New Quays cycle lane

crashplan

Plans are being drawn up for a major change in traffic arrangements on Dublin’s north quays which would introduce a new two-way cycle lane and restrict private motorists to one lane instead of two. More Here

Am I reading that wrong or will all motor traffic (buses, coaches and cars) be in one lane? The folks on the Lucan express bus will not be best pleased with that!

Riskymove

crashplan wrote: »

Am I reading that wrong

yes

Most of the North quays have 3 lanes...although not all

there will be a bus lane a lane for cars and then the cycle lane...how the part of the quays with only 2 lanes will be handled I don't know

enda1

crashplan wrote: »

Plans are being drawn up for a major change in traffic arrangements on Dublin’s north quays which would introduce a new two-way cycle lane and restrict private motorists to one lane instead of two. More Here

Am I reading that wrong or will all motor traffic (buses, coaches and cars) be in one lane? The folks on the Lucan express bus will not be best pleased with that!

It does say restricting "private motorists" to one lane, so I'd imagine there will still be a bus lane.

Caliden

To do this they need to provide an alternative to using your car. Packed trains with fewer carriages and not enough parking at trains stations should be sorted before implementing a 2 way bike lane.

Ben D Bus

Caliden wrote: »

To do this they need to provide an alternative to using your car.

Like using a bicycle instead?

carlaboi

Building a cycle lane alongside the Luas when it was been built would have been a better option.

howiya

Caliden wrote: »

To do this they need to provide an alternative to using your car. Packed trains with fewer carriages and not enough parking at trains stations should be sorted before implementing a 2 way bike lane.

Reduced summer bus schedules started yesterday. It's almost as if they want people to drive and then decide that they're going to penalise drivers by shoehorning them into the smallest space possible.

All in favour of ridding the city centre of car traffic but an alternative that can obtain the confidence of the public must be in place first

petronius

I think a cycle lane/route along the quays is much needed and long overdue. a lane from the phoenix park all the way to the point now that would be great.

gaiscioch

Fantastic idea - and I'm a demon for using my car everywhere in Dublin. I don't even own a bike. But finally public policy is seeing the environmental and lifestyle sense of Nordic and other mainland European countries.

petronius

I use my car 40% of the time as well - but the idea both from a tourist and local point of view to have the city centre cycle friendly needs to be pursued
A danish like cycle lane with a kerb segregating the lane from the road would be excellent if possible although cycle traffic lights i doubt are on the cards anytime soon

Ben D Bus

petronius wrote: »

a lane from the phoenix park all the way to the point now that would be great.

If that lane could be joined to the cycle track along the south side of the river from Chapelizod to Islandbridge, that would get me on a bicycle without doubt.

cgcsb

the parts of the quays with only two lanes would see car traffic diverted around side streets. Overall this'll be great both for cyclists and bus users and pedestrians. The quays will become a more pedestrian friendly environment without multiple lanes of traffic forcing it's way through the city.

Ole Rodrigo

The volume of motor traffic in the city needs to be reduced, so any practical steps in that direction have to be welcomed.

More cycling infrastructure will hopefully encourage more people to cycle, whilst offering a disincentive to drive into the city by taking up space previously given over to cars.

And hopefully there will be a cultural shift away from seeing the car as something aspire towards, as a symbol of ' doing well ', and more people paying serious thought to whether they really need one or not.

monument

petronius wrote: »

A danish like cycle lane with a kerb segregating the lane from the road would be excellent if possible although cycle traffic lights i doubt are on the cards anytime soon

We don't have the detail yet (and the devil can be in the detail!), but that's the kind of thing which is planned -- a segregated, two-way cycle route on the quay side.

athtrasna

Too many people still have to commute from the north and West, not just city centre. A bike isn't an option for people travelling longer distances. Buses and trains are a disaster and have gotten so bloody expensive lately. I think the council and the department of transport have their priorities skewed, deal with the actual problem of the many before sorting out what is desirable for the few.

monument

athtrasna wrote: »

Too many people still have to commute from the north and West, not just city centre. A bike isn't an option for people travelling longer distances. Buses and trains are a disaster and have gotten so bloody expensive lately. I think the council and the department of transport have their priorities skewed, deal with the actual problem of the many before sorting out what is desirable for the few.

