Piecemeal response to Armagh-Cavan brawl

Pdoghue

The GAA have reacted in typical piecemeal fashion to the Armagh-Cavan brawl by banning 5 players for one game and fining each county board 5000. IMHO this won't have any effect whatsoever as a deterrant for future games.

RGS

In fairness they were too busy adding to the mess of penalty taking in hurling!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sheldons Brain

Cavan launched the attack, but had the smaller punishment, especially as Dunne is injured!

frostyjacks

I think it's a fair enough punishment. Looking at the various footage, there really wasn't a great deal of violence. Dunne must feel like some eejit.

breffni bogballer

fines not worth a fiddlers fcuk, richs. sugar daddy will pay it for co boards. STARTING THE NEXT GAME @-5 PTS WOULD BE A BIGGER DETERENT, obviously not for a replay though

breffni bogballer

fines not worth a fiddlers fcuk, rich sugar daddy will pay it for co boards. STARTING THE NEXT GAME @-5 PTS WOULD BE A BIGGER DETERENT, obviously not for a replay though

GeneralSherman

Both teams should have been thrown out of the competition. Underage clubs are being directed by the GAA to adhere to Codes of Behaviour and put in place Best Practice and the GAA at the top level take this halfhearted approach to discipline for clear breaches. As a club children's officer I ask myself why bother.

frostyjacks

I was watching the Brazil and Croatia players hug and kiss each other in the tunnel before the match and thought, is this what we want to see in GAA? Gimmee a brawl any day please.

Crash Bang Wall

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Cavan launched the attack, but had the smaller punishment, especially as Dunne is injured!

Are you serious?

Armagh started the brawl by standing behind the wrong flag, provoking a reaction!! I have absolutely no doubt that it was preplanned by the Armagh camp

Dirty Dingus McGee

GeneralSherman wrote: »

Both teams should have been thrown out of the competition. Underage clubs are being directed by the GAA to adhere to Codes of Behaviour and put in place Best Practice and the GAA at the top level take this halfhearted approach to discipline for clear breaches. As a club children's officer I ask myself why bother.

Nonsense.

It was a bit of pushing and shoving , not acceptable but it wasn't as bad as was made out initially.Suspensions and fines were handed out that fitted the crime banning both teams from the competition would have been excessive and a punishment of that scale should only be handed down for repeat offenders. Inter county GAA is relatively free of incidents like this and there hasn't been an incident like this for a long while in an inter county match so bans like you are suggesting are not necessary for inter county teams who tend to be able to behave themselves.

J Cheever Loophole

Crash Bang Wall wrote: »

Are you serious?

Armagh started the brawl by standing behind the wrong flag, provoking a reaction!! I have absolutely no doubt that it was preplanned by the Armagh camp

Armagh knew that Cavan would react as they did?

ArielAtom

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

Armagh knew that Cavan would react as they did?

Still doesn't make it right. Cavan were the aggressors. They started the fighting.

J Cheever Loophole

ArielAtom wrote: »

Still doesn't make it right. Cavan were the aggressors. They started the fighting.

I was asking a question - not making a statement.

rebel girl 15

Crash Bang Wall wrote: »

Are you serious?

Armagh started the brawl by standing behind the wrong flag, provoking a reaction!! I have absolutely no doubt that it was preplanned by the Armagh camp

Cavan flag carrier has said that Armagh were in the wrong, and they asked her to move, but were no polite about it so she didn't. Armagh were the biggest in the wrong, not lining up behind the correct flag - she puts the blame firmly on Ciaran McKeever.

Pre match nerves etc are being used as an excuse - Armagh the cause of the hassle lining up behind the wrong flag get away scot free fine wise as Boylesports are paying it for them and they are appealing their suspensions. Cavan on the other hand accepted it was wrong, accepted their two suspensions and move on. I think its disgraceful that Armagh can have their fine payed for

Fireball07

Who are the suspended players?

Lemlin

ArielAtom wrote: »

Still doesn't make it right. Cavan were the aggressors. They started the fighting.

McKeever lined up behind the wrong flag. Alan Clarke shouldered him and the fighting broke out as a result of that.

In Gaelic football a shoulder isn't starting fighting.

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

Cavan flag carrier has said that Armagh were in the wrong, and they asked her to move, but were no polite about it so she didn't. Armagh were the biggest in the wrong, not lining up behind the correct flag - she puts the blame firmly on Ciaran McKeever.

Pre match nerves etc are being used as an excuse - Armagh the cause of the hassle lining up behind the wrong flag get away scot free fine wise as Boylesports are paying it for them and they are appealing their suspensions. Cavan on the other hand accepted it was wrong, accepted their two suspensions and move on. I think its disgraceful that Armagh can have their fine payed for

The whole lot was premeditated by Armagh and one man in particular IMO - Kieran McGeeney. It was done to unsettle Cavan and, to be honest, it worked.

