another tax increase

zielarz

Now I know what the PSO levy on my electricity bill is about. It's going to increase by 50% this year despite falling prices. I find it shocking that they keep raising taxes.

The levy is going up despite a fall of up to 10pc in the wholesale cost of generating electricity. A warm winter means there is spare gas capacity, which has seen costs fall.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/50pc-hike-in-levy-on-electricity-bills-is-a-sneaky-tax-30340906.html

MayoSalmon

Another reason why wind energy is a complete scam in the current format.

aliveandkicking

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Another reason why wind energy is a complete scam in the current format.

I think it's the Peat burning electricity generation stations that are responsible for most of the PSO. Burning peat for electricity in 2014 is a national disgrace in my opinion.

MayoSalmon

aliveandkicking wrote: »

I think it's the Peat burning electricity generation stations that are responsible for most of the PSO. Burning peat for electricity in 2014 is a national disgrace in my opinion.

Unfortunately it is the only indigenous fuel we have so when they put the doomsday scenarios together they feel they have to subsidy the crap out of them.

Personally think if the Arabs stop the oil and Russians stop the gas we are all in the sh1tter anyways and a few peat power stations won't make a difference.

comongethappy

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Unfortunately it is the only indigenous fuel we have so when they put the doomsday scenarios together they feel they have to subsidy the crap out of them.

The wind is not imported.

I think,if they want to raise that levy it should be conditional on ending peat burning subsidies.

Make them think more seriously about low carbon alternatives.

323

Lets just call it what it is. Another stealth tax.

Also another example of double taxation, first pay the levy(tax), then pay VAT on the tax.

MayoSalmon

comongethappy wrote: »

The wind is not imported.

I think,if they want to raise that levy it should be conditional on ending peat burning subsidies.

Make them think more seriously about low carbon alternatives.

Yes but it is not reliable. What happens when it doesn't blow?

Lights out

Peanut2011

zielarz wrote: »

Now I know what the PSO levy on my electricity bill is about. It's going to increase by 50% this year despite falling prices. I find it shocking that they keep raising taxes.



http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/50pc-hike-in-levy-on-electricity-bills-is-a-sneaky-tax-30340906.html

Pat Rabbite getting back at people for voting against Labour in local elections!

Head The Wall

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Yes but it is not reliable. What happens when it doesn't blow?

Lights out

The 6% of the countries power requirements the peat stations supply won't power too much

aliveandkicking

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Unfortunately it is the only indigenous fuel we have so when they put the doomsday scenarios together they feel they have to subsidy the crap out of them.

Personally think if the Arabs stop the oil and Russians stop the gas we are all in the sh1tter anyways and a few peat power stations won't make a difference.

Is the natural gas from Corrib and Kinsale not counted as indigenous fuel? I admit not knowing the technicalities involved but in my quite uneducated opinion any peat plants should be mothballed. In the unlikely event of a doomsday scenario then and only then would they be useful.

MayoSalmon

Head The Wall wrote: »

The 6% of the countries power requirements the peat stations supply won't power too much

I agree I do, but you must also keep in mind that isn't the max output potential from peat, also and that's a big also harvesting peat creates lots of jobs unlike Wind.

Apparently Bord na Mona have roughly 1,000 permanent staff employed.

MayoSalmon

aliveandkicking wrote: »

Is the natural gas from Corrib and Kinsale not counted as indigenous fuel? I admit not knowing the technicalities involved but in my quite uneducated opinion any peat plants should be mothballed. In the unlikely event of a doomsday scenario then and only then would they be useful.

Native gas contribution is small plus the Corrib field will only last 20 odd years.

The crazy thing is the price of the Gas coming out of Corrib will match the price of imported British gas less any transportation charges which are minuscule at best. The whole Corrib project has proven to be a complete failure and waste of money and time and that's even before any gas has flowed.

**Kinsale gas has long been tapped dry**

AlekSmart

323 wrote: »

Lets just call it what it is. Another stealth tax.

Also another example of double taxation, first pay the levy(tax), then pay VAT on the tax.

I've no real issue with their levy...BUT I have a BIG Issue with being taken for a ride by being charged a Value Added Tax on something which does'nt actually ADD anything to the value of what I've purchased.

Accepting the validity of imposing a Tax upon a Levy,is a slippery slope along which I will not slide without squealing like a stuck-pig.

The Supreme Court has been forced to sit and adjudicate upon far less important stuff !!!! :mad:

comongethappy

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Yes but it is not reliable. What happens when it doesn't blow?

Lights out

Who said become 100% reliable on wind?

