In one sentence, Enda Kenny exposes the whip system for the undemocratic joke it is

hatrickpatrick

A political row has blown up over the banking enquiry, after a senator's absence led to the government parties (gasp!!!) losing their majority on the committee.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/government-must-have-majority-on-banking-inquiry-1.1827267

Fianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin expressed outrage when Enda Kenny said the inquiry could not go ahead without a Government majority.
Mr Kenny said that “in order for terms of reference to be adopted and for a mandate to be given the Government need to have a majority here and that matter is being considered now by the Senate”.
He added: “Clearly the situation that applies at the moment mean that the Government don’t have a majority.”
When Mr Martin intervened to insist the committee had been chosen, Mr Kenny said: “How do I know what the members will do?”
He added: “The committee can’t adopt terms of reference unless you have a approval from the committee. How do I know what your members will do? I don’t know,” he said to Mr Martin.
When the Fianna Fáil leader tried intervene again Ceann Comhairle Sean Barrett ruled him out of order and insisted he sit down.
When Mr Martin refused the Dáil was suspended for 10 minutes.

[Emphasis is mine]

I'm not sure if Enda realizes the profound nature of these remarks. In one sentence, he has publicly exposed our current parliamentary system for the absolute sham that it is. I've been saying for a long time, as have others, that instead of the parliament being a check on the executive, as a parliamentary system was envisioned initially, it is instead an entirely irrelevant rubber stamp. One could abolish the Dail tomorrow morning and very little substantial change would be made to what laws actually end up on the statute books and what laws do not.

It's high time we had a serious, high profile and determined national conversation about this. The situation is an absolute joke, and there are many things which could be done about it - from reform of Dail standing orders so as not to prioritize party members for speaking time, to a complete overhaul of how "government" is defined and how the cabinet is chosen, this ridiculous non representative non democracy can be fixed. But it won't happen until enough people are made aware of the current shambles and enough people get concerned about it.

I'm not posting this because the nature of the current system should come as a surprise to anyone, I'm posting it because Enda Kenny has, probably unwittingly, publicly stated on the record how dictatorial this system is, and that gives us a prime opportunity for the kind of national debate we desperately need.

Thoughts?

renegademaster

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

A political row has blown up over the banking enquiry, after a senator's absence led to the government parties (gasp!!!) losing their majority on the committee.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/government-must-have-majority-on-banking-inquiry-1.1827267


[Emphasis is mine]

I'm not sure if Enda realizes the profound nature of these remarks. In one sentence, he has publicly exposed our current parliamentary system for the absolute sham that it is. I've been saying for a long time, as have others, that instead of the parliament being a check on the executive, as a parliamentary system was envisioned initially, it is instead an entirely irrelevant rubber stamp. One could abolish the Dail tomorrow morning and very little substantial change would be made to what laws actually end up on the statute books and what laws do not.

It's high time we had a serious, high profile and determined national conversation about this. The situation is an absolute joke, and there are many things which could be done about it - from reform of Dail standing orders so as not to prioritize party members for speaking time, to a complete overhaul of how "government" is defined and how the cabinet is chosen, this ridiculous non representative non democracy can be fixed. But it won't happen until enough people are made aware of the current shambles and enough people get concerned about it.

I'm not posting this because the nature of the current system should come as a surprise to anyone, I'm posting it because Enda Kenny has, probably unwittingly, publicly stated on the record how dictatorial this system is, and that gives us a prime opportunity for the kind of national debate we desperately need.

Thoughts?

pigs will fly before people give enough of a shlt about anything to get off their fat arses here!! what you are saying is correct and I'm angry enough about the state of our government and lack of true democracy to stand along with you but we'll be pretty much on our own and will eventually run out of steam and go home defeated.

tracking

Seems all EK is "sincerely" asking for and partners are mum is "Anything but a Planning Inquiry".

Beggers the question, when seeking Office what he meant by "transparancy and accountabillity".

Sand

This is why people should vote for Independent candidates. A vote on a whipped party candidate is a vote wasted. None of the parties will ever seriously reform the Dail - if you were Enda Kenny, would you order your TD drones to stop obeying you? If you were a TD drone would you ever dare disobey your boss on a point of constitutional principle?

