Industrial Electrical - Registered Contractor

Seanieke

Just a quick one.. can anyone show me where it says you have to be a Registered Contractor to get the ESB to connect a Insustrial 3 Phase Supply.

Funny as it sounds I cant find it written anywhere and was saying it to one of the lads from Lepardstown today.

Any documentation I can find all relates to Domestic. Such as here All Domestic Certs

Thanks

2011

My understanding is that the new legislation only applies to domestic installations at the moment. That is because this is where most of the breaches of regulations occurred.

.G.

2011 wrote: »

My understanding is that the new legislation only applies to domestic installations at the moment. That is because this is where most of the nixers occured.

Fixed that for you:D

Seanieke

So if I want the ESB to connect a 3 Phase meter..... I don't legally have to be registered?

But if I want a Single Phase Supply I have to jump through the hoops??

beanie10

To get ESB to connect you will need a cert. Without being registered you will not be able to buy a book of certs. Unless to pay for RECI or ECCSA to test the installation for you, but I am nearly sure they will not test industrial installations.
If you are not a REC what way does insurance work for the installation?

2011

superg wrote: »

Fixed that for you:D

Nobody denies that there have been an incredible amount of nixers carried out over the years.

However if you do not recognise that compliance standards with the ETCI National Rules for Electrical Installations has been severalty "lacking" you are deluding yourself.

Seanieke wrote: »

So if I want the ESB to connect a 3 Phase meter..... I don't legally have to be registered?

But if I want a Single Phase Supply I have to jump through the hoops??

Assuming that you are not a registered electrical contractor:
Why don't you try to get a new 3 phase supply installed and let us know how you get on?

If you do mange it I will bet that the installation will be fully compliant with the regulations.

Seanieke

I got it done today. New 4x16 SWA terminated into 3 Phase meter by ESB & sealed. The ESB concluded that it doesn't state I have to be registered... I was just asking if someone had spotted otherwise elsewhere.

beanie10

Did you not have to give a cert?

Seanieke

No, just €180 on bill for the associated MPRN

2011

Well that is a new one.
I did it in the past, I had a new connection installed by the ESB despite the fact that I was not a registered electrical contractor (at the time).
However even then (about 1995) I had to have a completion certificate.
It would seem incredible to me that they would have removed the requirement for a completion certificate.
This is completely different from being a REC.

If true it sounds like a clerical error.

beanie10

So let me get this right? You got a new 3 phase supply installed without a cert and for just a couple of hundred €???

Seanieke

Not a new 3 Phase Supply, it was removal of ESB Seal, removal of old cable from meter, termination of new tails and new ESB Seal... €180 is a flat rate for that job. As for Cert, you will see it is listed under domestic

All I am really stating is it's a big loophole. I'm with the ECSSA so all this isn't about Certs, the books are in the office.

2011

Back in the day when I was a REC I could not get the ESB to do anything unless I had a certificate for it.
That was long before the recent legislation was even thought of.

This story sounds a tad suspect to me.

beanie10

Oh right so basically you upgraded the tails?
Sounds right, there is no need for a cert in this circumstance as installation already existed.

2011

Seanieke wrote: »

Not a new 3 Phase Supply, it was removal of ESB Seal, removal of old cable from meter, termination of new tails and new ESB Seal... €180 is a flat rate for that job

So as you did not provide a completion certificate the ESB have had to taken responsibility for your work?

That was very nice of them (and completely out of character) to stick their neck out like that.

You could have connected phases together for all they would have known.

Seanieke

I have the seal & signature, so yeah I guess so!

beanie10

The ESB temporarily disconnected supply so upgrade works can be carried out. As long as installation is not disconnected for more than 6 months ESB will reconnect without a cert.

2011

Seanieke wrote: »

I have the seal & signature, so yeah I guess so!

Ok I see this bit now:

Seanieke wrote: »

I'm with the ECSSA so all this isn't about Certs, the books are in the office.

As a you are REC and you were just changing the tails it is believable.
From your earlier posts I assumed you were not a REC (see post #6) .

What is the "loop hole" that you refer to?

.G.

2011 wrote: »

Nobody denies that there have been an incredible amount of nixers carried out over the years.

However if you do not recognise that compliance standards with the ETCI National Rules for Electrical Installations has been severalty "lacking" you are deluding yourself.

It was just a joke but since you commented,you're deluding yourself if you think this new legislation will do anything to improve compliance with the wiring regs since REC's work is self certified. But you knew that already.

Seanieke

2011 wrote: »

What is the "loop hole" that you refer to?