MayoSalmon

comongethappy wrote: »

Who said become 100% reliable on wind?

Nobody...but you need to have security of supply. Other renewables not even worth talking about at this stage.

chopper6

Nuclear?

Seems to work in lot of countries.

MayoSalmon

chopper6 wrote: »

Nuclear?

Seems to work in lot of countries.

Lesser of two "fossil fuel" evils really.

Also there is a particularly large problem of nuclear waste.

Cookie_Monster

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Nobody...but you need to have security of supply. Other renewables not even worth talking about at this stage.

other renewables like hydro? 15% of ESBs generating capacity currently.

MayoSalmon

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

other renewables like hydro? 15% of ESBs generating capacity currently.

Yes and not nearly enough, there's not exactly a hoover dam in the waiting to be plugged

323

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Native gas contribution is small plus the Corrib field will only last 20 odd years.

Yes, but with the export infrastructure to the shore is in place, we will see other satellite developments around Corrib which will extend this

MayoSalmon wrote: »

The crazy thing is the price of the Gas coming out of Corrib will match the price of imported British gas less any transportation charges which are minuscule at best. The whole Corrib project has proven to be a complete failure and waste of money and time and that's even before any gas has flowed.

**Kinsale gas has long been tapped dry**

What is crazy about this? Its like any other commodity, why would any business want to sell any product, which is in demand for below market price?

MayoSalmon

323 wrote: »

Yes, but with the export infrastructure to the shore is in place, we will see other satellite developments around Corrib which will extend this



What is crazy about this? Its like any other commodity, why would any business want to sell any product, which is in demand for below market price?

Export infrastructure to what shore? None of this gas will be exported. Other satellite developments...sorry but that's pure speculation.

It is of no real benefit to the Irish State that's whats crazy. It certainly does not justify the €2.5+ Billion spend. We would of been much better off importing instead of the short lived security of supply benefit.

Good loser

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Export infrastructure to what shore? None of this gas will be exported. Other satellite developments...sorry but that's pure speculation.

It is of no real benefit to the Irish State that's whats crazy. It certainly does not justify the €2.5+ Billion spend. We would of been much better off importing instead of the short lived security of supply benefit.

20 Years is 20 years. That's called a generation. Whaddya mean short-lived?

It was Shell etc spent the money. The Govt will get VAT, Coprn Tax, tax on wages etc from the operation.

MayoSalmon

Good loser wrote: »

20 Years is 20 years. That's called a generation. Whaddya mean short-lived?

It was Shell etc spent the money. The Govt will get VAT, Coprn Tax, tax on wages etc from the operation.

Short lived means short lived...Are we any better off after Kinsale and Seven heads? If anything I would say we are even more reliant on imported fuel than before.

Nody

MayoSalmon wrote: »

I agree I do, but you must also keep in mind that isn't the max output potential from peat, also and that's a big also harvesting peat creates lots of jobs unlike Wind.

Apparently Bord na Mona have roughly 1,000 permanent staff employed.

So does putting people to bicycle with a generator attached to it but that does not mean it's a good way to spend money or cost efficient...

MayoSalmon

Nody wrote: »

So does putting people to bicycle with a generator attached to it but that does not mean it's a good way to spend money or cost efficient...

Not really like for like but I get what your saying. There's the dilemma Wind energy needs to overcome. At the start of all this communities were promised hundreds of jobs from the Turbines etc...anything but that, has happened in reality.

zielarz

I don't understand one thing. Why taxpayer needs to subsidize it? Aren't they making a profit burning peat?

comongethappy

zielarz wrote: »

I don't understand one thing. Why taxpayer needs to subsidize it? Aren't they making a profit burning peat?

No.
Its a very inefficient fuel to use.
As well as being the as dirty as coal environmentally.

Godge

MayoSalmon wrote: »

I agree I do, but you must also keep in mind that isn't the max output potential from peat, also and that's a big also harvesting peat creates lots of jobs unlike Wind.

Apparently Bord na Mona have roughly 1,000 permanent staff employed.

Peat is the most polluting carbon fuel in the world. The amount of peat left in Ireland to burn is small.

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Native gas contribution is small plus the Corrib field will only last 20 odd years.

The crazy thing is the price of the Gas coming out of Corrib will match the price of imported British gas less any transportation charges which are minuscule at best. The whole Corrib project has proven to be a complete failure and waste of money and time and that's even before any gas has flowed.

**Kinsale gas has long been tapped dry**

The Corrib field will provide more electricity than the remaining peat at a much lesser cost to the environment.

hfallada

Godge wrote: »

Peat is the most polluting carbon fuel in the world. The amount of peat left in Ireland to burn is small.





