a private security force for the well-connected as we've seen more and more of in recent times.

V.W.L 11

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Pretty much anything, the Garda's "word" being enough to prosecute/convict - despite AGS being little more than a private security force for the well-connected as we've seen more and more of in recent times.

that is fact!!! :rolleyes:

V.W.L 11

anyone here know from what distance can a go safe van detect you from???do you have to actually pass the thing over the speed limit before it will pick it up????

PeteK*

Keep us ''posted''.. Lol.. I bet the judge will throw it out.

V.W.L 11

PeteK* wrote: »

Keep us ''posted''.. Lol.. I bet the judge will throw it out.

kjbsrah1

The fine comes to the address of the registered owner of the vehicle. There is a part on the form that says that if that named registered owner of the vehicle was not the driver at the time of the vehicle being caught speeding, then that registered owner is to complete the details of the driver and return it to the fines office/where ever the fine was issued from within a given time frame. The fine is then reissued to the now named actual driver of the vehicle and it proceeds from there.

I know this because thats exactly how it happened to me. I only paid the fine yesterday

V.W.L 11

kjbsrah1 wrote: »

The fine comes to the address of the registered owner of the vehicle. There is a part on the form that says that if that named registered owner of the vehicle was not the driver at the time of the vehicle being caught speeding, then that registered owner is to complete the details of the driver and return it to the fines office/where ever the fine was issued from within a given time frame. The fine is then reissued to the now named actual driver of the vehicle and it proceeds from there.

I know this because thats exactly how it happened to me. I only paid the fine yesterday

thanks for that OP,were you much over the limit???80 quid and 2 points = :mad:

ironclaw

V.W.L 11 wrote: »

anyone here know from what distance can a go safe van detect you from???do you have to actually pass the thing over the speed limit before it will pick it up????

Mathematically, its roughly twice the width of the road from the rear of the van. So within 40m I would consider the 'danger' zone, 15m being the average.

ezra_pound

V.W.L 11 wrote: »

thanks for that OP,were you much over the limit???80 quid and 2 points = :mad:

It will be four points on conviction.

wonski

corktina wrote: »

why oh why are they still not sending them recorded delivery?

djimi wrote: »

What challenge could a court possibly have? You say you didnt receive the notice, they say you did, you ask them to prove it. Its not sent by registered post so they have no way to show that you ever received the notice.

No Pants wrote: »

Why does record of postage and registered post even exist then?

Del2005 wrote: »

A lot of people simply refuse to accept any type of registered letter. So why pay €5+ for something which gets the same result for €0.60



How do they prove it was posted though? Unless they've a picture of each individual letter being posted it could conceivability not have made it to the letter box

Just to point something out - the registered, signed for letter is not a proof of anything - it is only a proof you received a letter, but it does not say what the letter was;)

In short, it proves nothing. If the office sends an empty envelope by mistake and you signed for it, is it good enough to prosecute?

There is no point in paying extra money for something that doesn't work.

Letters generally don't get lost - AnPost is very efficient, and the only reason drivers don't get the notice is that they don't notify Shannon of the change of address.

challengemaster

wonski wrote: »

Letters generally don't get lost - AnPost is very efficient, and the only reason drivers don't get the notice is that they don't notify Shannon of the change of address.

Well that's a load of bollix, I had post lost just last week.

V.W.L 11

ironclaw wrote: »

Mathematically, its roughly twice the width of the road from the rear of the van. So within 40m I would consider the 'danger' zone, 15m being the average.

so if he was just around a blind bend game over???!

wonski

challengemaster wrote: »

Well that's a load of bollix, I had post lost just last week.

Never happened to me in 6 years, don't know anybody it happened to. You must have been unlucky.

Like I said registered or not makes no difference at the end. Just adds to the overall cost of postage.

redtelephone

kjbsrah1 wrote: »

The fine comes to the address of the registered owner of the vehicle. There is a part on the form that says that if that named registered owner of the vehicle was not the driver at the time of the vehicle being caught speeding, then that registered owner is to complete the details of the driver and return it to the fines office/where ever the fine was issued from within a given time frame. The fine is then reissued to the now named actual driver of the vehicle and it proceeds from there.

I know this because thats exactly how it happened to me. I only paid the fine yesterday

Yeah that's what happened me a few years ago too. AFAIK if the registered owner fails to nominate who was driving at the time, he or she (the registered owner) gets the points, so the pressure is on them to name the actual driver. Even though I've heard that a registered owner has never been given points, I can't imagine many bosses taking the chance.:eek:

Themadhouse

I got a summons today and never got the fine which was sent in feb according to the guard I spoke to this morning. She said if a letter in not delivered it will be returned. On the summons letter there is no return addy....
I am raging.

Zubeneschamali

djimi wrote: »

What challenge could a court possibly have?

No challenge needed, if the judge doesn't believe you, they say "Guilty, next case", all over.

The Dagda

V.W.L 11 wrote: »

this is the first i knew of it,what can i do???

Where is the court?
First thing I would do is google the court and see what the sitting judges' attitude is to the defence of "no fine received".

Should help you decide whether or not to engage a solicitor.