Loop Hole may not have been the right words, But it's strange they didn't seek a cert. IMO there's alot more to go wrong with 3 phase, and I've always been asked for a Cert on single phase domestic

2011

superg wrote: »

It was just a joke but since you commented,you're deluding yourself if you think this new legislation will do anything to improve compliance with the wiring regs since REC's work is self certified. But you knew that already.

I don't think that it will solve the issues with non-compliance of regulations overnight.

However I do think it will help for the following reasons:

1) Due to the fact that the customer can face prosecution as well as the person carrying out the work some people will be deterred from employing non-RECs.

2) The publicity surrounding this has encouraged many not to use those that are not qualified electricians to do electrical work in their homes. Whatever chance there is of an electrician being an REC there is no chance of a painter / plumber / carpenter being one

3) In the past inspectors from RECI could (and did) "play God" by deciding to turn a blind eye to non-compliance with regulations. If they try this now they can be taken to task by CER. I think that this will make inspectors enforce the rules more stringently now that there is a increased likelihood of consequences.

4) There is now a procedure to report those that are not registered.

5) There have been some prosecutions already. This has scared a lot of people.

6) Plenty of RECs are making a living from testing electrical installations at the moment especially homes that form part of the rental market. This highlights non-compliance with the regulations to landlords. Landlords want insured RECs that issue receipts to carry out electrical work on their properties.

7) There is a lot of support from electricians that work for domestic RECs. Why? Because the nixer industry (frequently the unemployed) has contributed to a downward pressure on their wages and RECs going out of business.

No delusion there

2011

Seanieke wrote: »

Loop Hole may not have been the right words, But it's strange they didn't seek a cert. IMO there's alot more to go wrong with 3 phase, and I've always been asked for a Cert on single phase domestic

I think that it was an oversight.
Technically you should have carried out an insulation resistance test and earth fault loop impedance test and documented same.

In theory the cable could have a short / insulation resistance issue due to a manufacturing problem or a nail through the cable.

.G.

2011 wrote: »

I don't think that it will solve the issues with non-compliance of regulations overnight.

However I do think it will help for the following reasons:

1) Due to the fact that the customer can face prosecution as well as the person carrying out the work some people will be deterred from employing non-RECs.

2) The publicity surrounding this has encouraged many not to use those that are not qualified electricians to do electrical work in their homes. Whatever chance there is of an electrician being an REC there is no chance of a painter / plumber / carpenter being one

3) In the past inspectors from RECI could (and did) "play God" by deciding to turn a blind eye to non-compliance with regulations. If they try this now they can be taken to task by CER. I think that this will make inspectors enforce the rules more stringently now that there is a increased likelihood of consequences.

4) There is now a procedure to repot those that are not registered.

5) There have been some prosecutions already. This has scared a lot of people.

6) Plenty of RECs are making a living from testing electrical installations at the moment especially homes that form part of the rental market. This highlights non-compliance with the regulations to landlords. Landlords want insured RECs that issue receipts to carry out electrical work on their properties.

7) There is a lot of support from electricians that work for domestic RECs. Why? Because the nixer industry (frequently the unemployed) has contributed to a downward pressure on their wages and RECs going out of business.

No delusion there

Most of your points relate to non RECs, mine was regarding RECs. Being registered does not automatically equal being good at your job. As long as they are self certifying standards will continue to crawl upwards. They also get to hand pick the one job a year their inspector can inspect, no random inspections like there should be either . It is good that people can report bad workmanship, how often it will happen and how quickly that will increase standards is anyone's guess. Poor workmanship is not automatically dangerous workmanship. I agree with point 6 as alot of our work recently has been this sort of stuff. The legislation is what it is but if it was designed to improve standards I don't believe it will do it anywhere near as effectively as measures I've mentioned. It will however keep work away from the nixer market which I believe was it's primary focus.

No delusion here either, just a different opinion

2011

superg wrote: »

Most of your points relate to non RECs

.....because this is precisely who the this legislation is aimed at.

Being registered does not automatically equal being good at your job.

Granted, but coming under more scrutiny and the prospect of more serious consequences for ignoring regulations tends to focus the mind

As long as they are self certifying standards will continue to crawl upwards.

I agree, I have never been a fan of self certification.
But it is better than no certification and as you recognise the standard are going in the right direction (albeit too slowly).

They also get to hand pick the one job a year their inspector can inspect, no random inspections like there should be either

Again I agree, but at least we have a more educated public, who are more likely to lodge a complaint when they suspect that work is not up to scratch. In addition the inspectors are being forced to be more diligent.

No delusion here either, just a different opinion

Not all of it is that different.

tomdempsey200

sounds like an oversight

I'd be very surprised under normal circumstances you can upgrade and reconnect tails without a cert

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

.


