central heating help needed

greenore

hi,

system has 2xCH & 1xHW Zones

system also has solid fuel back boiler

system has 2x CH Motorized valves

Garage = Oil Boiler & Pump (No over-run)
Hotpress = Cylinder, 2 motorized valves, CH circulating pump & Back boiler pump, cylinder stat, back boiler stat

so there is 3 zone time clock (2x CH & 1xHW)
2 CH room stats


what i need to happen:
CH1 turned on = fire Boiler + pump(garage) & Circulating pump (hotpress) & open corresponding "MV"
CH2 turned on = fire Boiler + pump(garage) & Circulating pump (hotpress) & open corresponding "MV"
HW turned on = fire Boiler + pump(garage)
Back boiler when lit = opens both CH motorized valves & fires Circulating pump(hotpress)

I need a wiring diagram for this system

if you could be so kind to help me out i would be forever grateful

Sir Arthur Daley

Has this system a single or dual coil cylinder?

Diggerdunne

you need to use 2 or 3 relays so that the back boiler won't come on at the same time as the oil boiler. it basically stops back feeds thru switch wires. i think there have been diagrams posted for this before if u do a search

Sir Arthur Daley

Diggerdunne wrote: »

you need to use 2 or 3 relays so that the back boiler won't come on at the same time as the oil boiler.

Why cannot the 2 systems run together?

Diggerdunne

why wud u want the 2 systems running at the same time???

Sir Arthur Daley

Diggerdunne wrote: »

why wud u want the 2 systems running at the same time???

Its not a matter of preference, one has to have an installation where the two can potentially run together i.e when a home owner comes home from work turns on oil and after a period of time lights stove.

tomdempsey200

you can buy a wiring unit that will allow the oil and solid fuel to work together

Sir Arthur Daley

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

you can buy a wiring unit that will allow the oil and solid fuel to work together

As long as the plumbing installation is plumbed correctly.

K.Flyer

Your solid fuel back boiler does it heat hot water only or hot water and radiators?

Sir Arthur Daley

K.Flyer wrote: »

Your solid fuel back boiler does it heat hot water only or hot water and radiators?

From op.

Back boiler when lit = opens both CH motorized valves & fires Circulating pump(hotpress)

tomdempsey200

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

As long as the plumbing installation is plumbed correctly.

the plumber has to tell the man wiring the system how it will operate

he is usually the designer of the heating system on domestic work

Sir Arthur Daley

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

the plumber has to tell the man wiring the system how it will operate

he is usually the designer of the heating system on domestic work

Very true, I have however had unrealistic demands by plumbers in certain installations, its fine for a plumber to slap in a shot of motorised valves, pumps and stats and say this is how it should work now go away and wire it, i refused on a couple of occasions as the way the pipe work was done was a train wreck along with all the MVs.

K.Flyer

I.M.O. Any plumber or heating installer worth his salt should be able to design the wiring diagram for the system.
Unfortunately some plumbers feel its the electricians responsibility, when its not!

@ Arthur, thanks, missed the last line.

@ O.P., I recommend that you get a good plumber who understands heating control systems to check over your system to ensure it is suitable for the changes you want.

Sir Arthur Daley

K.Flyer wrote: »

I.M.O. Any plumber or heating installer worth his salt should be able to design the wiring diagram for the system.
Unfortunately some plumbers feel its the electricians responsibility, when its not!

Good point, imo a plumber should give detailed electrical plans for a system as often the electrician gets the blame for a system running incorrectly.

2011

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Very true, I have however had unrealistic demands by plumbers in certain installations, its fine for a plumber to slap in a shot of motorised valves, pumps and stats and say this is how it should work now go away and wire it, i refused on a couple of occasions as the way the pipe work was done was a train wreck along with all the MVs.

What do you mean by "unrealistic demands" ?

As already suggested the control philosophy should be dictated by the plumber. If the system irequirements are complicated my advice is to get the plumber to write them down so that they can be referred to later.

Sir Arthur Daley

2011 wrote: »

What do you mean by "unrealistic demands" ?