McGeeney was seen clearly 'motivating' McKeever before he ran down to line up. Armagh also had their pre made excuse re marching on the outside for after the game.

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

Armagh knew that Cavan would react as they did?

They knew it wouldn't end well. Just like 2004 when one of them tripped a Cavan player leaving the pre match parade and all he'll broke loose.

J Cheever Loophole

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

Cavan flag carrier has said that Armagh were in the wrong, and they asked her to move, but were no polite about it so she didn't. Armagh were the biggest in the wrong, not lining up behind the correct flag - she puts the blame firmly on Ciaran McKeever.

Pre match nerves etc are being used as an excuse - Armagh the cause of the hassle lining up behind the wrong flag get away scot free fine wise as Boylesports are paying it for them and they are appealing their suspensions. Cavan on the other hand accepted it was wrong, accepted their two suspensions and move on. I think its disgraceful that Armagh can have their fine payed for

Interesting use of the phrase Cavan flag carrier, as the girl in question was indeed a native of Cavan. She did indeed put the blame firmly on Ciaran McKeever but in light of her background you can argue how objective her apportioning of blame is. Furthermore she is the only one to offer a version of a conversation that it is likely that only two people actually heard.

As regards the payment of the fine, I would say that Armagh as a County is not in a good state financially and this in turn impacts the Clubs, as they are lent on to provide financial support. A 5,000 euro fine would result in direct extra financial hardship for the Clubs, and as Secretary of a Club in Armagh I can tell you that such an extra burden would directly affect what we can provide for our teams, including boys and girls of all ages, as well as extras such as small grants for youngsters going to the Gaeltacht.

You'll forgive me therefore if I do not share your outrage.

umop.episdn

Anyone know who the person was that leaned over the wire to punch one of the players? He should get a long ban from all gaa grounds no matter who he is

J Cheever Loophole

I didn't want to challenge an awful lot of what you wrote on the Cavan thread as I didn't feel it my place to engage in a debate that would likely disrupt that thread.

Lemlin wrote: »

McKeever lined up behind the wrong flag. Alan Clarke shouldered him and the fighting broke out as a result of that. In Gaelic football a shoulder isn't starting fighting.

It is if there is no match taking place at the time.

Lemlin wrote: »

The whole lot was premeditated by Armagh and one man in particular IMO - Kieran McGeeney. It was done to unsettle Cavan and, to be honest, it worked. McGeeney was seen clearly 'motivating' McKeever before he ran down to line up. Armagh also had their pre made excuse re marching on the outside for after the game. They knew it wouldn't end well. Just like 2004 when one of them tripped a Cavan player leaving the pre match parade and all he'll broke loose.

No mention of the man in an Armagh jersey, standing on the grassy knoll? :rolleyes:

You saw the Armagh captain and Assistant Manager in discussion prior to a game and then come up with a bizarre premeditated plan? To use a phrase you youself used, in Gaelic football a discussion prior to a match between a captain and an Assistant Manager is not necessarily to hatch some sort of malevolent plot. Honestly, you'd nearly think that you didn't like Ciaran McKeever, Kieran McGeeney or Armagh!!

By the way, why did McKeever ask the girl in the band to change sides, before Cavan had got there, if it was his intention to start a row?

Lemlin

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

I didn't want to challenge an awful lot of what you wrote on the Cavan thread as I didn't feel it my place to engage in a debate that would likely disrupt that thread.

It is if there is no match taking place at the time.

No mention of the man in an Armagh jersey, standing on the grassy knoll? :rolleyes:

You saw the Armagh captain and Assistant Manager in discussion prior to a game and then come up with a bizarre premeditated plan? To use a phrase you youself used, in Gaelic football a discussion prior to a match between a captain and an Assistant Manager is not necessarily to hatch some sort of malevolent plot. Honestly, you'd nearly think that you didn't like Ciaran McKeever, Kieran McGeeney or Armagh!!

By the way, why did McKeever ask the girl in the band to change sides, before Cavan had got there, if it was his intention to start a row?

Re the shoulder, I've often seen lads shouldering each other before a game starts. Some lads run straight down the pitch and the first welcome is to give their man a shoulder.

I've no problem with Armagh or McKeever. I was a great supporter of the Armagh team of the early noughties as were alot of Cavan people. McConville even had his pub in Virginia at the time.

I can't say the same for McGeeney. The carry on was straight out of his play book of psychological warfare. He and Canavan always want to bring things to a new level.

McKeever had a lovely way of asking her to change sides alright! I believe he told her to "****ing move". He knew exactly what he was doing. He sounds like quite the charming individual.

