Which situation is better?

Teach30

I am currently teaching 16 hrs in a private school. I am non dept paid I get paid only for hours I do so that means if I am out sick or covering orals i do not get paid. I am the only teacher of my subject however I have been informed I will never be made permanent but I can teach there until I retire.

So would a Fixed term or RPT post in another school for one year be better for me? I am asking as I have interviews for the following coming up and I know that if I do get offered the posts I will have to make my mind up v quickly.

I get frustrated thinking about the future, I have been teaching for many years and put so much work into my classes yet I do not receive the same rights as my Dept paid colleagues. Perhaps I have answered my own question here, however I do realise I have a job and I am grateful for it.

Thanks for reading.

whiteandlight

Are you pensionable? If not it's a no brainier, get a department paid job in another school

rainbowtrout

Do you get paid for the summer holidays? How long are you there? You might not be made permanent but you can still get a CID as a privately paid teacher.

Teach30

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Do you get paid for the summer holidays? How long are you there? You might not be made permanent but you can still get a CID as a privately paid teacher.

No I do not get paid for holidays and I have no pension. I am unsure about getting a CID there are other teachers in a similar situation teaching in the school a lot longer than me who have not received a CID. I am also not on an increment scale.

The union is not much use as they are never very sure about privately paid teachers.

I really don't know should I take the plunge and just leave?

rainbowtrout

Teach30 wrote: »

No I do not get paid for holidays and I have no pension. I am unsure about getting a CID there are other teachers in a similar situation teaching in the school a lot longer than me who have not received a CID. I am also not on an increment scale.

The union is not much use as they are never very sure about privately paid teachers.

I really don't know should I take the plunge and just leave?

I wonder though is it a case of the school not awarding CIDs and getting away with it because no one chased it up. I know a friend of mine teaches in a fee paying school (she is Dept paid) and teachers in that school went after their CIDs when they were privately paid and got them.

The fact that you are not getting a pension or increment or holiday pay makes it hard in the long run.

Teach30

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I wonder though is it a case of the school not awarding CIDs and getting away with it because no one chased it up. I know a friend of mine teaches in a fee paying school (she is Dept paid) and teachers in that school went after their CIDs when they were privately paid and got them.

The fact that you are not getting a pension or increment or holiday pay makes it hard in the long run.

I know I suppose I am very lucky to be employed but it really seems like no one cares for my subject or me as a teacher. I sometimes don't see the point in going that extra mile be it through extra curricular or otherwise as I know it is of no use to me I will never get any further than I have.

I feel depressed about facing back there in August. Sorry about the moan!

seavill

Well as you said in your first post and the last line of your last post confirms it you already know the answer to your question

TheDriver

I wonder is the fact that you are effectively let go each June related to no CID, bit like someone subbing per hour...

rainbowtrout

TheDriver wrote: »

I wonder is the fact that you are effectively let go each June related to no CID, bit like someone subbing per hour...

I'm pretty sure I read in one of the circulars/agreements (don't remember which there are so many) last year that a 3 month break in service, as in the summer break in teaching, would not constitute a break in contract if the person was employed back in the same job within 3 months. Actually I'd say it was written specifically for teachers who are being employed on consecutive fixed term contracts.

it could have been a case that went to the Labour Relations Commission.

EDIT: Found it:

http://employmentrightsireland.com/tag/cid/

http://educationlawireland.com/teachers-fixed-term-contracts-the-essentials/

Teach30

Thanks rainbowtrout you for that info it is v interesting, I have never actually signed a contract so I have no idea what my terms are. If I return to the school in august I will most certainly ask for a copy.

It still leaves the question is it in my interests to hang on for another while or should I be applying for fixed term posts. Taking a leap into the unknown is v difficult especially as If I stay in the school I will continue to build relationships and it will become more and more difficult to leave as the years go by.

