Luas fine/appeal - I tagged on!

SATSUMA

Help!

So i topped up my luas card by €20, tagged on and got on the luas. Next thing i see the inspectors as we approach the stop. I have nothing to fear or so i thought! Im then told i did not tag on but he could see i topped up by €20. He would not accept a word of it, fined me. I gave my name and address.

I was mortified as people probably thought i was lying. I now have to appeal in writing. More hassle. Or pay the €45 fine.

Has anyone had this experience? If they did appeal were they believed? Its really put me off using a leap card in future.

Had i not paid i woukd have got off on seeing the i spectors and not gone to the bother of putting on €20!!!!!!! So mad.

Any advice?

Thanks

AndrewJD

Definitely appeal it anyway. I haven't had this problem personally but people I know who have even been in the wrong when caught who are regular leap card users got a bit of leniency on appeal. You will presumably have CCTV footage on your side (if they save that sort of thing) and the fact you obviously topped up your card prior to being caught. I'm surprised the inspector fined you, I've seen them let people away with much less evidence surrounding their excuse. Good luck!

Hilly Bill

Ring Leap Card and ask them for the proof that you tagged on at the time you say you did.

Trebor176

Or alternatively, wait a day or two and log on to Leap Card ( assuming you have an account). There will be a listing, which will show how much you topped up by and when, and also when you tagged on/off. If you have the proof, print it and send it off with your appeal.

SureYWouldntYa

Are you sure you tagged on correctly ? I've often had an error come up when tagging on or off

SATSUMA

Op here. Thanks for replies.

I checked my card usage and there is no record of me tagging on. It was either broken (unlikely) or i made a genuine mistake and thought i had legitimately tagged on. A €45 mistake

Trebor176

I was reluctant to get a Leap Card or any card for the bus too for a good while, and always used cash in case the ticket I was using wouldn't work for whatever reason. But, I got the Leap Card in the end, and never really had issues.

There was only one incident where, similar to the OP, I topped up at a Luas stop, there was a tram there, and I went for it. I was in a rush to get it that I suddenly realised on board I had forgotten to tag on. So, at the next stop, I hopped off, tagged on, got a Metro and back on the same tram Bear in mind, it was a genuine mistake on my part, and at that hour of the morning, there weren't any inspectors. Still, it's a good thing I copped my error. These things do happen.

SATSUMA

Ive sent in an appeal i'll keep you updated...

SteM

SATSUMA wrote: »

Ive sent in an appeal i'll keep you updated...

But why appeal? You said yourself you made a mistake and didn't tag on.

SATSUMA

To summarise what i said; I tagged on, but as there is no record of it either the machine was broken or I made a legitimate error and did not tag on correctly. I don't think it's unreasonable to appeal on the grounds that there may be cctv of me tagging on, a record of daily usage, a record of me topping up my €20 and the possibilty that there was a problem with the machine- which can be confirmed by them very easily. If it was my error so be it, but I certainly don't think I should just accept it without asking questions and having them answered. There could be a perfectly reasonable explanation.

SteM

SATSUMA wrote: »

To summarise what i said; I tagged on, but as there is no record of it either the machine was broken or I made a legitimate error and did not tag on correctly. I don't think it's unreasonable to appeal on the grounds that there may be cctv of me tagging on, a record of daily usage, a record of me topping up my €20 and the possibilty that there was a problem with the machine- which can be confirmed by them very easily. If it was my error so be it, but I certainly don't think I should just accept it without asking questions and having them answered. There could be a perfectly reasonable explanation.

No you didn't tag on because there is no record of you tagging on. You may have thought you did or tried to.

What is the CCTV footage going to show? That you put your hand up to a machine, it might show that there was some sort of card in your hand. It could be any card. Just because you are saying it's a Leap card (obviously you are an honest person, not everyone is) doesn’t mean that it was a Leap card.

Obviously you're annoyed by the fine but I don't think it's up to whoever runs the Luas to prove anything other than the machine was working at the time and other people tagged on at the same time as you.

SATSUMA

Obviously you're annoyed by the fine but I don't think it's up to whoever runs the Luas to prove anything other than the machine was working at the time and other people tagged on at the same time as you.[/QUOTE]

That is what I am saying.... if that is the situation so be it!

Here's hoping you never find yourself in the same situation!

I think this thread has run it's course....

over and out!

No Pants

How does a Luas user know/confirm that their attempt to tag on was successful? I'm an infrequent Luas user.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

SteM wrote: »

No you didn't tag on because there is no record of you tagging on. You may have thought you did or tried to.