The bulk of people traveling into the city centre are not traveling long distances.

Distance-wise, cycling is a very viable option for many traveling from Heuston Station, Island Bridge, Heuston South Quarter, Stoneybatter, Grangegorman, Chapelizod, Ballyfermot, Navan Road, Smithfield, the Liberties, Docklands, Castleknock etc and to a lesser but still notable amount from further out, including other parts of D15.

The main current issue is the poor road conditions for cycling and that's something this project is aiming to sort.

EDIT: It's worth noting that people will still be able to travel by car. Because some of this is being talked about as if cars are to be banned -- there's not even a hint of that.

petronius

monument wrote: »

We don't have the detail yet (and the devil can be in the detail!), but that's the kind of thing which is planned -- a segregated, two-way cycle route on the quay side.

Of course, but hopefully it will be out and out cycle lane and not the road/path painted.

Uriel.

monument wrote: »

The bulk of people traveling into the city centre are not traveling long distances.

Distance-wise, cycling is a very viable option for many traveling from Heuston Station, Island Bridge, Heuston South Quarter, Stoneybatter, Grangegorman, Chapelizod, Ballyfermot, Navan Road, Smithfield, the Liberties, Docklands, Castleknock etc and to a lesser but still notable amount from further out, including other parts of D15.

The main current issue is the poor road conditions for cycling and that's something this project is aiming to sort.

EDIT: It's worth noting that people will still be able to travel by car. Because some of this is being talked about as if cars are to be banned -- there's not even a hint of that.

One of the major difficulties I still find in the city is that public transport finishes so early. Last buses out of the city on most routes is about 11:30. It's such a pain in the neck. It doesn't cater for people who work late, who like to go and enjoy the city after work. I think these kind of things need to be sorted in tandem.

I've got nothing against improving cycling facilities though, i just feel that there are other policy issues that must also be addressed.

The only thing (don't see the cycle lane plan (is it produced yet?)) is if you are in a segregated cycle lane running the length of the quays - presumably you will need to cut across the other two lands of traffic at various points to reach turn offs. How will that be handled? I imagine, if not correctly managed could be dangerous for cyclists and frustrating for all trying to cut across two lanes of heavy traffic.

seamus

Uriel. wrote: »

One of the major difficulties I still find in the city is that public transport finishes so early. Last buses out of the city on most routes is about 11:30. It's such a pain in the neck. It doesn't cater for people who work late, who like to go and enjoy the city after work. I think these kind of things need to be sorted in tandem.

I think that's a relatively minor issue, i.e. I don't think it affects that many people, but I would like to see the last bus moved to midnight or 0:30 and the first bus moved back to 05:30. Likewise with the trains. Particularly for people living outside of the metropolitan area, taxis are simply not feasible, so even just an extra 30 minutes at either end would make a big difference for many people. Even for tourism, if you pushed these back then people could come in from hotels/guesthouses outside of Dublin, see a show or grab dinner, have a couple of beers and have plenty of time to get back out again.

The only thing (don't see the cycle lane plan (is it produced yet?)) is if you are in a segregated cycle lane running the length of the quays - presumably you will need to cut across the other two lands of traffic at various points to reach turn offs. How will that be handled? I imagine, if not correctly managed could be dangerous for cyclists and frustrating for all trying to cut across two lanes of heavy traffic.

Probably the same as the Grand canal cycle lane with lights at every bridge. The one big difference is that with the one-way systems in place, cyclists can get a green light with the traffic in many places, so the delay will be minimal.
If you need to turn left, then you join the northbound traffic on the bridge and go straight across.

The primary benefit from a segregated cycle lane comes from not getting stuck behind busses and other traffic. It's also much easier to overtake slower cyclists when you don't have to worry about getting squished by a bus coming up behind you

monument

Uriel. wrote: »

One of the major difficulties I still find in the city is that public transport finishes so early. Last buses out of the city on most routes is about 11:30. It's such a pain in the neck. It doesn't cater for people who work late, who like to go and enjoy the city after work. I think these kind of things need to be sorted in tandem..

How does a cycle route on the north quays affect people leaving the city at 11.30 or later at night?