Also it should be noted that the teacher before me was there for 20 years, and was never made permanent... That really depresses me I don't want to be working until I am 90.

whiteandlight

Teach30 wrote: »

Thanks rainbowtrout you for that info it is v interesting, I have never actually signed a contract so I have no idea what my terms are. If I return to the school in august I will most certainly ask for a copy.

It still leaves the question is it in my interests to hang on for another while or should I be applying for fixed term posts. Taking a leap into the unknown is v difficult especially as If I stay in the school I will continue to build relationships and it will become more and more difficult to leave as the years go by.

Also it should be noted that the teacher before me was there for 20 years, and was never made permanent... That really depresses me I don't want to be working until I am 90.

I don't mean to be blunt but you are not getting paid for the summer, you have no pension, you don't think they respect your subject and you have no CID. You should move. There is literally no benefit to staying apart from familiarity with the school

rainbowtrout

Teach30 wrote: »

Thanks rainbowtrout you for that info it is v interesting, I have never actually signed a contract so I have no idea what my terms are. If I return to the school in august I will most certainly ask for a copy.

It still leaves the question is it in my interests to hang on for another while or should I be applying for fixed term posts. Taking a leap into the unknown is v difficult especially as If I stay in the school I will continue to build relationships and it will become more and more difficult to leave as the years go by.

Also it should be noted that the teacher before me was there for 20 years, and was never made permanent... That really depresses me I don't want to be working until I am 90.

From a union and public service point of view payment for work and a payslip constitutes a contract. So payslips and timetables showing your own hours would be enough proof to show how long you have worked there. However the finer detail is missing which could be a problem, the entitlements you would have in a department paid job are going to be absent in the long term in this one. Pension and increments are a big one and lack of holiday pay.

Actually it's incredibly shoddy to think that the person who was there before you was there for 20 years without permanency. Clearly the job exists in the long term. I also suspect that the school should be offering you a pension scheme which you could pay into as a private employee as is required of all employers.

Personally I would say keep applying for other jobs and attend interviews etc. If you get offered a job in another school try and suss out your long term prospects, i.e. is it the result of a retirement, will you be the only teacher of that subject etc. If it sounds good, go for it, if not you have your current job to fall back in August.

evolving_doors

Ya op id say get the hell out if you can, im privately paid but on increment and exact parity as dept paid. Only thing is I've no pension with dept.

If you do the maths and even out your salary for the year you might be better on less of your own hours but dept paid (with increment).

Another thing too, is the dept might recognise your service in privately paid so you might be bumped up the increment ladder (i'm not 100% sure).

But because you enter into dept pension for first time you will be on the new cohort....so pension would be based on career averagewhich is crap if you start late on low hours. Then again you might have other financial expectations you havn't considered to see you by (inheritance!!).

All in all though remember you might think that you are lucky to have a job but at the end of the day that school is damm lucky to have you working for less then dept colleagues in the classroom next door.

Don't sell your self/subject short either if its not one of the core subjects. Each subject has its own advantages and educational value, it aint all about jobs in google. If there is a job going in another ok school then go for it.

Your current school should hang its head in shame.

rainbowtrout

Armelodie is right.

Incremental credit is available for privately paid experience

http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/browse/65/article/incremental-credit-secured-for-non-department-paid-teaching//back_to/latest-news/

The ASTI recently reported that they had originally been advised by the Department that new entrants to teaching would not be entitled to claim incremental credit for previous non-Department paid teaching including privately paid teaching and teaching outside Ireland. The ASTI raised this issue at the Teachers’ Conciliation Council. In response, the Department of Education and Skills has announced that incremental credit will now be available to ‘new entrant’ teachers taking up a Department-paid position for previous work as a privately-paid teacher in an Irish second-level school and for other recognised teaching service such as teaching in the UK.

I'd also add career average pension better than no pension.

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Armelodie is right.

Incremental credit is available for privately paid experience

http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/browse/65/article/incremental-credit-secured-for-non-department-paid-teaching//back_to/latest-news/



I'd also add career average pension better than no pension.