Happily, polls and indeed electoral results are demonstrating the increasing decline of the party vote and the increasing share of the Independant vote. Independants are the only real hope for reform in Ireland.

wow sierra

People are really angry about this. The Senate vote for their two Reps and Enda doesn't like it so he has the Seanad Committee on Procedure and Privileges look into it. Even when they say they can do nothing he still proceeds to overrule the democratic process and appoint two more Senators so he has his majority.

You couldn't make it up. As someone said to me today - If they behave like that in the open, in the full glare of publicity, what is going on behind the scenes?

Kenny doesn't allow debate in the Dáil and is assisted in this by the Ceann Comhairle, as the OP says. He personally attacks any member of the opposition who tries to make a point, rather than engaging in debate. He wields the Party whip in a way that makes Charlie Haughey look like a lamb. He knows he is safe in power as long as Labour don't pull the plug so he is happy to rule as a dictator.

But his Banking Enquiry has ZERO credibility now - and if he thinks it has he is deluded.

expectationlost

Susan O'Keefe is the Taoiseach's yes man we have the confirmed today http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-adds-two-members-to-banking-inquiry-committee-1.1829876 she's no hero of old she dropped all her critical faculties when she joined labour a few years ago and has done nothing but be a labour party hq mouthpiece since.

View

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

instead of the parliament being a check on the executive, as a parliamentary system was envisioned initially,

Parliament is NOT envisaged as being a check on the government in the Westminster parliamentary system we use.

Please stop using the American system as your template for how we govern ourselves when that is not the system we use.

20Cent

Fianna Fail want Marc McSharry on the committee. McSharry's father is a director in Bank of Ireland and Irish Life and Permanent. A clear conflict of interest he'd be investigating his own father.

hatrickpatrick

View wrote: »

Parliament is NOT envisaged as being a check on the government in the Westminster parliamentary system we use.

Please stop using the American system as your template for how we govern ourselves when that is not the system we use.

Well then what is it, and what's the point of it?
And if parliament isn't the check on the cabinet, what is?

Lou.m

I am not so sure he is deluded. He knows the electorate.

I'm not sure if Enda realizes the profound nature of these remarks. In one sentence, he has publicly exposed our current parliamentary system for the absolute sham that it is. I've been saying for a long time, as have others, that instead of the parliament being a check on the executive, as a parliamentary system was envisioned initially, it is instead an entirely irrelevant rubber stamp. One could abolish the Dail tomorrow morning and very little substantial change would be made to what laws actually end up on the statute books and what laws do not.

No I think he does. I think the people know a govt of independents is going to be chaotic or is going to do deals left right and centre with FF and FG or they ARE ex FF and ex FG.

Wow Sierra said.

You couldn't make it up. As someone said to me today - If they behave like that in the open, in the full glare of publicity, what is going on behind the scenes?

Kenny doesn't allow debate in the Dáil and is assisted in this by the Ceann Comhairle, as the OP says. He personally attacks any member of the opposition who tries to make a point, rather than engaging in debate. He wields the Party whip in a way that makes Charlie Haughey look like a lamb. He knows he is safe in power as long as Labour don't pull the plug so he is happy to rule as a dictator.

But his Banking Enquiry has ZERO credibility now - and if he thinks it has he is deluded.

I don't think the general public are aware of HOW bad it is. And those who do know are aware of how few real options to have in voting.

I don't know where we will be in a few years time. He is getting progressively worse.

petronius

The promise of New Politics - what a bunch of Hypocrites we elect to office
An Independent Inquiry must have a government majority so as it can not be truly independent
Enda Control Freak Kenny destroys any vestige of the promise of new politics as he stacks the deck in the Banking Inquiry

View

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Well then what is it, and what's the point of it?
And if parliament isn't the check on the cabinet, what is?

A parliament is a legislature, there to pass, amend and reject legislation.

