Meaning of: "No man ever followed his genius till it mislead him."

Roquentin

I have been trying to break down that quote by Thoreau.

"No man ever followed his genius till it mislead him."

It means follow your heart. But i cant systematically understand it, you know like visually.

<No man ever followed his genius>
No man ever followed his soul. I get that part

<till it mislead him>
I have trouble linking this part to the previous part.

Like i said, it means follow yourself. But i cant understand the "till it mislead him" part.

any insight would be great

Torakx

http://wip.donaldguy.com/11/itw.html

“No man ever followed his genius till it misled him,” Thoreau begins. The subtly of this remark is hard to catch and equally hard to digest, to follow one's genius is always to be misled. The point that Thoreau makes as he continues is that the path one is misled from may not have been the correct path.

It is kind of hard to get.
I still don't quite get it.
At first I thought if you follow your genius you will never be mislead.
Then I thought, if you follow your genius you are always mislead, and so you can't follow it until you are misled.
But I don't get first of all, why we are always misled by our genius.
Because it's a natural compulsion and unconscious at the root?
Therefore we shouldn't think too much on our talents, but follow where they take us?

Roquentin

Torakx wrote: »

http://wip.donaldguy.com/11/itw.html


It is kind of hard to get.
I still don't quite get it.
At first I thought if you follow your genius you will never be mislead.
Then I thought, if you follow your genius you are always mislead, and so you can't follow it until you are misled.
But I don't get first of all, why we are always misled by our genius.
Because it's a natural compulsion and unconscious at the root?
Therefore we shouldn't think too much on our talents, but follow where they take us?

I thought it was that alright. Follow yourself and you will be grand.

Your bit about the talents might have substance. rather than lets say if you are good at maths and do something mathematical, instead just follow yourself.

I dont know. I still cant decipher it word for word. The first bit i understand.

The second part i cant grasp
<till it mislead him> I kept doing something until i went the wrong way??? maybe

How does the first part link to the second part though?

cheers anyhow.

Black Swan

Meaning of: "No man ever followed his genius till it mislead him." Good question Roquentin. Henry David Thoreau is an interesting free thinker, and very appropriate for discussion in our Philosophy forum. I wish we had more threads that explored his thoughts.

I must admit that I will have to ponder this statement before venturing an interpretation. A fun challenge indeed. Thanks.

Joe1919

Rather than trying to make sense of the sentence on its own, I would suggest that you read the entire Chapter 11, which is called 'Higher Laws'. I am inclined to see Thoreau here as a bit of a romantic and religious ascetic. (see especially section 8)

Walden by Henry David Thoreau - 1854

11. Higher Laws.......
[7] If one listens to the faintest but constant suggestions of his genius, which are certainly true, he sees not to what extremes, or even insanity, it may lead him; and yet that way, as he grows more resolute and faithful, his road lies. The faintest assured objection which one healthy man feels will at length prevail over the arguments and customs of mankind. No man ever followed his genius till it misled him. Though the result were bodily weakness, yet perhaps no one can say that the consequences were to be regretted, for these were a life in conformity to higher principles.

http://thoreau.eserver.org/walden11.html

Roquentin

Black Swan wrote: »

Meaning of: "No man ever followed his genius till it mislead him." Good question Roquentin. Henry David Thoreau is an interesting free thinker, and very appropriate for discussion in our Philosophy forum. I wish we had more threads that explored his thoughts.

I must admit that I will have to ponder this statement before venturing an interpretation. A fun challenge indeed. Thanks.

Yea, i have been trying to systematically understand the quote. The "till it misled him," part is getting me.

Walden is a good read if you read a few pages at a time.

Some great quotes from the guy as well.

Roquentin

Joe1919 wrote: »

Rather than trying to make sense of the sentence on its own, I would suggest that you read the entire Chapter 11, which is called 'Higher Laws'. I am inclined to see Thoreau here as a bit of a romantic and religious ascetic. (see especially section 8)

Walden by Henry David Thoreau - 1854

11. Higher Laws.......
[7] If one listens to the faintest but constant suggestions of his genius, which are certainly true, he sees not to what extremes, or even insanity, it may lead him; and yet that way, as he grows more resolute and faithful, his road lies. The faintest assured objection which one healthy man feels will at length prevail over the arguments and customs of mankind. No man ever followed his genius till it misled him. Though the result were bodily weakness, yet perhaps no one can say that the consequences were to be regretted, for these were a life in conformity to higher principles.

http://thoreau.eserver.org/walden11.html

I understand his overall point. That if you follow your own calling and not that of others, you will live a more content life.....i think.