Cheers, Ya I just said I'd mention the new career based average as there is a lot of waffle out there about 'teachers pensions' when the folk are actually referring to legacy issues. You still might have the possibility of AVC's or buying back years if you get dept paid, but I presume that would cost a bomb in your monthly paypacket.

Do like the rest of ireland OP and stick it into property :eek:

Teach30

Hi everyone I'm back again with some good news! Was offered a fixed term contract of 14 hrs for the year. I am replacing a teacher who has left the school. I'm obviously delighted but also apprehensive at having to start all over again.

If I am to accept these hours are there any particular questions I should ask the principal. I am useless when it comes to terms of contracts etc, so I am asking all you boardsies is there anything I need to look out for in the contract/ask about this type of contract.

Cheers for the help,
Teach30

rainbowtrout

Teach30 wrote: »

Hi everyone I'm back again with some good news! Was offered a fixed term contract of 14 hrs for the year. I am replacing a teacher who has left the school. I'm obviously delighted but also apprehensive at having to start all over again.

If I am to accept these hours are there any particular questions I should ask the principal. I am useless when it comes to terms of contracts etc, so I am asking all you boardsies is there anything I need to look out for in the contract/ask about this type of contract.

Cheers for the help,
Teach30

Good news! Congratulations!

Is it a one year contract and pay for the holidays? Has the teacher left on a permanent basis, i.e. are the hours your own, do you know?

I assumed from your earlier posts that you had an unusual subject as you were paid privately and it was never going to be made permanent.

One thing you should get from your old school is a record of employment and hours worked so you can get your increments sorted out as soon as possible in your new school (assuming you accept the position).

Teach30

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Good news! Congratulations!

Is it a one year contract and pay for the holidays? Has the teacher left on a permanent basis, i.e. are the hours your own, do you know?

I assumed from your earlier posts that you had an unusual subject as you were paid privately and it was never going to be made permanent.

One thing you should get from your old school is a record of employment and hours worked so you can get your increments sorted out as soon as possible in your new school (assuming you accept the position).

Thanks rainbowtrout, AFAIK they are my own hours for the year as the teacher I'm replacing has taken a post in a different school.

Thanks for info on getting record of employment would never have occurred to me.

I am more than likely going to take it as it does mean I get paid for hols. After so many years teaching I think I finally deserve that!

From having read other threads can a fixed term contract lead to a CID? If so how exactly does this work? I was told I could gain more hours in my second subject so this would certainly help.

TheDriver

Ask are there objectionable grounds for the contract I.e. Is the person on secondment or some other arrangement....

Teach30

TheDriver wrote: »

Ask are there objectionable grounds for the contract I.e. Is the person on secondment or some other arrangement....

I was told the teacher has taken up a post in another school and will not be returning to this job.

rainbowtrout

Teach30 wrote: »

Thanks rainbowtrout, AFAIK they are my own hours for the year as the teacher I'm replacing has taken a post in a different school.

Thanks for info on getting record of employment would never have occurred to me.

I am more than likely going to take it as it does mean I get paid for hols. After so many years teaching I think I finally deserve that!

From having read other threads can a fixed term contract lead to a CID? If so how exactly does this work? I was told I could gain more hours in my second subject so this would certainly help.

In simple terms, if you have your own hours for three years you are entitled to a CID. The objectionable grounds TheDriver mentions could be due to a teacher going on a secondment (which is not the case here) or the fact that the hours are resource, attached to a particular student so they may not exist in the longterm etc. Your CID would be determined by the hours you have in your third year.

As you are replacing a teacher that has left the school, it is very encouraging. Will you be the only teacher of your subject in the school? Also encouraging to hear that you could get more hours with your second subject. It's great hearing good news stories on this forum every now and again.