Uriel. wrote: »

I've got nothing against improving cycling facilities though, i just feel that there are other policy issues that must also be addressed.

What issues besides the one mentioned above?

Uriel.

monument wrote: »

How does a cycle route on the north quays affect people leaving the city at 11.30 or later at night?




What issues besides the one mentioned above?

Well anytime I need to be in the city late at night (during the week) I still need to get to work in the morning... if I know I can't get public transport (because it's finished for the night) it means I need to drive, that means driving into work in rush hour in the morning etc. As Seamus above said, moving last bus/train to 00:30 would be really good - sure you can't even go to a 21:30 film and make the last bus.

On the second issue, in terms of policy - the start and finish times of trains buses as already discussed, journey times are still too long in many instances, expansion of the rail/light rail north of the Liffey, and still one of my biggest gripes, the inconsistency of Dublin Bus. far too often buses are late or are no shows. It is excusable on occasion (driver sick, an accident etc.) but i still experience regularly. It is particularly frustrating when the Live timetable shows the bus as "due"

Aard

While those are valid issues in their own right, they're pretty much unrelated to the proposed cycle route.

Uriel.

Aard wrote: »

While those are valid issues in their own right, they're pretty much unrelated to the proposed cycle route.

I am not so sure that they are unrelated. The proposed cycle route will reduce the quays to one lane for private motor traffic. Traffic is already crazy as it is.

There are plenty of people that either will not, or cannot cycle into or through the city, so they will keep using their cars. Cutting the available lanes for cars by 50% is not going to cut car traffic by 50%. It will likely be reduced to a smaller degree and/or be pushed to alternative routes.

If you fix (some of) the problems and shortfalls in motorised public transport, you have some hope of this proposal not becoming a complete a mess, I thinlk, and that's why there's a connection.

Aard

I see where you're coming from. Other cities have lost road space due to a variety of reasons, between reallocating it to public transport right of way, cycle lanes, footpaths. In a couple of famous cases, entire motorways have been removed with little impact on traffic.

The examples of the Embarcadero Freeway removal and the Cheonggyecheon Highway removal show that there can be an extreme reduction in road capacity, with little knock on effect on traffic. Removing one lane from the quays is a drop in the bucket in comparison. People find alternative and often more efficient routes in such cases. It's known as Braess's Paradox.

chopper6

More pandering to the leo-tards.

If much-needed cash is going to be diverted to the "needs" of cyclists they should,at the very least be forced to be insured and to carry a registration plate of some sort so they can be called to account for their constant rule-breaking on the roads.

Aard

Cyclist behaviour and cycling infrastructure are different things, and that genre of post belongs in one of the many cyclist-rant threads.

A Neurotic

chopper6 wrote: »

More pandering to the leo-tards.

If much-needed cash is going to be diverted to the "needs" of cyclists they should,at the very least be forced to be insured and to carry a registration plate of some sort so they can be called to account for their constant rule-breaking on the roads.

If by pandering you mean creating a safer traffic environment, encouraging people to spend less money, consume less petrol, reduce carbon emissions and integrate daily exercise into their routine...?

Promoting cycling makes sense from a societal view, not just for cycling enthusiasts.

the world wonders

I agree with the naysayers above, we should solve all the other issues with transport -- bus timetables, poor public transport, Metro North and West, Dart Underground, Dublin Bus unions, junkies on the red line, the Eastern Bypass, red light jumpers, burning the bondholders, the Dublin Outer Orbital, the Irish Sea tunnel -- before we look at a huge project like putting some orange paint and bollards down on a lane of the quays.

Uriel.

Aard wrote: »

I see where you're coming from. Other cities have lost road space due to a variety of reasons, between reallocating it to public transport right of way, cycle lanes, footpaths. In a couple of famous cases, entire motorways have been removed with little impact on traffic.

The examples of the Embarcadero Freeway removal and the Cheonggyecheon Highway removal show that there can be an extreme reduction in road capacity, with little knock on effect on traffic. Removing one lane from the quays is a drop in the bucket in comparison. People find alternative and often more efficient routes in such cases. It's known as Braess's Paradox.