But i still cant break down the expression "No man ever followed his genius, till it misled him." and how it works into the paragraph you highlighted.

I have been stuck trying to understand it for a while now.

cheers anyhow

Joe1919

Roquentin wrote: »

I understand his overall point. That if you follow your own calling and not that of others, you will live a more content life.....i think.

But i still cant break down the expression "No man ever followed his genius, till it misled him." and how it works into the paragraph you highlighted.

I think the sentence 'The faintest assured objection which one healthy man feels will at length prevail over the arguments and customs of mankind.' which is immediately before 'No man ever followed his genius till it misled him.' is informative. Thoreau (imo) in common with the romantics , puts a lot of trust in his 'feelings'. So I am inclined to think that perhaps he is saying that its the 'heart' that prevent man from following his genius to the point of been misled.

In moral philosophy, there is a debate between moral realists/rationalists (who think that we can rationally decide on whats right or wrong) and moral anti-rationalists (who see sympathy and possibly human nature) as the source of morality. Hume (reason is the slave of the passions) would be in this latter group and I would place Thoreau here also.

I think the point is that 'reason' in itself cannot provide the motivation (passion). Hence (perhaps), when a man 'follow his genius', its the heart that's in control.

Torakx

I think you explained it very well there Joe.
I was still having trouble figuring out what exactly the wording refered to.
But that is a great interpretation.
And also some very interesting info on philosophy in general. Thanks

Oh.. on a personal note, I have noticed that since following my dreams, instead of doing "the right thing" according to the majorities views, I have become much more happy in myself and the work I do now is much more fullfilling and of a higher quality.
I went from being a woodmachinist, to a game developer(well budding game dev still).

The wood machining was my "sensible" choice to gain security. It turns out it was'nt very secure after 2008 and I didn't enjoy it...
So I must agree from experience so far, that this philosophical quote has some truth to it.

Roquentin

Joe1919 wrote: »

I think the sentence 'The faintest assured objection which one healthy man feels will at length prevail over the arguments and customs of mankind.' which is immediately before 'No man ever followed his genius till it misled him.' is informative. Thoreau (imo) in common with the romantics , puts a lot of trust in his 'feelings'. So I am inclined to think that perhaps he is saying that its the 'heart' that prevent man from following his genius to the point of been misled.

In moral philosophy, there is a debate between moral realists/rationalists (who think that we can rationally decide on whats right or wrong) and moral anti-rationalists (who see sympathy and possibly human nature) as the source of morality. Hume (reason is the slave of the passions) would be in this latter group and I would place Thoreau here also.

I think the point is that 'reason' in itself cannot provide the motivation (passion). Hence (perhaps), when a man 'follow his genius', its the heart that's in control.

Hi

So you are saying that it is the feelings of others that prevent man from following his soul "genius". i.e. as in it is that he is misled by the heart of others?

or

That his own feelings (his own heart) prevents him from being who he wants to be and misleads him. He may want to go his own path, but the "feelings," of remaining conventional may prevent him from doing so?

Thanks anyhow for you info. very informative

Roquentin

Torakx wrote: »

I think you explained it very well there Joe.
I was still having trouble figuring out what exactly the wording refered to.
But that is a great interpretation.
And also some very interesting info on philosophy in general. Thanks

Oh.. on a personal note, I have noticed that since following my dreams, instead of doing "the right thing" according to the majorities views, I have become much more happy in myself and the work I do now is much more fullfilling and of a higher quality.
I went from being a woodmachinist, to a game developer(well budding game dev still).

The wood machining was my "sensible" choice to gain security. It turns out it was'nt very secure after 2008 and I didn't enjoy it...
So I must agree from experience so far, that this philosophical quote has some truth to it.

Yea, the biggest mistake i made was in following what others told me to do with regards the college choices. Would have loved to have studied pure mathematics, but went down the accounting route for like you say security.

Ah i was young and stupid and thought i knew it all

Torakx

Roquentin wrote: »

Hi

So you are saying that it is the feelings of others that prevent man from following his soul "genius". i.e. as in it is that he is misled by the heart of others?

or

That his own feelings (his own heart) prevents him from being who he wants to be and misleads him. He may want to go his own path, but the "feelings," of remaining conventional may prevent him from doing so?

Thanks anyhow for you info. very informative

I think he is saying that the heart keeps us on the right track and should take more priority over thinking. Thinking should probably be a support for the "genius". and so when the genius takes the lead, you can't be mislead by your thinking.
Basically follow your heart, as you said earlier I think.
Or.. you could say, the heart knows best.