Teach30

rainbowtrout wrote: »

In simple terms, if you have your own hours for three years you are entitled to a CID. The objectionable grounds TheDriver mentions could be due to a teacher going on a secondment (which is not the case here) or the fact that the hours are resource, attached to a particular student so they may not exist in the longterm etc. Your CID would be determined by the hours you have in your third year.

As you are replacing a teacher that has left the school, it is very encouraging. Will you be the only teacher of your subject in the school? Also encouraging to hear that you could get more hours with your second subject. It's great hearing good news stories on this forum every now and again.

I will be teaching with two others who share my subject, I'm looking forward to that as it's tough when you are on your own.
I aim to do my best as always and hopefully that will stand to me when it comes to renewing my contract.

I'm assuming that as long as numbers for those doing my subject (it's optional) can be kept up then I am in with a good chance of being kept on.

It's also good to see that there is movement out there and with my position coming up someone else out there will get some experience and might help them in the long term.

Teach30

Alas all is not what it seems. On further querying my job offer it turns out it is not fixed term at all. It's actually RPT with most of the hours being job share.

I really can't believe it, had I not questioned the principal she def would not have offered up this info. I'm currently mulling over this offer until tomorrow.

If anyone has any advice on RPT contracts it would be appreciated!

whiteandlight

Teach30 wrote: »

Alas all is not what it seems. On further querying my job offer it turns out it is not fixed term at all. It's actually RPT with most of the hours being job share.

I really can't believe it, had I not questioned the principal she def would not have offered up this info. I'm currently mulling over this offer until tomorrow.

If anyone has any advice on RPT contracts it would be appreciated!

RPT hours are your own? I'm confused as to how they could be arising from a job share. RPT are the best type of hours!

Teach30

whiteandlight wrote: »

RPT hours are your own? I'm confused as to how they could be arising from a job share. RPT are the best type of hours!

3 of the hours will be my own the rest job share, I know it's so confusing ! think another teacher absorbed some of the hours of a teacher that left and I get the remainder. Principals really only out to suit themselves sometimes as I should have been informed of this earlier IMO.

whiteandlight

Ok thats completely different to what you were told. 3 hours of your own versus 14 is really not the same at all the principal doesn't sound like they've been very honest with you!

rainbowtrout

whiteandlight wrote: »

RPT hours are your own? I'm confused as to how they could be arising from a job share. RPT are the best type of hours!

No not necessarily. RPT are your own hours for the duration of the contract. So the contract is still for one year and the OP still has all the benefits of holiday pay, pension entitlements and increments but if they are job share hours and the teacher comes back the hours are gone.

whiteandlight

Aren't job share fixed purpose hours? So the OP is really being offered 3hrs RPT and 11 hours Fixed Purpose. The fixed purpose gets you paid for the holidays but you have no long term rights. The 3 hrs also gets paid for the holidays but has long term rights.

Teach30

Thanks for clarifying the situation, the question still remains am I better off non dept paid for another year or back in the system with some (3) of my own hours?

Moody_mona

I wouldn't use the term long term rights.

To be honest, if you like the school, it's still 14 hours and getting paid for the summer. Ask if there's possibility of subbing to top up your hours. Ask how the hours are spread to see if you're just hanging around for long sections of the day.

You could still keep looking for other jobs with more hours.

Moody_mona

Just to add, I know it's disheartening saying only three of your own hours, but it's the first year towards CID and anything could happen. My first two years I had none of my own hours, got some in my third year, and got my CID for September based om that.

spurious

Teach30 wrote: »

Principals really only out to suit themselves sometimes as I should have been informed of this earlier IMO.

That particular Principal possibly, but hardly all.
The majority of Principals are doing their best, within the constraints they work under. Of course there are chancers like yours, but there are many fine Principals in Irish schools.

Teach30

spurious wrote: »

That particular Principal possibly, but hardly all.
The majority of Principals are doing their best, within the constraints they work under. Of course there are chancers like yours, but there are many fine Principals in Irish schools.