The government is formed based on the Westminister systems' ideas of "supply" & "confidence". It must be capable of securing a majority within the parliament on budgets & legislation (in theory major pieces but the members of the Oireachtas seem to regard virtually every piece of legislation and vote as major in practise).

Either parliament supplies a government with a majority for its programme or the government will be voted out of office fairly rapidly should parliament fail to do so on a near continuous basis.

hatrickpatrick

View wrote: »

A parliament is a legislature, there to pass, amend and reject legislation.

The government is formed based on the Westminister systems' ideas of "supply" & "confidence". It must be capable of securing a majority within the parliament on budgets & legislation (in theory major pieces but the members of the Oireachtas seem to regard virtually every piece of legislation and vote as major in practise).

Either parliament supplies a government with a majority for its programme or the government will be voted out of office fairly rapidly should parliament fail to do so on a near continuous basis.

Alright, well then if that's the case I'll amend my viewpoint from wanting to make our parliament work as intended, to wanting to change how it's intended to work and how it works. In the system you have described, there is effectively no real check on cabinet power, which is absurd. TDs should be more or less independent from the cabinet, otherwise what's the point of having them? You could abolish parliament, keep the cabinet, save ridiculous amounts of money, and broadly speaking the change to which laws actually end up getting passed would be fairly minimal.

This system is toxic to democracy.

View

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Alright, well then if that's the case I'll amend my viewpoint from wanting to make our parliament work as intended, to wanting to change how it's intended to work and how it works.

Fair enough. Just remember though you need an alternative system to replace the current one (e.g. A presidential system).

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

In the system you have described, there is effectively no real check on cabinet power, which is absurd. TDs should be more or less independent from the cabinet,

The Government is DEPENDENT on TDs for any majority it needs. TDs ARE independent of the Government, but CHOOSE to support or oppose it based on their political views.

TDs are not all there to act as a permanent opposition to "check" the government. Such a government would fall very rapidly were that to happen.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

otherwise what's the point of having them?

To act as legislators and for them to make their decisions on supporting or opposing legislation be it government proposal based or not.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

You could abolish parliament, keep the cabinet, save ridiculous amounts of money, and broadly speaking the change to which laws actually end up getting passed would be fairly minimal.

You could but then you wouldn't have a parliamentary system of government.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This system is toxic to democracy.

The system is democracy and probably the most widely used democratic system at that.

The voters in case you have missed it are not voting to change it, and seem to have little interest in considering doing so.

Mind you there are definitely changes we should make to our current system as, for instance, the voting system "encourages" people to a vote for politicians because they are nice and/or local rather than because the voters agree with their policies.

Busted Flat.

Kenny showed the country, democracy means nothing.

cerastes

View wrote: »

Fair enough. Just remember though you need an alternative system to replace the current one (e.g. A presidential system).


The system is democracy and probably the most widely used democratic system at that.

The voters in case you have missed it are not voting to change it, and seem to have little interest in considering doing so.

Mind you there are definitely changes we should make to our current system as, for instance, the voting system "encourages" people to a vote for politicians because they are nice and/or local rather than because the voters agree with their policies.

How do you mean, we can only vote for what is presented to us, change outside that is not tolerated, protest is looked down upon or shut down and ignored. We are reliant on whats being offered, and before someone says, why doesnt someone present themselves as a candidate, its just not that straight forward.
I dont think people are fully aware of how the system works and most people are too involved in their own lives, either managing to get by and make ends meet, or have no awareness of politics or interest.
Education on how the system is supposed to work is needed for a start, a discussion on what needs to be changed as thats not even on the table from political parties, its been a long time since I believed we have democracy here.

Good loser

cerastes wrote: »

How do you mean, we can only vote for what is presented to us, change outside that is not tolerated, protest is looked down upon or shut down and ignored. We are reliant on whats being offered, and before someone says, why doesnt someone present themselves as a candidate, its just not that straight forward.
I dont think people are fully aware of how the system works and most people are too involved in their own lives, either managing to get by and make ends meet, or have no awareness of politics or interest.
Education on how the system is supposed to work is needed for a start, a discussion on what needs to be changed as thats not even on the table from political parties, its been a long time since I believed we have democracy here.

