Ireland 'the most truly Muslim country in the world'

confusedquark

I came across the Irish Times article yesterday with the headline Ireland is 'the most truly Muslim country in the world'.

I find it very bizarre I'll be honest. I've had my suspicions regarding just how Islamic many Muslim-predominant countries actually are, but didn't for a second think they'd actually be a country mile behind non-Muslim countries in practicing Islamic principles, with only Malaysia (33) and Kuwait (42) in the top 50 countries, and Saudi in 91st.

Of course it calls into question study bias and what criteria they actually used. Have gone googling and found the published articles, which actually go back to 2010. One was the Economic Islamicity Index (which Ireland topped) and the other Overall Islamicity Index Rank (with similar results, Ireland third)

Regarding the Economic Islamicity Index, they've used 12 broad areas with further sub-categories - don't want to copy the whole lot here, it's all on pages 25-31 in that first document, but the 12 broad areas are:
(1) Equal economic opportunities for all members of society & economic
freedom,
(2) Economic equity,
(3) Personal property rights and sanctity of contracts,
(4) Job creation for all that can and want to work & equal availability of
employment,
(5) Equal availability of education,
(6) Poverty prevention and reduction; basic need fulfillment of food, shelter,
clothing and rest; and alms giving to charity,
(7) Taxation to meet the unfulfilled needs of society & to address social issues generally,
(8) Appropriate management of natural and depletable resources to benefit all members of current and future generations,
(9) Abolition of corrupt practices,
(10) Establishment of a supportive financial system,
(11) Financial practices that includes the abolition of interest, and
(12) The effectiveness of the state in achieving the above (general economic
prosperity)

The Overall Islamicity Index Rank incorporates the Economic Islamicity index above, as well as three other indexes:
Legal and Governance Islamicity Index
Human and Political Rights Islamicity Index
International Relations Islamicity Index

With further subcategories in each of them.

On the whole, there's a lot there, but there's a lot left out as well. From a strictly economic point of view, the Economic Islamicity Index does make some sense. The "Overall Islamicity Index" on the other hand is certainly something that would need to incorporate many other issues such as alcohol and drugs availability/laws, gambling, Halal procedures/availability, availability of Mosques, laws on things like fornication/adultery, abortion, etc. etc. so I think the authors have done a bit of picking and choosing with that.

Nonetheless, it's a useful study to look at from a point of view of what Islam teaches aside from the same select few topics that come up again and again, and the fact that the majority of Islamic countries fall well short on the issues that were looked at, the least that it shows is that Muslim-predominant and Islamic are far from synonymous (today at least).

Sacksian

confusedquark wrote: »

The "Overall Islamicity Index" on the other hand is certainly something that would need to incorporate many other issues such as alcohol and drugs availability/laws, gambling, Halal procedures/availability, availability of Mosques, laws on things like fornication/adultery, abortion, etc. etc. so I think the authors have done a bit of picking and choosing with that.

Actually, I was surprised to learn that Islam is generally more liberal with regard to abortion than Catholicism - allowing abortion within the first four months and also that Islam considers the woman's life more valuable than that of the foetus.

mezuzaj

Hopefully Syria, Iraq and others will someday have the same freedoms as Ireland. The sad reality is that in majority Muslim countries the minorities are treated very very bad. 2 Millions Christians in Saudi Arabia.. but no church..

We Irish go out of our way to help Muslims,, but in Muslim countries there is not the same respect.

confusedquark

Sacksian wrote: »

Actually, I was surprised to learn that Islam is generally more liberal with regard to abortion than Catholicism - allowing abortion within the first four months and also that Islam considers the woman's life more valuable than that of the foetus.

I'm pretty sure in Catholicism the woman's life is more valuable than the baby's as well, and abortion is permitted if the mother's life is at risk.

Islam might be a fraction more liberal than Catholicism, but it's still far far from "Pro-choice". Abortion, even before four months, is still generally considered wrong - and is only allowed in exceptional circumstances, e.g. rape or severe foetal deformities, and there's disagreement between scholars even in those cases.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/islamethics/abortion_1.shtml

confusedquark

mezuzaj wrote: »

The sad reality is that in majority Muslim countries the minorities are treated very very bad. 2 Millions Christians in Saudi Arabia.. but no church..

We Irish go out of our way to help Muslims,, but in Muslim countries there is not the same respect.

You pretty much said the same thing in the other thread:

mezuzaj wrote: »

When muslims ask for us to respect their rights, it should work both ways.

mezuzaj wrote: »

I say that the west should allow mosques to be built the same size as the churches in Saudi Arabia.

You keep bringing up Saudi Arabia, one of around 50 Muslim-predominant countries in the world, and are calling for discrimination against Muslims living in the west because of the carry ons of that one country (which incidentally came 91st in the study above).

Sacksian

confusedquark wrote: »

I'm pretty sure in Catholicism the woman's life is more valuable than the baby's as well, and abortion is permitted if the mother's life is at risk.