Are these examples the exception rather than the rule though? I am not familiar with the examples highlighted. Was the little knock on in effect to traffic because of other ancillary actions? or because a well serviced infrastructure was already in place? It would be interesting to see if such an experience would work with Dublin. I'd hazard a guess that it is unlikely vis-a-vis the current state of affairs, but I don't know.

Aard

Well the Embarcadero Freeway in San Fransisco was removed after it was severely damaged in an earthquake. There was no contingency plan. By the time a replacement was looked at, it was realised that traffic had sorted itself out with little help. In the Korean example, traffic congestion was actually reduced as a result of the motorway removal. These are huge projects though. There are numerous smaller examples from Germany and the Netherlands. It's not a case of exceptions rather than the rule.

Ben D Bus

Uriel. wrote: »

It would be interesting to see if such an experience would work with Dublin. I'd hazard a guess that it is unlikely vis-a-vis the current state of affairs, but I don't know.

The world didn't come to an end when a proper bus lane was installed along the length of the same North Quays currently under discussion. In fact my bus-commuting life became quite a lot better

monument

Uriel. wrote: »

I am not so sure that they are unrelated. The proposed cycle route will reduce the quays to one lane for private motor traffic. Traffic is already crazy as it is.

There are plenty of people that either will not, or cannot cycle into or through the city, so they will keep using their cars. Cutting the available lanes for cars by 50% is not going to cut car traffic by 50%. It will likely be reduced to a smaller degree and/or be pushed to alternative routes.

If you fix (some of) the problems and shortfalls in motorised public transport, you have some hope of this proposal not becoming a complete a mess, I thinlk, and that's why there's a connection.

Nobody is cutting the amount of traffic lanes by 50%. The pinch points are already down to one lane and that isn't been cut.

Uriel. wrote: »

Well anytime I need to be in the city late at night (during the week) I still need to get to work in the morning... if I know I can't get public transport (because it's finished for the night) it means I need to drive, that means driving into work in rush hour in the morning etc. As Seamus above said, moving last bus/train to 00:30 would be really good - sure you can't even go to a 21:30 film and make the last bus.

You talked about people who work late. Exactly how many people start work at the morning rush hour and work until after 11pm? We can't be planning our streets and transport systems around such a low amount of people.

Uriel. wrote: »

On the second issue, in terms of policy - the start and finish times of trains buses as already discussed, journey times are still too long in many instances, expansion of the rail/light rail north of the Liffey, and still one of my biggest gripes, the inconsistency of Dublin Bus. far too often buses are late or are no shows. It is excusable on occasion (driver sick, an accident etc.) but i still experience regularly. It is particularly frustrating when the Live timetable shows the bus as "due"

Luas Cross City is going into the northside and two BRT routes are planned for the northside -- To Blanch and to Swords.

Uriel.

monument wrote: »

Nobody is cutting the amount of traffic lanes by 50%. The pinch points are already down to one lane and that isn't been cut.

I was under the impression that the North Quays (or part of anyway) would go from two lanes for private vehicles down to one?

You talked about people who work late. Exactly how many people start work at the morning rush hour and work until after 11pm? We can't be planning our streets and transport systems around such a low amount of people.

I spoke about people who work late and/or stay in the city after work to socialise etc. I do this regularly. I haven't taken a census of others who do similar. A modest extension of operating hours would solve this.

Luas Cross City is going into the northside and two BRT routes are planned for the northside -- To Blanch and to Swords.

Luas cross city is a good development but only barely stretches into the Northside to be fair and doesn't really cover the sprawling suburbs.

I remain unconvinced about the BRT plans to be honest. They sounds like a stop-gap measure to make up for MN being shelved. Improving Dublin bus, even to the point of running additional expresso buses would be a cheaper option.

Integrated ticketing is a major problem too. Silly little things make the public transport less attractive - e.g. you can't top up a LEAP card online or via mobile phone on the fly.

If you switch from car to public transport and the route is not direct and you have to use various modes of "integrated" public transport, the cost becomes huge. e.g. a trip that requires bus and luas becomes very expensive very quickly - annual Bus and LUAS tickets are very expensive, particularly if your route require one bus and one luas trip each way every day.

An annual Dublin public transport card covering all modes of public transport would be great, and could be cheaper.

