What would you do?

LegacyUser

I rang a relative of mine this evening. She's elderly but fully with it. The Tuam situation came into conversation and she told me it brought back a lot of memories. She proceeded to tell me a horrific story. I guess I can't go into details here without the mods allowing me. It involves the drugging of a child relative leading to death. That is about all I can say. This would have happened a long time ago and when questions were asked my grandparents were harrassed and bullied, yet two nurses told my grandmother they would be witnesses for the family. When it came to the crunch my grandparents decided not to proceed as they would be victimised and bullied out of the town but it remained a shadow over the family.

I was given huge detail on this and no idea now what to do. Do I just keep stump and treat it as a family story or bring it to somebody's attention. When I asked her she said there's no point doing anything, anybody involved is dead now.

dudara

It sounds like a potential crime. Go to the Gardaí and ask their advice.

Tokyo

From what you say you have reason to believe that a child died due to drugging - there's no statute of limitations on that. Contact the Gardaí and let them decide whether it's worth following up on or not.

Azwaldo55

Go to the guards and report it. Also its worth contacting some local and national newspapers and tell them what you know so if the state takes no action and you get targeted by locals for what you know some journalists will break the story. Cover yourself from all angles. Be careful because there were and are still powerful and dangerous people behind the scenes who don't want this stuff coming out and who want to silence whistle blowers. In this country there is still omerta and informers are boycotted and ostracized. This is why this carry on was kept quiet for decades. If you want to pursue this be prepared to go all the way and be prepared for a backlash. There is no going back once the secret is out in the open.

ivytwine

I would second the idea of contacting a journalist if you would like it covered from all angles, also a solicitor.

There would be no statute of limitations on murder, but if everyone involved is dead by now I can see where your relative is coming from. I think it might be worth sitting down with them and having a long conversation with this. Do they feel they want it to be acknowledged? I would not be surprised if there is a fullblown inquiry soon enough- you can see how you want to proceed with this then.

It would be no harm I think to contact a guard/solicitor that you may be friendly with, approach him or her informally and see what their view is on how to proceed.

You have my sympathies. Your family has been another victim of a rotten state and church and hope you get some form of solace and peace x

Tokyo

It might be worth noting before people get carried away that nowhere in the OP's post does it mention church, state, whistleblowers, informers and so on. Sensationalising such as this without proof is only detrimental to the OP's case....

Rubberchikken

While i sympatise with your relative, i would heed what she said.
Its so long ago and people involved are probably dead

My thinking would be whats to be honestly gained by the issue in Tuam and elsewhere, for that matter, being investigated at great expense in a country where a large percentage of people are in need of help right now.

tinkerbell

OP, go to the gardai and tell them. Newstalk have run a report this morning on children in these homes being used to test vaccines on.

Neyite

notsurewhattodo wrote: »

I rang a relative of mine this evening. She's elderly but fully with it. The Tuam situation came into conversation and she told me it brought back a lot of memories. She proceeded to tell me a horrific story. I guess I can't go into details here without the mods allowing me. It involves the drugging of a child relative leading to death. That is about all I can say. This would have happened a long time ago and when questions were asked my grandparents were harrassed and bullied, yet two nurses told my grandmother they would be witnesses for the family. When it came to the crunch my grandparents decided not to proceed as they would be victimised and bullied out of the town but it remained a shadow over the family.

I was given huge detail on this and no idea now what to do. Do I just keep stump and treat it as a family story or bring it to somebody's attention. When I asked her she said there's no point doing anything, anybody involved is dead now.

To me, it would not matter that the perpetrators were dead. I'd still want the Gardai to have a record or open an investigation, even if it leads nowhere- the horror of a child being drugged and dying as a result would make me want to have the truth out there.

If nothing else, the Gardai can get an official statement from your elderly relative.

Czarcasm

notsurewhattodo wrote: »

I rang a relative of mine this evening. She's elderly but fully with it. The Tuam situation came into conversation and she told me it brought back a lot of memories. She proceeded to tell me a horrific story. I guess I can't go into details here without the mods allowing me. It involves the drugging of a child relative leading to death. That is about all I can say. This would have happened a long time ago and when questions were asked my grandparents were harrassed and bullied, yet two nurses told my grandmother they would be witnesses for the family. When it came to the crunch my grandparents decided not to proceed as they would be victimised and bullied out of the town but it remained a shadow over the family.

I was given huge detail on this and no idea now what to do. Do I just keep stump and treat it as a family story or bring it to somebody's attention. When I asked her she said there's no point doing anything, anybody involved is dead now.

OP I would advise that you respect your relative's opinion on this.

ash23

It's a tough one. I think I'd speak to her again and ask her if she wishes to report it.