7) There is a lot of support from electricians that work for domestic RECs. Why? Because the nixer industry (frequently the unemployed) has contributed to a downward pressure on their wages and RECs going out of business.

Yea, but the exact same electricians will of course support it when they themselves are out if work and can't pay the bills. They are not supporting it simply because they agree with it.

No delusion there

Its purely revenue driven. Nothing to do with the most breaches of rules being in domestic. Its simply because that's where most untapped revenue potential for the state lies. It seems a house is a great source of tax these days.

They say a handyman can fit sockets etc, yet qualified electricians cant remove a DB cover. That alone tells most us its purely revenue driven, (apart from the delusional).

2011

Bruthal wrote: »

Yea, but the exact same electricians will of course support it when they themselves are out if work and can't pay the bills. They are not supporting it simply because they agree with it.

Yes this is most likely correct, but not really relevant.

As you acknowledge it has a level of support from some electricians within the industry which is my point.
This results in increased reporting of non-RECs and a heightened level of awareness of the law regarding this in the general public which in turn exerts more pressure on RECs to produce quality work.

Its purely revenue driven. Nothing to do with the most breaches of rules being in domestic.

Many take this view.
Whether this is the primary aim of the legislation and breaches or the rules are a very poor second could be argued until the cows come home and either way is not relevant (in terms of compliance of ET101).
However even if it is only a "side effect" of legislation that is designed purely to generate more revenue for the government to waste it has to help with the enforcement of rules to some extent.

They say a handyman can fit sockets etc, yet qualified electricians cant remove a DB cover.

Only qualified electricians can remove the cover they just need to have insurance, calibrated test equipment, to document their work, certify it, be subjected to inspections and be registered. RECs also need to have a qualified tester as part of the team. Whereas those that are not qualified electricians can't even get registered so they can never legally work on a distribution board. Remember for many people their house is the largest single investment that they will ever make.
Is it not reasonable that there should be some sort of law preventing electricians that have no insurance, or test equipment, etc. to work on it?

Insurance is key nowadays. Just because someone is an REC does not mean that the work that they carry out is done to a reasonable standard, but it does mean that the work is insured, which to many is far more important. There is also a body to report the REC to (ECSSA or RECI) and a body to report an inspector to (CER). Personally I think that this is a good thing.

Insurance companies are driving testing and recertification of existing premises. This testing is frequently carried out by RECs that did not wire the installation in the first place, so it is their interest to find issues. This new legislation means that many of the issues found during testing can only be resolved by an REC. How does this not help push standards up?

tomdempsey200

do you have to be a spark now to get registered?

they've prob tightened it up

back in the day ECSSA had many handymen and plumbers as members

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

Only qualified electricians can remove the cover they just need to have insurance, calibrated test equipment, to document their work, certify it, be subjected to inspections and be registered.

A child can remove a cover so, going by that reasoning, with reference to my saying a qualified electrician can't remove a dB cover. I think you understand fully what I meant.

2011

Bruthal wrote: »

A child can remove a cover so, going by that reasoning

No, because a child can not even register as an apprentice never mind be a qualified electrician and an REC.

with reference to my saying a qualified electrician can't remove a dB cover. I think you understand fully what I meant.

Yes, and I think you know what I mean about the importance of insurance.

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

No, because a child can not even register as an apprentice never mind be a qualified electrician and an REC.


Yes, and I think you know what I mean about the importance of insurance.

Does the handyman need insurance to swap a socket?

Also, nothing about Insurance was referred to by myself.

Anyway, I've had enough of this stuff. I post what I think, with reference to real life, not what boards status or other posters expect. Maybe you do yourself (post what you think). But i doubt you will call a rec to tighten a connection in your own DB, or family members.

Superg had the opinion that this was all targeted at domestic, because its where the untaxed work was happening. I agree with that.

Have a good day.

tomdempsey200

could you be prosecuted for working on your own DB?

Bruthal

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

could you be prosecuted for working on your own DB?

Not likely. Its probably a bit dangerous though, with all them volts ready to escape.

2011

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

could you be prosecuted for working on your own DB?

Theoretically yes, in reality it is only likely to happen if the work carried out resulted in/contributed to a fatality and/or insurance claim.

2011

Bruthal wrote: »

Does the handyman need insurance to swap a socket?

According to the new legislation the person just needs to be "competent" to do minor works such as this.

But i doubt you will call a rec to tighten a connection in your own DB, or family members.

I agree with your point.
I can’t imagine many qualified electricians paying for an REC to do electrical work on their own home.
However this does not change what the law is.

Are you suggesting that there should be some sort of exception in the law for electricans, thier friends and relations?

Superg had the opinion that this was all targeted at domestic, because its where the untaxed work was happening. I agree with that.