Oh I know there will always be nice principals who will look out for you but in my own experience I have only come across one who showed a genuine concern for helping staff out,

My biggest problem is that over the years I have made some poor choices, sticking it out in schools in the hope of extra hours, but for them not to exist or classes to be cancelled the following year. I really can't afford to make another bad judgement call hence my post here.

Still having trouble deciding!

rainbowtrout

Teach30 wrote: »

3 of the hours will be my own the rest job share, I know it's so confusing ! think another teacher absorbed some of the hours of a teacher that left and I get the remainder. Principals really only out to suit themselves sometimes as I should have been informed of this earlier IMO.

Well a lot of it will depend on whether or not the job share teacher is teaching the same subject as you, whether or not the timetable can be juggled when they come back and how long they intend on staying on job share. It is a gamble, it might be for one year, but there may be long term prospects. It's really only a decision you can make for yourself.

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Well a lot of it will depend on whether or not the job share teacher is teaching the same subject as you, whether or not the timetable can be juggled when they come back and how long they intend on staying on job share. It is a gamble, it might be for one year, but there may be long term prospects. It's really only a decision you can make for yourself.

Ya id echo this as it seems you will be hedging your bets on things being thrown your way by the principal. If you look at how you were led to believe that those hours were yours (until you asked), then do you really think the principal is an upfront person. To me when there is a doubt then there is no doubt. Take what you can for now but make it your goal to get out of the school sooner rather than later. There might be a lot of backscratching and nepotism going on especially if a lot of the private paid teachers are on exploitative contracts, for these teachers there will be a pecking order as to who gets the next dept. allocation. Where do you think you are in that pecking order based on previous experience.

Only thing you need to do now is keep your principal sweet for a good reference, then give your reason for moving something like "i wanted to be nearer to family/partner who live near that new school".

Then again you could get lucky in the school with your two subjects ...but based on past experience is it worth sticking around for?

Teach30

Armelodie wrote: »

Ya id echo this as it seems you will be hedging your bets on things being thrown your way by the principal. If you look at how you were led to believe that those hours were yours (until you asked), then do you really think the principal is an upfront person. To me when there is a doubt then there is no doubt. Take what you can for now but make it your goal to get out of the school sooner rather than later. There might be a lot of backscratching and nepotism going on especially if a lot of the private paid teachers are on exploitative contracts, for these teachers there will be a pecking order as to who gets the next dept. allocation. Where do you think you are in that pecking order based on previous experience.

Only thing you need to do now is keep your principal sweet for a good reference, then give your reason for moving something like "i wanted to be nearer to family/partner who live near that new school".

Then again you could get lucky in the school with your two subjects ...but based on past experience is it worth sticking around for?

Hi Armelodie, just to clarify the RPT hours are not in my current private school. I think I am swaying towards taking the RPT hours, realistically what use is it to me to have yet another year with no hol pay, no pension etc.

I know I have the run of the dept and this looks good on my CV, I teach 1st to 6th year. In the long term it's not where I want to be especially if I will forever be taken for granted and my subject is looked down upon by management and staff.

It may be of use to me to get some further experience in a different school and have a reference for future employers as my current principal won't give me one!

I will still look for further hours elsewhere as I'm not tied too much to the area.

evolving_doors

Teach30 wrote: »

Hi Armelodie, just to clarify the RPT hours are not in my current private school. I think I am swaying towards taking the RPT hours, realistically what use is it to me to have yet another year with no hol pay, no pension etc.

I know I have the run of the dept and this looks good on my CV, I teach 1st to 6th year. In the long term it's not where I want to be especially if I will forever be taken for granted and my subject is looked down upon by management and staff.

It may be of use to me to get some further experience in a different school and have a reference for future employers as my current principal won't give me one!

I will still look for further hours elsewhere as I'm not tied too much to the area.

Ok gotcha, if it's dept paid in a new school with better prospects then I'd say it is a step in the right direction. Fair play to you btw, that school you had been in was taking the proverbial.