Having several motorised 2 or 3 way valves and pumps and stats and having them do what the plumber asks. When on asking the plumber then how will i wire this he just shrugs the shoulders and says im not the electrician.
Just because a plumber fits lots of motorised valves etc into an installation does not make it correct from his point of view.

Ill give you an example i had a house like in the op case, the plumber very inexperienced as was found out, he had 9 motorised valves and 4 pumps fitted along with various stats which he wanted to control various zones.
I took one look at the system and said straight out i wont wire that, not alone from all the unnecessary auxiliary equipment but because he had a pump fitted to the gravity hw circuit from the solid fuel along with other small issues. Wouldnt i be the nice boy wiring up such a case?

tomdempsey200

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Having several motorised 2 or 3 way valves and pumps and stats and having them do what the plumber asks. When on asking the plumber then how will i wire this he just shrugs the shoulders and says im not the electrician.
Just because a plumber fits lots of motorised valves etc into an installation does not make it correct from his point of view.

Ill give you an example i had a house like in the op case, the plumber very inexperienced as was found out, he had 9 motorised valves and 4 pumps fitted along with various stats which he wanted to control various zones.
I took one look at the system and said straight out i wont wire that, not alone from all the unnecessary auxiliary equipment but because he had a pump fitted to the gravity hw circuit from the solid fuel along with other small issues. Wouldnt i be the nice boy wiring up such a case?

yes plumbers have an unfortunate habit of leaving electricIan's in the dark when it comes to heating systems and how they wish them to operate

2011

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Having several motorised 2 or 3 way valves and pumps and stats and having them do what the plumber asks.

Assuming that he was prepared to put his requirements in writing and the customer agreed I can't see the problem. Ultimately the plumber has to take ownership of the heating system and the electrician shown ensure that the control requirements are met as specified by the plumber. If the electrician does this and the heating system fails to function correctly it is the plumber that will be held accountable.

Sir Arthur Daley

2011 wrote: »

Assuming that he was prepared to put his requirements in writing and the customer agreed I can't see the problem.

Would a solicitor be necessary present to construct and to have this writing legal binding?

2011

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Would a solicitor be necessary present to construct and to have this writing legal binding?

That depends on your plumber

From my experience if a heating system does not work as it should the memory of different trades can become "confused".
All of a sudden you may find that the customer is told that if the electrician had just wired it as instructed the system would work fine.
By the time the issues with the heating system are detected it may be very expensive and difficult to make the changes that it is claimed are required.

However if you can show that the heating controls function as per the plumber’s instructions by referring to his written instruction that the customer has already approved you are in a far better position. Once heating controls get any way complicated it is not prudent to depend on peoples recollection of conversations that occurred several months ago.

The written description of the operation of heating controls does not have to be an elaborate complicated, document.
It should just be a few lines written in simple English.
You could simply email the customer & plumber with a description starting with “Following our earlier conversation my understanding is that you require the heating controls to function as follows…”. It can finish with “Once you confirm that my interpretation is correct I can then proceed. Please note: It may be costly and / or impossible to make changes at a later date if the job is too advanced”.

That way you are covered and everyone knows where they stand.
The days of verbal contracts and site instructions are long gone.

K.Flyer

If I am working on, for example, a house renovation with all trades on site, and I am doing a heating control system I will map out to the electrician what wiring I want and where and I will check to ensure that its done that way before its all plastered over.
At the end of the day the heating system is my responsibility, because I am the one who will get the call if it does not work.
I know its one of those cross over areas between our trades, but personally I feel if you are working on or installing a heating system you should at least know how it should be wired up, even if you prefer an electrician to do it for you.

2011

K.Flyer wrote: »

If I am working on, for example, a house renovation with all trades on site, and I am doing a heating control system I will map out to the electrician what wiring I want and where and I will check to ensure that its done that way before its all plastered over.

Obviously it is an advantage if the plumber knows how the heating controls should be wired, but this is not essential once the plumber knows how it should function.

Example of control description from plumber to electrician:

3 channel time clock is used to control the heating system:

Channel 1 operation:
This channel is for the downstairs radiators. When activated the downstairs zone valve should open if the downstairs stat reads a temperature that is below the set point on same.