What is the CCTV footage going to show? That you put your hand up to a machine, it might show that there was some sort of card in your hand. It could be any card. Just because you are saying it's a Leap card (obviously you are an honest person, not everyone is) doesn’t mean that it was a Leap card.

Obviously you're annoyed by the fine but I don't think it's up to whoever runs the Luas to prove anything other than the machine was working at the time and other people tagged on at the same time as you.

I'd appeal too. There's nothing wrong with saying "sorry lads, I made a mistake, I obviously thought I was tagged on"

They may quash it, they may not. Only one way to find out. Best of luck OP.

cython

No Pants wrote: »

How does a Luas user know/confirm that their attempt to tag on was successful? I'm an infrequent Luas user.

Probably an even less frequent user here (and never since leap came in!), but if it's anything like the train usage, the validators should emit a chime after you tag on/off, and display a message (probably including the remaining balance).

AndrewJD

cython wrote: »

Probably an even less frequent user here (and never since leap came in!), but if it's anything like the train usage, the validators should emit a chime after you tag on/off, and display a message (probably including the remaining balance).

They chime, display a green light and the text on the screen indicates how much was deducted from your card, and the total on the card after that transaction. I completely buy though that in the rush for a tram pulling in if it was a bad read or a faulty machine you might not notice it.

I'd also say to SteM that I don't believe fines should be directed at honest regular users who make a once off mistake. No Luas don't have to do anything, but why begrudge them if they do?

clopow

Just had the same problem today. I tagged on and when i got off, I was bombarded by the brutes they hire to scare ticket holders. Firstly, not sure the guy even knew how to use the device, then he went on to lecture me, even though I explained that I was certain I had tagged on as I heard the beep.

This isn't the first time that a lunch time Luas ride from Dundrum has had this problem. Another ticket checker informed me that Dundrum does on occasion(as any busy stop)has malfunctions. That guy just told me to tag on and off at my stop. This particular individual clearly couldn't care less and was probably just looking to fill a quota as the ticket guy behind him helped someone else to tag on and off with their card. Honestly, at this point I think the problem lies more with the people they hire, than the machines. Those things are built on human error.

No Pants

cython wrote: »

Probably an even less frequent user here (and never since leap came in!), but if it's anything like the train usage, the validators should emit a chime after you tag on/off, and display a message (probably including the remaining balance).

Is the message easily read since it's at quite a low level?

nibtrix

clopow wrote: »

That guy just told me to tag on and off at my stop.

just to say you can't tag on and off at the same stop within a set amount of time (10 mins I think). So if you tagged on at the stop you got off then you're charged the max journey fee from that station.

ongarboy

I find some validators don't beep and in bright sunlight (like today) the monitor is not always easily visible to see that you have tagged off successfully. I've ended up paying the default full €4.50 once or twice where I inadvertently tagged off incorrectly.

clopow

nibtrix wrote: »

just to say you can't tag on and off at the same stop within a set amount of time (10 mins I think). So if you tagged on at the stop you got off then you're charged the max journey fee from that station.

I'd rather be charged the full fare than 45 quid. That's just ridiculous. I clearly had 9.30 on my card and had used it on my way to work.
Like the other poster said, in this sunlight it's near impossible to see the screens. Going off the beep is the only way to know you've tagged on. Guess that isn't working so well though.

Dravokivich

nibtrix wrote: »

just to say you can't tag on and off at the same stop within a set amount of time (10 mins I think). So if you tagged on at the stop you got off then you're charged the max journey fee from that station.

Its 2 minutes. Used to then have upto 10 mins to tag off again to cancell the fare from your origin, if the service has been disrupted. I think thats been increased though.

Julius Seizure

Dravokivich wrote: »

Its 2 minutes. Used to then have upto 10 mins to tag off again to cancell the fare from your origin, if the service has been disrupted. I think thats been increased though.

So if I touch a reader twice within two minutes at the same stop the charge is reversed?

Dravokivich

Julius Seizure wrote: »

So if I touch a reader twice within two minutes at the same stop the charge is reversed?

Not within 2 minutes, after 2 minutes, upto 10 mins+ of when you tagged on.

Casula

SATSUMA wrote: »

Help!

So i topped up my luas card by €20, tagged on and got on the luas. Next thing i see the inspectors as we approach the stop. I have nothing to fear or so i thought! Im then told i did not tag on but he could see i topped up by €20. He would not accept a word of it, fined me. I gave my name and address.