What are you talking about? We have a perfectly nomal political democracy working well here. All that's wrong with it ( if anything) is the intimidation/bullying generated by the electorate on the TDs. These run hither and thither trying to placate an electorate of wasters. Signs on more and more of that electorate is voting Independent. We get the Govt we deserve.

Satriale

Good loser wrote: »

What are you talking about? We have a perfectly nomal political democracy working well here. All that's wrong with it ( if anything) is the intimidation/bullying generated by the electorate on the TDs. These run hither and thither trying to placate an electorate of wasters. Signs on more and more of that electorate is voting Independent. We get the Govt we deserve.

http://www.thejournal.ie/stephen-donnelly-quits-banking-inquiry-1518386-Jun2014/

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/stephen-donnelly-why-i-will-not-take-part-in-this-banking-inquiry-30355013.html

Perfectly normal democracy indeed, just as long as you can manipulate it to your ends.

nice_guy80

And they wonder why Independents are getting such a large vote?

Overheal

So your government can't go forward because some of your elected officials are sleeping in or scoffing off?

As voters why arent you looking into their whereabouts and ascertaining why they arent doing the job you hired them to do?

steddyeddy

It's corruption and a contempt for the electorate pure and simple.

Good loser

It's a relief to have that political poser, Donnelly, off the committee - however it came about.

The filling of the committee is democracy in action - it could only be done with the consent of the majority; that's what voting entails.

The agreement before the botched vote was to have two from the Senate - Susan O Keefe and another. That is now the case.

Anyway that whole enquiry is a waste of time and money.

renegademaster

Good loser wrote: »

It's a relief to have that political poser, Donnelly, off the committee - however it came about.

The filling of the committee is democracy in action - it could only be done with the consent of the majority; that's what voting entails.

The agreement before the botched vote was to have two from the Senate - Susan O Keefe and another. That is now the case.

Anyway that whole enquiry is a waste of time and money.

political poser??

The_Captain

Absolutely pathetic behaviour from Enda. All he's managed to do here is to make himself look very very insecure while destroying the public's faith in the banking enquiry.

Sierra Oscar

The handling of the banking inquiry by the government is an absolute joke. The Taoiseach wants a majority to ensure that the inquiry only goes as far as the 2011 General Election despite many key decisions having being made after that by the current government.

It should have always been an independent inquiry led by a panel of experts, most who are from outside the state to ensure impartiality.

All of this farce is just another example of the government failing to implement the political reform that it promised, what a let down these last few years have been.

Riskymove

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

It should have always been an independent inquiry led by a panel of experts, most who are from outside the state to ensure impartiality.

absolutely

regardless of whether it was a govt or opposition majority this inquiry would be a political football

Busted Flat.

The_Captain wrote: »

Absolutely pathetic behaviour from Enda. All he's managed to do here is to make himself look very very insecure while destroying the public's faith in the banking enquiry.

Ursula Halligan sorted that, Flowerpotgate.:D:D

gizmo555

The_Captain wrote: »

Absolutely pathetic behaviour from Enda. All he's managed to do here is to make himself look very very insecure while destroying the public's faith in the banking enquiry.

Spot on. And Noonan is on the air this evening describing the failure of government senators to show up for a vote as a "Fianna Fáil stroke". How did that work? Did they kidnap Susan O'Keefe?

In my view, all the non-government senators (and any government senators who have any self respect) should follow Stephen Donnelly's example and resign from the committee.

Awkward Badger

So the latest is Kenny is claiming that the coalition members have been removed from the party whip and they are acting independently on the committee. He is also calling for Donnelly to rejoin the committee.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/taoiseach-appeals-to-stephen-donnelly-to-rejoin-banking-inquiry-30357867.html

Given his initial comments on his reasons for adding the two extra members is this not just simply lies to claim that they will be acting independently ?

steddyeddy

Pugsly wrote: »

So the latest is Kenny is claiming that the coalition members have been removed from the party whip and they are acting independently on the committee. He is also calling for Donnelly to rejoin the committee.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/taoiseach-appeals-to-stephen-donnelly-to-rejoin-banking-inquiry-30357867.html

Given his initial comments on his reasons for adding the two extra members is this not just simply lies to claim that they will be acting independently ?