Channel 2 operation:
This channel is for the upstairs radiators. When activated the upstairs zone valve should open if the upstairs stat reads a temperature that is below the set point on same.

Channel 3 operation:
This channel is for the domestic hot water (DHW). When activated the DHW zone valve should open if the hot water cylinder stat reads a temperature that is below the set point on same.

The boiler should only fire one or more of the zone valves are open.
Bring a permanent feed to the boiler for overrun.

___________________

To a competent electrician designing, wiring and testing from the above is not a difficult task.

At the end of the day the heating system is my responsibility, because I am the one who will get the call if it does not work.

Exactly my point.
If the plumber gives simple clear instructions like that to an electrician you should both know exactly where you stand.

salmocab

K.Flyer wrote: »

If I am working on, for example, a house renovation with all trades on site, and I am doing a heating control system I will map out to the electrician what wiring I want and where and I will check to ensure that its done that way before its all plastered over.
At the end of the day the heating system is my responsibility, because I am the one who will get the call if it does not work.
I know its one of those cross over areas between our trades, but personally I feel if you are working on or installing a heating system you should at least know how it should be wired up, even if you prefer an electrician to do it for you.

I must introduce you to the builders we work for

salmocab

2011 wrote: »

Obviously it is an advantage if the plumber knows how the heating controls should be wired, but this is not essential once the plumber knows how it should function.

Example of control description from plumber to electrician:

3 channel time clock is used to control the heating system:

Channel 1 operation:
This channel is for the downstairs radiators. When activated the downstairs zone valve should open if the downstairs stat reads a temperature that is below the set point on same.

Channel 2 operation:
This channel is for the upstairs radiators. When activated the upstairs zone valve should open if the upstairs stat reads a temperature that is below the set point on same.

Channel 3 operation:
This channel is for the domestic hot water (DHW). When activated the DHW zone valve should open if the hot water cylinder stat reads a temperature that is below the set point on same.

The boiler should only fire one or more of the zone valves are open.
Bring a permanent feed to the boiler for overrun.

___________________

To a competent electrician designing, wiring and testing from the above is not a difficult task.



Exactly my point.
If the plumber gives simple clear instructions like that to an electrician you should both know exactly where you stand.

In these types of setups sometimes its more where the MVs end up, had a plumber put the valve in a different location to where he said it was gonna be once i.e. was going to be beside the boiler but ended up beside the hot tank but never mentioned the change till I came back to finish the heating system.

2011

salmocab wrote: »

In these types of setups sometimes its more where the MVs end up

True.

How did it ever come about that two trades are needed to wire a domestic heating system

salmocab

gary71 wrote: »

How did it ever come about that two trades are needed to wire a domestic heating system

Well one does the one that hurts the other does the ones that either get you wet or catches fire. Each to their own

salmocab

salmocab wrote: »

Well one does the one that hurts the other does the ones that either get you wet or catches fire. Each to their own

Yea, but it's really easy to do both without the drama.

frankmul

Going back to the op setup, should there be a mV on the cylinder to prevent it overheating? What is the cylinder stat controlling?

And I'm not trolling, I was used to a environment where sparks rarely wire a domestic heating system, heating engineers do, so the added issues that i come across between the separate trades can be very interesting:D

salmocab

Yeah I know some plumbers that can do the wiring on fairly standard 3 zone systems but it seems that more and more the systems are getting more complicated with UF and various green type installations even occasional dual source systems like the OPs, which I think everyone has forgotten by the way, that have contactors. I think most plumbers especially when its a new build with a spark on site would prefer to leave it to the spark.

tomdempsey200

some larger domestic jobs i worked on a separate company would supply and design the heating system

you would be supplied with data sheets and printed wiring diagrams etc

it's the proper job on any decent project

Tuco88

IMO there the most dangerous system to have in a house, that is unless you have a excellent plumber that installs it correctly. I was told by a very good plumber to stay away from replacing a valve(just the Solenoid) on any system that has a pump or MV on a gravity circuit. He told me the amount of systems that are joined incorrectly is frighting, the pressurized and un-pressured system with no heat sink for the stove so on and no 3Bar SVR for the stove as a fall back.. The system links is apparently a good set up from what I hear anyway.