While it might be a case that the people involved are now dead and nobody will every be prosecuted, it could also be something that happened to a lot of other children in the care of the same place and their parents and families might never have known or spoken of it.

We learn from the past and even if it's just to ensure that nothing like that ever happens again, I think these kind of things should be reported and investigated.

Ultimately though, you need the relatives support in order to go to the guards.
But if nobody ever did anything about mistreatment or things like this, nothing would have ever changed. It takes a brave person to stand up and say "this is wrong" to get people to take notice and get what are perceived as normal practices changed.

I think for the sake of other children and their families, this should be reported. Justice might never be done (in terms of a prison sentence) but that doesn't mean it should be let slide either.

Emme

I think this shouldn't go unreported but the person themselves should do the reporting if possible. The attitude "there's no point in doing anything" is a typically Irish attitude which has allowed atrocities of all sorts to continue and go unreported. If the people concerned are too upset to speak for themselves they should be present if somebody else speaks for them.

I would talk to the Gardai and get good legal advice if it comes to that. It may not be a good idea to approach the media as it might upset the people concerned.

Whatever happened should be spoken about to somebody in confidence and then take it from there. There are too many horrific secrets buried in this country.

Mother and baby homes and lunatic asylums were convenient dumping grounds for innocent people in the not too distant past. People who had done nothing wrong, were victims in many cases and more often than not were perfectly sane.

Big Bag of Chips

You could report it, but you only have 3rd,maybe 4th hand information. So even though you would do right to report it, it would need your family member to cooperate with any investigation that might be followed up or carried out. And she may not agree to that.

Talk to her again. Tell her that even though nothing direct will probably come from it, it will help further investigations and add "numbers" to the cases.

She might be afraid, embarrassed etc, but with the right approach she might come forward with her story.

myshirt

I think you do need to go to the Gardai.

The process will be managed very sensitively, and taken up with due care. Your thoughts are the first thing in rising above the natural fear that this brings. It's obvious you care.

It is very difficult in confronting the past, and no doubt about the strength and courage required. Dealing with this can consume your life, and certainly it can wear you down. Often that is a component in life remaining as it is, and the past remaining untouched.

But note this, the Gardai and process you come involved in will act to ensure the impact on your life is limited and that you are supported, while they work with determination on the case.

I would encourage you to come forward, and wish you the very best.

ivytwine

Apologies Mike, I got a bit over-emotive. Of course we have no idea what actually happened, and it's up to the relative to pursue it. The more I think about it I think approaching a solicitor a decent guard informally may the best route to pursue.

LegacyUser

Reading this rings alarm bells with me as I've been through something similar and I wish we could all deal with the situation again today so we could do everything differently.

I'm cautious about even sharing the following as it's still very painful but I think you need to step back for a moment and think clearly.

My aunt had a baby out of wedlock when she was very young. This is a lot more recent than any of the Tuam cases or such. My aunt was sent away to another town where the nuns became involved, the baby was taken away, apparently given up for adoption though not legally. It was all top secret to protect the family from 'shame' [her parents were not happy].

The important thing to remember is that even 20 or 25 years ago, Ireland was a very different place.

My aunt blocked it out and moved on with her life. She told no-one. Nobody outside of the immediate family knew. She married, had children, lived a very happy life. She chose not to tell her husband or children about the baby for reasons which were personal to her. It was a very bad time, she didn't want to relive it. Right or wrong, this was her personal choice.

My mother [aunt's sibling] and some other family members began to put pressure on her a few years ago to investigate when there was a high profile similar case in the media. My aunt hadn't wanted to give the baby up but was forced. She wanted to make contact, to know the baby was safe, but wasn't allowed. There were many heartbreaking details and our family reminded her of the injustices caused.

She felt very strongly about not having the case re-opened but my mother and her siblings pushed, they believed they were doing the right thing for her. Justice.

The ball began to roll. She told her husband who was very upset for a long time, but she was adamant her children not know until they were older.

The case was reported to a local senior Garda. My aunt was insistent that it be kept absolutely secret. They just wanted it on record.

Time passed.

One day while my aunt was out for a walk, she met the Garda's wife who mentioned it casually to her, wishing her luck pursuing the matter..

My mother and other aunts soon experienced similar. But everybody tried to play it down and convinced themselves it wouldn't go further.

We live in a small rural area where everyone knows everyone.

And while people were 'supportive', there was an air of judgement about their tone which bothered all of us.

There were many stresses involving solicitors, soon a local man who works for a major newspaper in another city called to her house, curious if she wanted to go public to speed up the case, which horrified her.

The last time I spoke to my aunt, she called me extremely upset [close to having a panic attack] as she found in her internet history that her teenage child had learned the name of the adopted child [no idea how] and was searching the name online.