Of course they are lies. A few days ago he wanted to control the terms of reference now he expects us to believe they have removed the party whip. I can't speak for any of you but I'm not a stupid person and I require a lot more than that.

Sand

Kenny has pretty much destroyed the credibility of the bank inquiry as others have said. No one is going to acknowledge it as anything more than a political witch hunt anymore.

And its difficult to see why. They could have packed that inquiry with wall to wall with Fianna Fail TDs and they wouldn't be able to avoid putting the lions share of the blame down to Fianna Fail and the Greens. It was their ill judged and rushed decision to put a limitless guarantee on the assets of a banking sector bigger than the entire Irish economy.

Kenny is confirming my own misgivings that I had about Fine Gael under his leadership. Essentially incompetent, tolerant of corruption and under performance, dismissive of dissent. He cant even understand what caused the poor outcomes in Irish governance over the past decades, let alone have any interest in or capability for solving them.

Stephen Donnelly on the other hand is very impressive - its a tough decision that he has made, but better to exit the inquiry and show it up for what it is than allow them to use the cover of his participation for the purposes of show. Donnelly is demonstrating why we need more Independants in the Dail next time out. A junior TD in an established party would never have had the courage or principle to do that.

@Good loser

What are you talking about? We have a perfectly nomal political democracy working well here. All that's wrong with it ( if anything) is the intimidation/bullying generated by the electorate on the TDs. These run hither and thither trying to placate an electorate of wasters. Signs on more and more of that electorate is voting Independent. We get the Govt we deserve.

I wanted to respond to this as soon as I read it, but I decided to pause and come back to it later. I still cant quite articulate what I think of the above viewpoint, other than to say that to me it represents all that's wrong in Irish politics and governance. I really hope I've misunderstood and you were lampooning the view you expressed, but I doubt it.

The people have lost the confidence of the government; the government has decided to dissolve the people, and to appoint another one.
Bertolt Brecht

Sand

One other thing, Kenny's contempt for the Senate shows up the pipedreams of the Retain/Reform the Senate guys for what they are, and demonstrates the current value of the Senate when it comes to participating in government.

hatrickpatrick

The fact that the decision not to apply the whip is being regarded as somehow extraordinary shows just how screwed we really are IMO. Allowing TDs to vote with their own minds shouldn't be a rare or stupendous event.

Riskymove

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The fact that the decision not to apply the whip is being regarded as somehow extraordinary shows just how screwed we really are IMO.

it's as if the inquiry will be some great matter of personal conscience!! The whip would matter very little in this case

steddyeddy

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The fact that the decision not to apply the whip is being regarded as somehow extraordinary shows just how screwed we really are IMO. Allowing TDs to vote with their own minds shouldn't be a rare or stupendous event.

Indeed. "relax everyone I won't exert the regular complete control over this independent inquiry".

_Kaiser_

steddyeddy wrote: »

Indeed. "relax everyone I won't exert the regular complete control over this independent inquiry".

You can be sure, whip or no, that any FG/LAB members will still be expected to toe the party/government line.

It's an exercise in optics and damage control which is already futile as the (accurate IMO) perception is already out there that this inquiry is damaged from the start and will be little more than a show trial/witch-hunt

Kenny's arrogance and inability to open his mouth without putting both feet in it has struck again. Potentially the worst "leader" in the history of this State.

Busted Flat.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

You can be sure, whip or no, that any FG/LAB members will still be expected to toe the party/government line.

It's an exercise in optics and damage control which is already futile as the (accurate IMO) perception is already out there that this inquiry is damaged from the start and will be little more than a show trial/witch-hunt

Kenny's arrogance and inability to open his mouth without putting both feet in it has struck again. Potentially the worst "leader" in the history of this State.

The banking inquiry, seems a bit tame, what about the KKC Kenny's kangaroo court.

steddyeddy

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

You can be sure, whip or no, that any FG/LAB members will still be expected to toe the party/government line.