Also you say above that you wouldn't believe her version of events because she was from Cavan herself. Has McKeever denied her version of events? I would also imagine the other flag carrier and other individuals heard him.

Re the discussion, I didn't see it myself but McGeeney was firing McKeever up as best he could from what I hear.

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

Interesting use of the phrase Cavan flag carrier, as the girl in question was indeed a native of Cavan. She did indeed put the blame firmly on Ciaran McKeever but in light of her background you can argue how objective her apportioning of blame is. Furthermore she is the only one to offer a version of a conversation that it is likely that only two people actually heard.

As regards the payment of the fine, I would say that Armagh as a County is not in a good state financially and this in turn impacts the Clubs, as they are lent on to provide financial support. A 5,000 euro fine would result in direct extra financial hardship for the Clubs, and as Secretary of a Club in Armagh I can tell you that such an extra burden would directly affect what we can provide for our teams, including boys and girls of all ages, as well as extras such as small grants for youngsters going to the Gaeltacht.

You'll forgive me therefore if I do not share your outrage.

It's the Armagh board's continued stupidity that amazes me. Challenging the bans. They were lucky there was only 3, as were Cavan to only get 2, one of which is meaningless. I was expecting at least 4/5, including both captains.

Lemlin

Was this the Armagh man standing on the grassy knoll that you speak of btw? Some hero this lad. I heard he was a former player but now hear he's actually a referee (!!!) from Cross.

J Cheever Loophole

Lemlin wrote: »

Re the shoulder, I've often seen lads shouldering each other before a game starts. Some lads run straight down the pitch and the first welcome is to give their man a shoulder.

I don't get this - you seem to be defending the shoulder charge by Clarke and then saying..

Lemlin wrote: »

It's the Armagh board's continued stupidity that amazes me. Challenging the bans. They were lucky there was only 3, as were Cavan to only get 2, one of which is meaningless. I was expecting at least 4/5, including both captains.

Why would Clarke get a ban if you thought it was only a shoulder?

Lemlin wrote: »

Also you say above that you wouldn't believe her version of events because she was from Cavan herself.

No I didn't.

Lemlin wrote: »

Re the discussion, I didn't see it myself but McGeeney was firing McKeever up as best he could from what I hear.

Ah, well that enlightens things alright and of course taking into account..

Lemlin wrote: »

I've no problem with Armagh or McKeever.......
I can't say the same for McGeeney. The carry on was straight out of his play book of psychological warfare. He and Canavan always want to bring things to a new level.

...suddenly your conspiracy theory makes perfect sense - it's based on a dislike of McGeeney - thanks for that.

Lemlin wrote: »

Was this the Armagh man standing on the grassy knoll that you speak of btw? Some hero this lad. I heard he was a former player but now hear he's actually a referee (!!!) from Cross.

Should be charged and banned - out of curiosity though, what relevance has that to our discussion?

umop.episdn

Lemlin wrote: »

Was this the Armagh man standing on the grassy knoll that you speak of btw? Some hero this lad. I heard he was a former player but now hear he's actually a referee (!!!) from Cross.

Not sure, the t.v. footage bad him from behind & he leaned over to punch a player in the head.
If it's the same guy then he deserves a ban

Lemlin

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

I don't get this - you seem to be defending the shoulder charge by Clarke and then saying..

Why would Clarke get a ban if you thought it was only a shoulder?

No I didn't.

Ah, well that enlightens things alright and of course taking into account..

...suddenly your conspiracy theory makes perfect sense - it's based on a dislike of McGeeney - thanks for that.

Should be charged and banned - out of curiosity though, what relevance has that to our discussion?

Did I say Clarke's involvement ended with the shoulder? He shouldered McKeever. The Armagh players behind came running and alot more ensued. My initial point was Cavan were not the aggressors as a poster had pointed out. I also never said Clarke's involvement ended with the shoulder.

He deserves a ban alone for being stupid enough to get drawn into it anyway. He should be leading by example. I'd also remind you that you described McKeever's actions as "provocative" on the day of the game.

You questioned how objective her view was. That to me is questioning her version of events. As I said, if she's lieing why isn't McKeever denying her story? Or anyone from Armagh for that matter? Most men wouldn't want the media reporting they'd said that to a young woman if it wasn't true, I certainly wouldn't.

I do love this forum. Criticise anyone and you've a siege against them. I don't like McGeeney but that doesn't change my view that this was premeditated. As I said, Armagh have history in this sort of thing against Cavan. You're also the same lad who questioned the neutrality in this of someone from Wexford on another thread! Looks like you can't handle criticism from any corner.

A poster above asked about the supporter. You spoke of an Armagh man on the grassy knoll so I tied the two in. I thought it was quite clever myself. Is it true he's a referee from Cross as an Armagh man told me?