I have come across more complex heating systems in large modern houses than systems on a large Industrial plants I have been on ha.

Sir Arthur Daley

Tuco88 wrote: »

I was told by a very good plumber to stay away from replacing a valve(just the Solenoid) on any system that has a pump or MV on a gravity circuit.

I would question this very good plumbers advice.

Tuco88

Im open to your views please indulge? His point was there should be no or potential obstructions to a gravity circuit, I think it makes a perfect point.

What would happen to a electrician who worked on a inherently dangerious heating system that went kaboom after he/she left.

Sir Arthur Daley

Tuco88 wrote: »

Im open to your views please indulge?

I owe you an apology, im sorry i took up your post up wrong, yes we are singing off the same hymn sheet.
I read your post too fast, if one was to be called to a job where a restriction like a pump or motoriesd valve on a gravity circuit one would have to stress the dangers of it along with immediate recommendations to rectify it.

beanie10

greenore wrote: »

hi,

system has 2xCH & 1xHW Zones

system also has solid fuel back boiler

system has 2x CH Motorized valves

Garage = Oil Boiler & Pump (No over-run)


Hotpress = Cylinder, 2 motorized valves, CH circulating pump & Back boiler pump, cylinder stat, back boiler stat

so there is 3 zone time clock (2x CH & 1xHW)
2 CH room stats


what i need to happen:
CH1 turned on = fire Boiler + pump(garage) & Circulating pump (hotpress) & open corresponding "MV"
CH2 turned on = fire Boiler + pump(garage) & Circulating pump (hotpress) & open corresponding "MV"
HW turned on = fire Boiler + pump(garage)
Back boiler when lit = opens both CH motorized valves & fires Circulating pump(hotpress)

I need a wiring diagram for this system

if you could be so kind to help me out i would be forever grateful

Greenore to answer your question. First you cannot have any restrictions on solid fuel circuit so solid fuel cannot operate MV.
The solid fuel will will primarily heat hot water then when stove reaches temp the pipe stat brings on pump which is located between rads and MV (plumber will advise on this).
The solid fuel pipe stat is central to this operation. Assuming you have wiring sorted from each channel of time clock to its stat and MV.
The common of solid fuel pipe stat gets a permanent feed. The closed contact of same pipe stat at 60deg then feeds the solid fuel pump (when stove reaches 60 stove pump comes on).
The other contact of pipe stat joins onto all grey wires of motorised valves. All oranges of motorised valves are joined together along with switch wire to oil burner and oul burner pump.
So if you turn on any onw channel of heating its mv will open and oil burner will come on. If you should light the stove and it reaches temp the contacts on pipe stat will change over ie bring on stove pump and kill power to oil burner at same time. If I get a min tomorrow ill draw up a diagram.

Sir Arthur Daley

gary71 wrote: »

What would happen to a electrician who worked on a inherently dangerious heating system that went kaboom after he/she left.

Give an example, an incorrect piped system wired to plumbers spec or incorrectly wired system to correct plumbers pipe spec?

Sir Arthur Daley

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Give an example, an incorrect piped system wired to plumbers spec or incorrectly wired system to correct plumbers spec?

Replacing a defective cylinder stat on a hot water cylinder being fed by a stove or solar that has no blending valve and a child gets badly burnt due to the excessive hot water Temperture, which is a real risk with most solar/stove installations.

Splitting one trade in to two separate trades can have its problems which at times are only a problem when their a problem.

Sir Arthur Daley

gary71 wrote: »

Replacing a defective cylinder stat on a hot water cylinder being fed by a stove or solar that has no blending valve

Are you suggesting one should replace if ones sees a stat that is controlling the temperature input from solid fuel or solar?

Sir Arthur Daley

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Are you suggesting one should replace if ones sees a stat that is controlling the temperature input from solid fuel or solar?

I'm not suggesting anything.

As the one trade is split in to two and electricians are only working on one aspect I'm wondering on liability when the clip board warriors come looking for blood after a issue.