It's an exercise in optics and damage control which is already futile as the (accurate IMO) perception is already out there that this inquiry is damaged from the start and will be little more than a show trial/witch-hunt

Kenny's arrogance and inability to open his mouth without putting both feet in it has struck again. Potentially the worst "leader" in the history of this State.

Yea he sure is. Even if you agree completely with the application of the whip you have to wonder about Enda's intelligence in saying it out loud.

_Kaiser_

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yea he sure is. Even if you agree completely with the application of the whip you have to wonder about Enda's intelligence in saying it out loud.

As I've said previously, there's a reason why Kenny doesn't do debates or unscripted appearances much - and it's not JUST because he thinks he shouldn't have to.

Enda Kenny is FG's Bertie/Cowen but at least you knew what you were getting with those guys - not the outright lies and arrogance, massive use of spin and business as usual under the guise of New Politics that the current government have delivered.

Before he's done he'll have made FG as toxic as FF. You could argue that's already well under way by the rise in the Independent/SF vote

irishpancake

Sand wrote: »

Kenny has pretty much destroyed the credibility of the bank inquiry as others have said. No one is going to acknowledge it as anything more than a political witch hunt anymore.

And its difficult to see why. They could have packed that inquiry with wall to wall with Fianna Fail TDs and they wouldn't be able to avoid putting the lions share of the blame down to Fianna Fail and the Greens. It was their ill judged and rushed decision to put a limitless guarantee on the assets of a banking sector bigger than the entire Irish economy.

Kenny is confirming my own misgivings that I had about Fine Gael under his leadership. Essentially incompetent, tolerant of corruption and under performance, dismissive of dissent. He cant even understand what caused the poor outcomes in Irish governance over the past decades, let alone have any interest in or capability for solving them.

Stephen Donnelly on the other hand is very impressive - its a tough decision that he has made, but better to exit the inquiry and show it up for what it is than allow them to use the cover of his participation for the purposes of show. Donnelly is demonstrating why we need more Independants in the Dail next time out. A junior TD in an established party would never have had the courage or principle to do that.

@Good loser


I wanted to respond to this as soon as I read it, but I decided to pause and come back to it later. I still cant quite articulate what I think of the above viewpoint, other than to say that to me it represents all that's wrong in Irish politics and governance. I really hope I've misunderstood and you were lampooning the view you expressed, but I doubt it.

The people have lost the confidence of the government; the government has decided to dissolve the people, and to appoint another one.
Bertolt Brecht

@Sand: Sorry to pick on your excellent post, but the 2008 Blanket Guarantee was on all the covered banks liabilities.

i.e. Deposits and Bonds. Around €440 Billion, or Ireland's GDP x3

Awkward Badger

So Joe Higgins has been nominated by the technical group to take Donnelly's place on the committee.

I just don't understand why anyone would continue with this charade, least of all Higgins.

View

cerastes wrote: »

How do you mean, we can only vote for what is presented to us, change outside that is not tolerated, protest is looked down upon or shut down and ignored. We are reliant on whats being offered, and before someone says, why doesnt someone present themselves as a candidate, its just not that straight forward.

At the end of the day, it IS that straight forward.

People in a a democracy have actual choices about who they elect and who is prepared to stand for election.

If the electorate either vote for "colourful" politicians (as we frequently do) and/or opt out of the politician system en masse so the only people/parties who appear on the ballot are the "colourful" ones, the electorate will suffer the consequences of their actions and inactions.

It is the electorate's responsibility to make the democratic system work for them. There is NO ONE out there who will step in and wave a magic wand to alleviate us of that responsibility.

Even if someone external had that authority, why should they exercise it if the electorate aren't actively trying to engage in and alter the system?

_Kaiser_

View wrote: »

At the end of the day, it IS that straight forward.

People in a a democracy have actual choices about who they elect and who is prepared to stand for election.

If the electorate either vote for "colourful" politicians (as we frequently do) and/or opt out of the politician system en masse so the only people/parties who appear on the ballot are the "colourful" ones, the electorate will suffer the consequences of their actions and inactions.