I do love your one and two word answers. Almost as pre scripted as Grimley after the game. Not too unlike the pre scripted excuse about the parade. That one was rolled out a bit too quickly for my liking. A pre scripted excuse based on total lies as the Ulster Council have since confirmed. Did Cavan tell any lies in this?

J Cheever Loophole

Lemlin wrote: »

You questioned how objective her view was. That to me is questioning her version of events.

Did she not apportion the bulk of the blame on Armagh for the row? If she did, that is an opinion and not a fact and it can be reasonably said that her objectivity could be called into question given she is a Cavan native and the row was between Armagh and Cavan!!

Lemlin wrote: »

I do love this forum. Criticise anyone and you've a siege against them. I don't like McGeeney but that doesn't change my view that this was premeditated. As I said, Armagh have history in this sort of thing against Cavan. You're also the same lad who questioned the neutrality in this of someone from Wexford on another thread! Looks like you can't handle criticism from any corner.

You don't like McGeeney. It can't be a coinicidence that you are accusing him of provoking a situation on the basis of a conversation he had that you neither saw or heard!! :rolleyes:

Lemlin wrote: »

A poster above asked about the supporter. You spoke of an Armagh man on the grassy knoll so I tied the two in. I thought it was quite clever myself.

Yes, we'll agree to disagree on that one.

You have made a couple of references to the previous thread on this issue Lemlin, and I'm surprised at that, as I feel you didn't cover yourself in glory there, given that you claimed Dunne was targeted in the row and a further post had to be edited along with a warning about personal abuse.

I'll leave it at that.

Lemlin

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

Did she not apportion the bulk of the blame on Armagh for the row? If she did, that is an opinion and not a fact and it can be reasonably said that her objectivity could be called into question given she is a Cavan native and the row was between Armagh and Cavan!!




You don't like McGeeney. It can't be a coinicidence that you are accusing him of provoking a situation on the basis of a conversation he had that you neither saw or heard!! :rolleyes:



Yes, we'll agree to disagree on that one.

You have made a couple of references to the previous thread on this issue Lemlin, and I'm surprised at that, as I feel you didn't cover yourself in glory there, given that you claimed Dunne was targeted in the row and a further post had to be edited along with a warning about personal abuse.

I'll leave it at that.

We weren't talking about who she apportioned the blame to. I'm talking about what she said McKeever said to her and the fact he or Armagh have not denied it. Who she apportioned the blame to is not part of our discussion.

I didn't see or hear it but I can go on what a number of people have told me they saw. Of course they didn't hear it either but as I said, Armagh and McGeeney have history for this sort of thing.

I didn't get any warning about personal abuse on the previous thread. Could you point me to it? I think you'll find I replied to an individual who got a warning and their post edited for sectarian abuse.

As for Dunne being targeted, I was going on what Northern Sound had said at the time. They were wrong and I've no problem admitting that.

Of course you want to leave it there. You realise yourself you can't defend the actions of Armagh. The questions remain unanswered though:

1. Why did Armagh lie about the parade protocol? Just who in the county came up with this premade excuse?
2. If McKeever didn't tell a young girl to "****ing move", why isn't he trying to clear his name?
3. Why did McGeeney feel the need to give the Armagh captain extra 'motivation' ahead of the parade?
4. Is the individual who threw the punch at Feargal Flanagan's head a referee from Cross?
5. If the girl wouldn't move, why didn't McKeever raise it with an official or the head of the band? Or move himself?
6. The Cavan management were in their dugout in the far side of the pitch when the melee broke out. It's convenient that Grimley had hung around for the parade. You'd swear he knew something was going to happen.

I've answered any query you had. Given the above, none of which you can reply to as you attempt to run for the hills, I think it's fair to say you've clearly lost this debate.

keeponhurling

Personally i think the two counties involved got off lightly.
Especially as the brawl was around kids and the band.

But the GAA generally takes a light touch on violence so I'm not overly surprised by this.

It's probably worth remembering that there was no match taking place at the time.
If that brawl broke out on the street, a few lads would be looking at assault charges

Lemlin

keeponhurling wrote: »

Personally i think the two counties involved got off lightly.
Especially as the brawl was around kids and the band.

But the GAA generally takes a light touch on violence so I'm not overly surprised by this.

It's probably worth remembering that there was no match taking place at the time.
If that brawl broke out on the street, a few lads would be looking at assault charges

I agree totally. Armagh premeditated it and Cavan were stupid enough to fall for it. Armagh have since shown that the monetary fine is a useless tool by the GAA.

I don't agree with hitting county boards for the actions of players anyway. They can't control the action of every player in a 30 or 40 man panel.

I'd have hit at least 3/4 players from each side with 3 month bans to ensure their Summers were over, including both captains.