I was mortified as people probably thought i was lying. I now have to appeal in writing. More hassle. Or pay the €45 fine.

Has anyone had this experience? If they did appeal were they believed? Its really put me off using a leap card in future.

Had i not paid i woukd have got off on seeing the i spectors and not gone to the bother of putting on €20!!!!!!! So mad.

Any advice?

Thanks

Had a very similar experience today. I heard the electronic ping and assumed I'd tagged on but according to the machine that apparently was not the case. The sense of injustice was pretty intense at the time. The last time I was as angry was after being hit by a car. Was your appeal successful?

beauf

If you tag then tag again you should get an error the second time.

SATSUMA

Casula wrote: »

Had a very similar experience today. I heard the electronic ping and assumed I'd tagged on but according to the machine that apparently was not the case. The sense of injustice was pretty intense at the time. The last time I was as angry was after being hit by a car. Was your appeal successful?

Casula,

Appeal unsuccessful, they actually told me they didn't even read it. "If the machine says you didn't tag on then you didn't tag on end of story..."

devnull

beauf wrote: »

If you tag then tag again you should get an error the second time.

Unless it's more than 5 minutes later, for which it will do a cancel tag off.

beauf

True. Can catch you out. On your return journey you remember you didn't tag off. So on returning to the platform, you tag off.

Then realise you can't tag back on when the Luas arrives 2 mins later.

You have to wait to tag on before you can board the Luas. In fairness they are so frequent its not that big a deal. But then you are only doing a short hop say at lunchtime its a bit awkward.

So don't forget to tag off.

road_high

Meanwhile every junkie in the city can hop on/off no questions asked...

beauf

Its a step to far for me, just to get free on the luas.....

RainyDay

road_high wrote: »

Meanwhile every junkie in the city can hop on/off no questions asked...

Many drug abusers will have a disability travel pass.

RainyDay

devnull wrote: »

Unless it's more than 5 minutes later, for which it will do a cancel tag off.

Can you explain this more please?

Captain Chaos

RainyDay wrote: »

Can you explain this more please?

If you tag on at a stop it will not you tag off at the same stop until at least 5 minutes have passed. It's to stop people from accidently double tagging but it's a pain if you tag on and then change your mind as you have to wait around for 5 minutes.

Neon_Lights

Having worked in the transport arena in I would appeal to the NTA asking for transaction readings from that particular machine. There have been instances where the reader skews the transaction.

devnull

Captain Chaos wrote: »

If you tag on at a stop it will not you tag off at the same stop until at least 5 minutes have passed. It's to stop people from accidently double tagging but it's a pain if you tag on and then change your mind as you have to wait around for 5 minutes.

The reason to stop people using the card more than once every 5 mins is to stop people from passing the card to someone else to operate the barriers.

By far the best use of the cancel function is for where your tag on and go to the platform and find the DART is not running or is cancelled since the train did not turn up and nobody knows why, so you don't have to pay again for the bus that probably just left in the time you were trying to find out what the hell is going on.

WomanSkirtFan8

SATSUMA wrote: »

Help!

So i topped up my luas card by €20, tagged on and got on the luas. Next thing i see the inspectors as we approach the stop. I have nothing to fear or so i thought! Im then told i did not tag on but he could see i topped up by €20. He would not accept a word of it, fined me. I gave my name and address.

I was mortified as people probably thought i was lying. I now have to appeal in writing. More hassle. Or pay the €45 fine.

Has anyone had this experience? If they did appeal were they believed? Its really put me off using a leap card in future.

Had i not paid i woukd have got off on seeing the i spectors and not gone to the bother of putting on €20!!!!!!! So mad.

Any advice?

Thanks

yes. I would DEFFINATELY appeal that fine. That doesn't sound right at all. You've nothing to worry about if you followed the correct procedure. Don't let it put you off using leap cards in the future. They're great things to have. I know because I've used them myself in the past and never had a problem with them.:)

RainyDay

Captain Chaos wrote: »

If you tag on at a stop it will not you tag off at the same stop until at least 5 minutes have passed. It's to stop people from accidently double tagging but it's a pain if you tag on and then change your mind as you have to wait around for 5 minutes.

Thanks for the clarification.

Neon_Lights wrote: »

Having worked in the transport arena in I would appeal to the NTA asking for transaction readings from that particular machine. There have been instances where the reader skews the transaction.

You could possibly submit a request for a copy of all data relating to your Leap card under the Data Protection Acts. I'm not sure how long they retain the data though.

devnull

At what stop was this?

Was it Busaras by any chance?