Islam might be a fraction more liberal than Catholicism, but it's still far far from "Pro-choice". Abortion, even before four months, is still generally considered wrong - and is only allowed in exceptional circumstances, e.g. rape or severe foetal deformities, and there's disagreement between scholars even in those cases.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/islamethics/abortion_1.shtml

Considerably more liberal than Catholicism according to most quotes from the link you've posted. This one is very pro-choice:

But Islam is also a religion of compassion, and if there are serious problems, God sometimes doesn't require his creatures to practice his law. So under some conditions--such as parents' poverty or overpopulation--then abortion is allowed,

- Grand Ayatollah Yusuf Saanei quoted in Los Angeles Times, December 29, 2000

Most of the stuff I've read also agrees that abortion is permitted before "the soul is breathed into his body...", which is under 120 days.

Narrated Abdullah: Allah's Apostle, the true and truly inspired said, "(as regards your creation), every one of you is collected in the womb of his mother for the first forty days, and then he becomes a clot for another forty days, and then a piece of flesh for another forty days. Then Allah sends an angel to write four words: He writes his deeds, time of his death, means of his livelihood, and whether he will be wretched or blessed (in religion). Then the soul is breathed into his body..."

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 549

Just thought it was interesting...

confusedquark

Sacksian wrote: »

Considerably more liberal than Catholicism according to most quotes from the link you've posted. This one is very pro-choice:

But Islam is also a religion of compassion, and if there are serious problems, God sometimes doesn't require his creatures to practice his law. So under some conditions--such as parents' poverty or overpopulation--then abortion is allowed,
- Grand Ayatollah Yusuf Saanei quoted in Los Angeles Times, December 29, 2000

I find that opinion rather odd, I'll be honest. Exceptions can be made to Islamic laws under extreme circumstances (such as only having bacon to eat when starving in a dessert), but his opinion goes directly against a Quranic verse which specifically addresses the extreme situation he mentions (also mentioned in the article)

"Kill not your offspring for fear of poverty; it is We who provide for them and for you. Surely, killing them is a great sin." Qur'an 17:32

I wouldn't agree that most quotes in that article are considerably more liberal than Catholicism.

"Some schools of Muslim law permit abortion in the first 16 weeks of pregnancy, while others only permit it in the first 7 weeks. However, even those scholars who would permit early abortion in certain cases still regard abortion as wrong."

"Most Muslim scholars would say that a foetus in the womb is recognised and protected by Islam as a human life."

"In recent times in Iran, Ayatollah Ali Khameni has issued a fatwa permitting abortion for foetuses under 10 weeks shown to have the genetic blood disorder thalassemia."

"Widely quoted is a resolution of the Islamic jurisprudence council of Mekkah Al Mukaramah (the Islamic World League) passing a Fatwa in its 12th session held in February 1990. This allowed abortion if the foetus was:

grossly malformed with untreatable severe condition proved by medical investigations and decided upon by a committee formed by competent trustworthy physicians, and provided that abortion is requested by the parents and the foetus is less than 120 days computed from moment of conception"

"Islam does not permit abortion where an unwanted pregnancy is the result of unforced adultery."

"It's important to note that many scholars believe that life begins at conception, and that all scholars believe that an embryo deserves respect and protection at all stages of the pregnancy."

Sacksian wrote: »

Most of the stuff I've read also agrees that abortion is permitted before "the soul is breathed into his body...", which is under 120 days.

It's not permitted willy nilly under 120 days, e.g. in the case of an unwanted pregnancy. It's only permitted under 120 days if an extreme circumstance is present, e.g. baby having a severe malformation, mother's life being at risk, and possibly in cases of rape (although there's dispute over that). Poverty and overpopulation are not generally accepted indications.

Sacksian wrote: »

Just thought it was interesting...

It certainly is

moc moc a moc

When's the last time we had a suicide bombing in Ireland?

///3power

moc moc a moc wrote: »

When's the last time we had a suicide bombing in Ireland?

Title of the thread is "Ireland 'the most truly Muslim country'"

Suicide bombing is not part of Muslim teachings. On the contrary God says in the Qur'an 4:29;

"O you who have believed, do not consume one another's wealth unjustly but only [in lawful] business by mutual consent. And do not kill yourselves [or one another]. Indeed, Allah is to you ever Merciful."

May you be granted knowledge before your time is up.

Tom Dunne

moc moc a moc wrote: »

When's the last time we had a suicide bombing in Ireland?

If you have nothing constructive to add to the thread, please stay out of it.

celtenal

Tom Dunne wrote: »

If you have nothing constructive to add to the thread, please stay out of it.

I thought his input was very constructive.

Owryan

moc moc a moc wrote: »

When's the last time we had a suicide bombing in Ireland?

The troubles in the north.... http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_bomb. Fwiw the ira employed suicide bombers in the north, of course they volunteered the driver

celtenal

Hardly the same when the individual is not doing it on a voluntary basis and is not expecting a bunch of virgins in a whorehouse in the sky afterwards as a reward though is it now?

///3power

celtenal wrote: »

Hardly the same when the individual is not doing it on a voluntary basis and is not expecting a bunch of virgins in a whorehouse in the sky afterwards as a reward though is it now?

Show me the Islamic scriptures that makes such promises?

If it is the truth you speak.

Truth, or are you a brainwashed gullible misfortune?

Tom Dunne

celtenal wrote: »

Hardly the same when the individual is not doing it on a voluntary basis and is not expecting a bunch of virgins in a whorehouse in the sky afterwards as a reward though is it now?

Banned for being a re-reg troll.