She had not yet told her children although the family continually placed pressure on her to do so, fearing it would get back to them through some ignorant, nosy neighbour.

That night, my aunt made multiple highly strung phone calls, accusing my mother and other family members of telling her teenage child the one thing she wanted to handle herself at the right time.

[It later emerged the teen had learned the details through friends at school]

A couple of hours after the above phonecalls, my aunt had a catastrophic brain hemorrhage and died soon after.

She left behind two young children and a teenager.

Her doctor [a family friend] later revealed she had visited a couple of days earlier and was extremely upset and stressed, and her blood pressure [always normal previously] was through the roof.

She advised her to step back from the case but our entire family kept pushing it, seeking "justice".

There was nothing more about the case, and it's all been brushed under the carpet now.

Personally, I wish it had stayed there. Nothing was gained. The younger children are motherless and still don't know anything about the adopted sibling.

All of the nuns and personnel involved were dead, a couple were senile in Homes.

And after all of that, the illegally adopted family member refused contact, didn't want to get involved in any way and does not know their mother has died.

I learned a valuable lesson.

Digging up the past is very difficult. Life is very short and we are generally better moving on as peacefully as we can. There is nothing fun about dealing with solicitors, reliving and relaying horrible distressing details over and over, having media hound your landline looking for an exclusive, having 'supportive' neighbours gossiping and whispering, and that's before any big case is officially opened.

Are you willing to possibly assign 2 or 3 years of your life to pursuing this [if it went high profile, court, hearings, etc]?

What are you hoping to gain, a frontpage headline in a seedy tabloid that is replaced by something bigger tomorrow? A lump sum payout? A pat on the back and recognition? My experience is that no level of acknowledgement automatically heals the past. Perhaps pursuing some level of private counselling is a better option, learning how to accept it and move forward peacefully.

In your case, there isn't even a live child to establish a relationship with [that was the main drive for our family - to fix the past]. You can't bring someone back from the dead.
But you CAN establish a memorial or plaque for someone you wish to have remembered without investigations and solicitors. Perhaps planting a tree somewhere special, or erecting some kind of memorial, could bring peace to your relative?

In our family, we were dealing with someone young and healthy and the stress and pressure was still too much. You are dealing with someone elderly and possibly frail who likely doesn't need this kind of attention at her age.

If the woman wants to leave it in the past, do so.

You are from a different generation where lots of things are handled differently, and while you want to seek justice, unless those who were present at the time wish to pursue with your help, you need to forget about it.

scallywaggles

I think you should respect your relatives position on it. At the very least before you go talking to the Gardai or solicitors have the decency to talk to them and tell them what you are planning to do. Sometimes people just want to tell their own personal story from the past to someone and possibly chat about it but it does not mean they want it broadcast and followed up.

Lou.m

notsurewhattodo wrote: »

I rang a relative of mine this evening. She's elderly but fully with it. The Tuam situation came into conversation and she told me it brought back a lot of memories. She proceeded to tell me a horrific story. I guess I can't go into details here without the mods allowing me. It involves the drugging of a child relative leading to death. That is about all I can say. This would have happened a long time ago and when questions were asked my grandparents were harrassed and bullied, yet two nurses told my grandmother they would be witnesses for the family. When it came to the crunch my grandparents decided not to proceed as they would be victimised and bullied out of the town but it remained a shadow over the family.

I was given huge detail on this and no idea now what to do. Do I just keep stump and treat it as a family story or bring it to somebody's attention. When I asked her she said there's no point doing anything, anybody involved is dead now.

What does SHE want to do? And what do you feel you want to do? What do you feel is right?

If she is elderly this could hit her hard.

Obviously what you do is up to you. I think it is a tough decision.

It will maybe get tough. And she is elderly.

But perhaps you feel the memory of the child has the right to justice.


I don't know OP.

I think I would do something. I would talk with family and relatives.

But I don't know if we should tell you what to do in such a personal issue.

Get legal advice and counseling though.

amen

OP I think going to the Gardai, involving a solicitor etc is the wrong approach.

When I asked her she said there's no point doing anything, anybody involved is dead now

Your elderly relative said not to do anything. You should respect her wishes. She may have told you so someone else knew or maybe she just wanted to tell her story.

This will sound harsh but from your post it appears that this happened a long time ago, the child is dead (most likely no autopsy), the potential suspects are dead, most likely no evidence, notes gone etc.

What exactly do you expect anyone to do ?

LegacyUser

OP here.

I have decided to honor my relative's wishes for the time being, while she is alive. Given her current health and a lot of consideration on the matter and that she was 'confiding' in me, I think it's for the best. It's something that can possibly be pursued later.
In the meantime I will get all the facts.