Not sure I agree with that philosophy as an absolute though
If I think long enough , I might come up with reasons why the heart might lead us astray too. Actually, I would just counter that again with duality, in saying that any negative events, highlight also the contrasts and help us evolve too. And if the heart leads us into darkness, it might be for the best in the long run.
I try not to believe in good and bad for this reason.
Neither seem to fit into my paradigm anymore.

Joe1919

Roquentin wrote: »

Hi

So you are saying that it is the feelings of others that prevent man from following his soul "genius". i.e. as in it is that he is misled by the heart of others?

or

That his own feelings (his own heart) prevents him from being who he wants to be and misleads him. He may want to go his own path, but the "feelings," of remaining conventional may prevent him from doing so?

Thanks anyhow for you info. very informative

I think neither of the quotes may be helpful, especially as Thoreau was far from conventional. I agree with Torakx that 'I think he is saying that the heart keeps us on the right track and should take more priority over thinking'

I think that Thoreau, as a transcendentalist, believed that truth could be discovered within. It could be felt. I also think they (the transcendentalists) were both influenced by and reacting against the rational and universal duty based moral philosophies of Kant and Hegel, which would later be molded and re-shaped by Marx and puts great emphasis on the common good etc., at the expense of the individual.

I think there is a dichotomy here. The rationalists tends to favor universal laws, common good etc. at the expense of the freedom of the individual; whereas the transcendentalists and romantics (and later existentialists) put the individual feeling person first.

Joe1919

Torakx wrote: »

If I think long enough, I might come up with reasons why the heart might lead us astray too.

I agree.

ceegee

Roquentin wrote: »

I have been trying to break down that quote by Thoreau.

"No man ever followed his genius till it mislead him."

It means follow your heart. But i cant systematically understand it, you know like visually.

<No man ever followed his genius>
No man ever followed his soul. I get that part

<till it mislead him>
I have trouble linking this part to the previous part.

Like i said, it means follow yourself. But i cant understand the "till it mislead him" part.

any insight would be great

"Followed his genius till it mislead him" - ie his genius led him down a path of life which ultimately was the wrong one.

He is saying that by following your genius/passion you will always end up where you should be in life


(This is all just imo and Im no expert in this area so could be way off)

Roquentin

Thanks lads. i think im getting the gist of it now.

<No man> There is no man
<followed his genius> Who did what his heart his told him to do
<till it misled him> And did not regret it, because you cannot be misled by your feelings (heart)

putting it all together:

There is no man (who regretted his choices in life) because he was following what his heart told him to do, because you cannot be misled by your heart.

In other words it is your thinking that misleads you or maybe you are preoccupied by the destination rather than the journey

Black Swan

Roquentin wrote: »

Thanks lads. i think im getting the gist of it now.

Interesting topic and discussion. Please bring more. Thanks.

Roquentin

Black Swan wrote: »

Interesting topic and discussion. Please bring more. Thanks.

If someone wants to suggest another one..... (would probably need a new thread)
I will keep an eye out for any other tough ones to understand

irishmays

Are ye sure it's to do with heart and soul. And not more to do with our inherent ability to make and do evil things. Enstein was a genius, and he regreted it when he was led down the wrong path. He knew from the beginning it probably would cause mass destruction but his genius couldn't help itself

irishmays

Are ye sure it's to do with heart and soul. And not more to do with our inherent ability to make and do evil things. Enstein was a genius, and he regreted it when he was led down the wrong path. He knew from the beginning it probably would cause mass destruction but his genius couldn't help itself

Roquentin

irishmays wrote: »

Are ye sure it's to do with heart and soul. And not more to do with our inherent ability to make and do evil things. Enstein was a genius, and he regreted it when he was led down the wrong path. He knew from the beginning it probably would cause mass destruction but his genius couldn't help itself

it was oppenheimer and others who devised the Atom Bomb. Sure he used einsteins e=mc^2 but that is only a simplistic equation with regards the engineering behind the technology. I am sure they would have went into much greater depth and used much more complex mathematics.

Feynman developed some equation i believe and fluid dynamics were used a lot as well.

Your thought did make me laugh though

Baked.noodle

My interpretation of "No man ever followed his genius till it mislead him." is as follows.

No man ever understood and trusted his natural gift (genius) until it brought him to an unexpected/unintended place/idea and that revelation subsequently illuminated and inspired confidence in his genius.

I think there is something instinctual to genius that is outside logical steps and more holistic in understanding.