It is the electorate's responsibility to make the democratic system work for them. There is NO ONE out there who will step in and wave a magic wand to alleviate us of that responsibility.

Even if someone external had that authority, why should they exercise it if the electorate aren't actively trying to engage in and alter the system?

You're missing his (perfectly valid) point I think

We effectively are a 2-party state where the decision comes down to the lesser of two evils. You criticise the candidates outside that as "colourful" (and I can't disagree with that in regards a lot of them) but who else is there? To have any real chance you need to tie on to the FF/FG mast and be bound by their "values" and whip.

This country may back parties like SF in newspaper polls or local elections, but come the Big Day there's not a chance that they'll have a real chance - thanks to Civil War politics, and an inability of the Irish electorate to just "get over it" as the citizens up North have (and who would have a lot more to complain about than we ever did!), forgetting of course the origins of ALL of our main parties.

Now I personally don't agree with a lot of what SF has to say, but as he said, anything different simply isn't tolerated in Ireland - it's discredited, belittled and ignored by our biased media to where the possibility of real change gets lumped in with the "colourful" aspects you mentioned.

I do know that flipping back n forth between FF & FG will achieve nothing though.

View

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

We effectively are a 2-party state where the decision comes down to the lesser of two evils.

First, if you look at our political parties and compare them in EU political party/"philosophy"terms, we have political parties representing all shades of politics from Hard Left through to but not including Hard Right (it being a welcome absence to my mind). So we most definitely do have a choice.

Second, as we use PR, we are not forced into the either/or choice that prevails under FPTP, so we can all safely vote for the "fringe-ist" party we like and know that PR means our vote won't be wasted as it would under other voting systems.

Third, that means if we are a "2 party state", that is because voters choose to vote for them. They don't have to, they choose to do so. They could, let's say, choose to vote en masse to give the Green Party an overall majority, they do not choose to do so.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

You criticise the candidates outside that as "colourful" (and I can't disagree with that in regards a lot of them) but who else is there?

Actually I include all the political spectrum within that description as it depends on the individual candidate more than the party or philosophy they represent.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

To have any real chance you need to tie on to the FF/FG mast and be bound by their "values" and whip.

That depends on the choice of the electorate. It is their choice and their responsibly for the result.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

This country may back parties like SF in newspaper polls or local elections, but come the Big Day there's not a chance that they'll have a real chance - thanks to Civil War politics, and an inability of the Irish electorate to just "get over it" as the citizens up North have (and who would have a lot more to complain about than we ever did!), forgetting of course the origins of ALL of our main parties.

This is a joke I hope.

NI most certainly hasn't gotten over it. They are just as bogged down as ever. it is still the same sectarian head count of old.

Just look where SF is concentrating its efforts at wooing the voters. It isn't Ballymena they are targetting, it is Ballymun.

Phoebas

Pugsly wrote: »

I just don't understand why anyone would continue with this charade, least of all Higgins.

He couldn't turn down a chance to pontificate on tv.

The_Captain

Pugsly wrote: »

So Joe Higgins has been nominated by the technical group to take Donnelly's place on the committee.

I just don't understand why anyone would continue with this charade, least of all Higgins.

I would think it's because he's outspoken and experienced enough to not be taken for a ride, and knows he can easily have media interviews/TV appearances to blast the inquiry if they try to whitewash anything

hatrickpatrick

Riskymove wrote: »

it's as if the inquiry will be some great matter of personal conscience!! The whip would matter very little in this case

It would though if it would prevent any scrutiny of the current governmet's actions and kowtowing to the ECB on exposing the letter allegedly bullying us into a bailout and so on and so forth.

Don't get me wrong, I blame FF era politicians, regulators and bankers 100% for the actual banking crisis and amn't trying to hijack that, but the actions of this government in perpetuating a potential cover up should absolutely definitely not be off limits to this enquiry, they should be scrutinised and examined - and you can bet that with a government majority that probably won't happen - whip or no whip. This is why a commission of investigation is the better way to go about this.

petronius

Enda destorys any trust and faith you can have in Irish democracy by his antics over the Banking Inquiry