The Corrib field will provide more electricity than the remaining peat at a much lesser cost to the environment.

Have you ever seen the tar oil fields of Canada? That is easily the direst fuel in the world. You have to destroy ancient forests, than process the extremely dirty oil, which produces tons of CO2 even before its burnt.

Natural gas produces half the CO2 of coal, but still produces CO2. But with the amount of fracking in the US, coal is so cheap, that we should probably be using it. Although its very dirty to burn, its cheap and more efficient than peat

Godge

hfallada wrote: »

Have you ever seen the tar oil fields of Canada? That is easily the direst fuel in the world. You have to destroy ancient forests, than process the extremely dirty oil, which produces tons of CO2 even before its burnt.

Natural gas produces half the CO2 of coal, but still produces CO2. But with the amount of fracking in the US, coal is so cheap, that we should probably be using it. Although its very dirty to burn, its cheap and more efficient than peat

The facts don't agree with you.

http://www.seai.ie/Archive1/Files_Misc/IEABioenergyAgreementTask38CaseStudy.pdf

"Peat is the least carbon efficient fossil fuel producing more CO2 emissions per energy unit than oil, natural gas or coal"

MayoSalmon

Godge wrote: »

Peat is the most polluting carbon fuel in the world. The amount of peat left in Ireland to burn is small.





The Corrib field will provide more electricity than the remaining peat at a much lesser cost to the environment.

If there was so little peat remaining that you suggest they would not be subsidizing the peat burning stations.

MayoSalmon

comongethappy wrote: »

No.
Its a very inefficient fuel to use.
As well as being the as dirty as coal environmentally.

That has nothing to do with why we pay a subsidy to peat.

Godge

MayoSalmon wrote: »

If there was so little peat remaining that you suggest they would not be subsidizing the peat burning stations.

http://www.ipcc.ie/a-to-z-peatlands/peatland-action-plan/extent-utilisation-of-irish-peatlands/

Again a few facts would be helpful.

If you look at the table, the amount of peat remaining ranges from 10% to 28% depending on the type. A significant portion of this is either in special conservation areas or cannot be efficiently extracted. The amount remaining to be exploited is probably more than 10% but less than 20%.

To use an analogy from another energy sector, we have passed peak peat.

MayoSalmon

Godge wrote: »

http://www.ipcc.ie/a-to-z-peatlands/peatland-action-plan/extent-utilisation-of-irish-peatlands/

Again a few facts would be helpful.

If you look at the table, the amount of peat remaining ranges from 10% to 28% depending on the type. A significant portion of this is either in special conservation areas or cannot be efficiently extracted. The amount remaining to be exploited is probably more than 10% but less than 20%.

To use an analogy from another energy sector, we have passed peak peat.

So why are they subsidizing it if there is so little?

Godge

MayoSalmon wrote: »

So why are they subsidizing it if there is so little?

Pandering to rural interests and lobby groups, why else?

MayoSalmon

Godge wrote: »

Pandering to rural interests and lobby groups, why else?

Nonsense, it is subsidized because it is classed as an indigenous fuel and for security of supply.

aliveandkicking

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Nonsense, it is subsidized because it is classed as an indigenous fuel and for security of supply.

If it's about security of supply why are we depleting our reserves of peat now when we don't actually need to instead of keeping it in reserve if a doomsday scenario ever arrives? if the Russians switch off the gas and the arabs stop pumping the oil well then peat becomes a hell of a lot more important to us. It may only be 6% of our needs but that 6% would hopefully power our critical infrastructure such as hospitals. Why are we burning it for power now when we may well need it in the future? Burning it now is actually risking our future energy security.

MayoSalmon

aliveandkicking wrote: »

If it's about security of supply why are we depleting our reserves of peat now when we don't actually need to instead of keeping it in reserve if a doomsday scenario ever arrives? if the Russians switch off the gas and the arabs stop pumping the oil well then peat becomes a hell of a lot more important to us. It may only be 6% of our needs but that 6% would hopefully power our critical infrastructure such as hospitals. Why are we burning it for power now when we may well need it in the future? Burning it now is actually risking our future energy security.

I agree, I think its a travesty that we are still burning peat in 2014 buttttt there are many other issues at play here which I have already mentioned.

Security of supply is the main logic behind it however I think the employment implications far exceed this when the numbers and policy is crunched.

Bord na Mona employs 1,000+ people and it is certainly not in the governments interest to unemploy these people which it would have to do if peat came offline.