As most cylinders are not fitted with Temperture at tap in mind and ye are working on them after the installer is well gone you may find yourself in the hot seat as the last man there.

I will make a suggestion now, go and sit a G3 safety course (a legal requirement for sparks in the UK)which will help identify these very real issues to protect yourselves from bad working practises.

2011

gary71 wrote: »

And I'm not trolling, I was used to a environment where sparks rarely wire a domestic heating system, heating engineers do, so the added issues that i come across between the separate trades can be very interesting:D

My personal view is that this electrical work should be carried out by a qualified electrician because the electrician will:

1) certify the electrical installation.
2) be the one that is ultimatley responsible for all electrical work.
3) be the one that possesses the necessary test equipment and has been trained to use it.

Plumbing for plumbers and electrical for electricians.

However as the plumber that takes that has selected, sized and designed heating the system this is the person that should inform the electrician of the electrical requirements from a safety as well as from a controls perspective. Ultimately the plumber takes ownership of the heating system, not the electrician.
Commissioning / testing of the system should be a joint exercise IMHO.

tomdempsey200

what could a heating engineer do now with restricted works?

he'd prob have to get registered


have they closed off the loophole allowing non electricIan's to register?

Heating engineers are UK tradesmen trained in all aspects of plumbing and electrics of heating installation as there is a great benefit in fully understanding the environment your working in and the level of control your trying to achieve with the electrical components.

RGIs are have proved their electrical competency with heating installations and allowed to do electrical work from the spur out.

tomdempsey200

none of them have test instruments or copy of wiring rules

the RGI drawings from the gas regs for main bonding as posted here don't comply with the wiring rules

and the test procedure for gas boilers is hazardous and a load of nonsense

tomdempsey200

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

none of them have test instruments or copy of wiring rules

the RGI drawings from the gas regs for main bonding as posted here don't comply with the wiring rules

and the test procedure for gas boilers is hazardous and a load of nonsense

But yet they proved competence and can wire from the spur:eek:


Electrical safety checks serve a purpose and engineers are safer than when there were no checks, Why don't you drop a complainant to RECI who are responsible for the registration of RGIs, you'll get no complaint from me for improving safety.

Tuco88

No problem. Is there any exceptions of where it is allowed a pump on a gravity circuit lets say a long run? probably not tho even with some safety gear before the pump the risk of a power failure is to risky.

Tuco88

gary71 wrote: »

Replacing a defective cylinder stat on a hot water cylinder being fed by a stove or solar that has no blending valve and a child gets badly burnt due to the excessive hot water Temperture, which is a real risk with most solar/stove installations.

Splitting one trade in to two separate trades can have its problems which at times are only a problem when their a problem.

Sorry I am a little lost on this one If I go to replace a damaged cylinder stat fine, I replace it with a new one and set it at 60 Degrees lets say, and the stat fails to operate water goes above 60 how does a bleeding valve have anything to do with the child getting burned or preventing it? I thought the bleeding valve was to let out trapped air in the system usually during commissioning?

Tuco88

Tuco88 wrote: »

Sorry I am a little lost on this one If I go to replace a damaged cylinder stat fine, I replace it with a new one and set it at 60 Degrees lets say, and the stat fails to operate water goes above 60 how does a bleeding valve have anything to do with the child getting burned or preventing it? I thought the bleeding valve was to let out trapped air in the system usually during commissioning?

It's like being a car engine specialist but not knowing anything about breaks and the car you just worked on hit a tree because you didn't know the breaks had gone.

Plumbers are less likely to spot when electricians leaves a Dangerious heating installation without proper training and electricians are less likely to spot when a plumber leaves a Dangerious heating installation.

Electricians can come in to contact with unvented cylinders and it may be on their watch(god forbid) when substantial property damage occurs or somebody gets hurt usually the old and infirm or children.

Are you any less liable for working on something and not recognising it's danger to the home owner.

Unvented cylinders are Dangerious, in the Uk they are covered under G3 regs where every installation is inspected for safety by the local building inspector in Ireland there are no regs and cylinders are rarely fitted properly and often discharge large volumes of water destroying the property's there in.