Riskymove

monument wrote: »

Nobody is cutting the amount of traffic lanes by 50%. The pinch points are already down to one lane and that isn't been cut.

what happens at these pinch points then

there is a strectch currently where there are only two lanes - 1 bus lane (peak hours) and one private lane....where will the cycle lane fit in?

LXFlyer

howiya wrote: »

Reduced summer bus schedules started yesterday. It's almost as if they want people to drive and then decide that they're going to penalise drivers by shoehorning them into the smallest space possible.

All in favour of ridding the city centre of car traffic but an alternative that can obtain the confidence of the public must be in place first

With respect the loadings on buses and public transport drop significantly (particularly during the peak hours) in the summer time and if you are trying to suggest otherwise, then you're living in a different world. Do you seriously think it is good business sense to keep a full schedule operating when there are far less people using the bus?


It's something that should have been done years ago.

monument

Uriel. wrote: »

I was under the impression that the North Quays (or part of anyway) would go from two lanes for private vehicles down to one?

The quays are around 4km and, currently, for more than half of that distance there's only one general traffic lane in one or each direction.

So, cutting more of the quays down to one general traffic lane cannot amount to cutting 50% of the general traffic lanes.

Uriel. wrote: »

I spoke about people who work late and/or stay in the city after work to socialise etc. I do this regularly. I haven't taken a census of others who do similar. A modest extension of operating hours would solve this.

Indeed it would, but it's something that should happen regardless of this project and my original reply was replying to your point on people who finish work after 11am (the bulk of these people don't commute in the AM peak).

Uriel. wrote: »

Luas cross city is a good development but only barely stretches into the Northside to be fair and doesn't really cover the sprawling suburbs.

I remain unconvinced about the BRT plans to be honest. They sounds like a stop-gap measure to make up for MN being shelved. Improving Dublin bus, even to the point of running additional expresso buses would be a cheaper option.

Integrated ticketing is a major problem too. Silly little things make the public transport less attractive - e.g. you can't top up a LEAP card online or via mobile phone on the fly.

If you switch from car to public transport and the route is not direct and you have to use various modes of "integrated" public transport, the cost becomes huge. e.g. a trip that requires bus and luas becomes very expensive very quickly - annual Bus and LUAS tickets are very expensive, particularly if your route require one bus and one luas trip each way every day.

An annual Dublin public transport card covering all modes of public transport would be great, and could be cheaper.

The overall point I was making is that the quays project is not happening in isolation -- public transport improvements are being made and further ones are planned.

cgcsb

athtrasna wrote: »

Buses and trains are a disaster and have gotten so bloody expensive lately.

That's a fairly broad brush stroke in fairness. although Public transport in Dublin is messy compared the rest of western Europe, it's still very much usable and affordable compared to private vehicle.

cgcsb

Uriel. wrote: »

One of the major difficulties I still find in the city is that public transport finishes so early. Last buses out of the city on most routes is about 11:30. It's such a pain in the neck. It doesn't cater for people who work late, who like to go and enjoy the city after work. I think these kind of things need to be sorted in tandem.

I've got nothing against improving cycling facilities though, i just feel that there are other policy issues that must also be addressed.

The only thing (don't see the cycle lane plan (is it produced yet?)) is if you are in a segregated cycle lane running the length of the quays - presumably you will need to cut across the other two lands of traffic at various points to reach turn offs. How will that be handled? I imagine, if not correctly managed could be dangerous for cyclists and frustrating for all trying to cut across two lanes of heavy traffic.

Agree some routes are packed after 11pm as people scramble to get the last buses. DB should see this as demand for some later services.

cgcsb

monument wrote: »

You talked about people who work late. Exactly how many people start work at the morning rush hour and work until after 11pm? We can't be planning our streets and transport systems around such a low amount of people.

In fairness he does have a point on some of the arterial routes, 39a, 25a/b/ etc. which are packed late at night....not relevant to this thread though.

cgcsb

Riskymove wrote: »

what happens at these pinch points then

there is a strectch currently where there are only two lanes - 1 bus lane (peak hours) and one private lane....where will the cycle lane fit in?

the car traffic lane will be re routed around the block.