Many would agree and I agree that this may well be the case.
But that does not mean that the new legislation will not have a positive effect on overall compliance with the regulations for the reasons outlined in my earlier post.


Being a qualified electrician does not somehow give a person to any sort of “right” to be able work on any distribution board.
The same applies to driving a car, just because a person is qualified to drive a car (by having a full license) does not give them a right by law to drive any car.
They must also be insured and have permission from the owner of the vehicle to drive it.
The various rules of the road to not diminish or impact on the validity of a driving qualification just as the new legislation do not somehow make a qualified electrician less qualified.
There will always be those that get away with driving without insurance just as there will always be non-RECs that rewire houses.

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

Being a qualified electrician does not somehow give a person to any sort of “right” to be able work on any distribution board.

No one ever said it did. So, again you miss the points made, or else pretend to at times. I cant, and never could, walk into a random house, and work on a fuseboard.

Also, I or others never said anything that suggests its now legal to work on DBs.

I believe it started out suggesting that domestic works are targeted for revenue reasons. No one is arguing anything about what is or is not law.

I think the whole electrical game is a farce. A mugs game in the absolute extreme. In honesty, I think its a horrible occupation. RECs are welcome to it all.

The same applies to driving a car, just because a person is qualified to drive a car (by having a full license) does not give them a right by law to drive any car.

Honestly, you are having a laugh now. Whats next, DB tax? they may as well bring it in. Then you can tell us cars have it too.

They must also be insured and have permission from the owner of the vehicle to drive it.

So we need permission, insurance, and qualification. Still not enough for the qualified person to change an MCB though. Yet its ok for the milkman to change a few sockets. Our legislators state this. And so we must align like mindless subjects without a thought, and for some of us, advocate it like its perfect common sense.

The various rules of the road to not diminish or impact on the validity of a driving qualification just as the new legislation do not somehow make a qualified electrician less qualified.

It certainly seems to bring the layman closer the the qualified person.

Would you really think it easier and safer for a diy man to swap a socket, than it is for a qualified person to tighten a loose connection in a DB?

Bruthal

Anyway I said earlier I'm out. So again, have a good day there.

2011

Bruthal wrote: »

I believe it started out suggesting that domestic works are targeted for revenue reasons.

Nobody has disagreed with this.

I just made the point that it should have a positive impact on standards even if that was not the primary aim of the legislation.
I also making the point that some of the work done in donestic installations over the last few years has been appalling.

Suggestions that the new legislation somehow makes qualified electricians somehow unqualified has been a common theam in other similar threads. Hence my analogy with driving.

Sir Arthur Daley

Should they do away with restricted works altogether and only an REC can do any type of electrical work in the domestic sector?

tomdempsey200

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Should they do away with restricted works altogether and only an REC can do any type of electrical work in the domestic sector?

no

Stoner

The way I see its mainly a line in the sand where revenue want additional income to kick in.

I'd also fully support the concept that if only RECs perform these works that standards should increase that's not a personal slight against any particular electrician it's just a part of a concept that I think has merit.

If all electrical works carried out were completed by registered electrical contractors it might help to improve standards, certainly I can't see it having a negative effect on standards. I believe there are plenty of very good unregistered electricians out there working away.
However this band of workers that the legislation targets also contains unqualified people, handymen and people chancing their arm with electrical installations, for this reason i think it's a good idea.

Being a registered electrical contractor does not guarantee that your work is to a higher standard.

Not being a registered electrical contractor does not that mean that you are unable or incapable of carrying out high quality electrical works, it just means that you can not get untaxed payment for your efforts.

Being an electrician does not entitle somebody to work outside tax bracket IMHO.
The trade, like many other trades and professions in this country is just part of the job, skilled or unskilled we all have to pay tax. That's the government line on it. I think that if were all told that it was the main driver that we wouldn't have an issue with it. Its possibly just that a secondary reason is being pushed as a main reason, but I still think that the second reason stands on its own too.

However not being allowed to work in your own home on your own electrical installation would be a difficult pill to swallow for a trades-person, and in my opinion it will largely be ignored, but it is still something that holds water from a quality point of view, its just when it is applied to a competent electrician that it seems unfair, but they had to somehow improve the position of gaining more revenue and improving quality.

At the end of the day in my personal opinion I don't ever see a day where somebody, being a qualified electrician would be prosecuted for a replacing something in their fuse board in their own home.
Also I don't see a day where an electrician will not carry out electrical works in his or her own house on his or her own installation because they are not registered. In my opinion it's a pedantic argument to suggest otherwise.

2011

+1

I am not totally convinced that revenue is the primary objective, but I accept that it is possible.
However I agree 100% with the rest of the above post.