Primary PGCE in the Uk, the facts?

Teacher2787

Hi everybody. I am looking for some help/guidance. I hope this is the right forum. I did some searching but can't find the exact answers I am looking for.
Before anybody tries to advise me about the lack of jobs in primary teaching etc, I am well aware of the current employment opportunities. This is the career I want.

I have been accepted on a primary PGCE in England starting in September 2014. I left my job in the healthcare industry in May 2013 to spend 6 weeks in 2 primary schools in the UK volunteering. I really enjoyed this experience and it encouraged me to continue with my aspiration of becoming a primary school teacher.

I choose the UK route because of my lack of Irish and I also have friends near the university I will be attending.
I would like to return to Ireland in the medium term to teach here.
I did ordinary level irish in the leaving cert.

My questions are:
After I complete my Post grad in the Uk when can I return to teach in Ireland?
Do I need to complete my newly qualified teacher year in the UK before returning?
And finally to have the qualification fully recognised in Ireland what irish exams will I have to take, will I have to sit leaving cert higher level irish first followed by another exam? Please give me as much detail as possible on this.

Thanks in advance for taking the time to help/advise

blue star

hello


I did the exact same. I did the pgce in London and you have to stay the following year to complete your probation year. yOu can then return and complete an irish exam called scg or ocg..its a hard course!! I have just completed it. I have loads of contacts in schools over there if you need any help.

what college are you going to?

Teacher2787

blue star wrote: »

hello


I did the exact same. I did the pgce in London and you have to stay the following year to complete your probation year. yOu can then return and complete an irish exam called scg or ocg..its a hard course!! I have just completed it. I have loads of contacts in schools over there if you need any help.

what college are you going to?

Thanks for the reply and offer. I am doing the PGCE in the university of Winchester, starting September this year.
I have heard the Irish is a tough course alright, will I have to complete leaving cert honours irish first???? I only did ordinary level irish about 10 years ago.
Thanks guys

An Bradán Feasa

AFAIK, anyone who does a postgraduate teaching qualification abroad will have to make sure that their course has an equivalent amount of credits as the new Professional Master of Education (PME) which is the new and only postgraduate teaching qualification in Ireland, commencing this September 2014. A one-year postgrad teaching course in England would not have the same amount of credits as the new PME, therefore from this September onwards, it will not be recognised here as a teaching qualification. Anyone who has commenced their courses abroad previous to this coming academic year should be fine though.

Teacher2787

An Bradán Feasa wrote: »

AFAIK, anyone who does a postgraduate teaching qualification abroad will have to make sure that their course has an equivalent amount of credits as the new Professional Master of Education (PME) which is the new and only postgraduate teaching qualification in Ireland, commencing this September 2014. A one-year postgrad teaching course in England would not have the same amount of credits as the new PME, therefore from this September onwards, it will not be recognised here as a teaching qualification. Anyone who has commenced their courses abroad previous to this coming academic year should be fine though.

Thanks for the info, even if it is not what I wanted to hear. If I completed my NQT year also in the UK(which is what I have planned to do anyway), would the qualification be fully recognised in Ireland then, (I know I still will be lacking the irish side of things).
Thanks

An Bradán Feasa

Teacher2787 wrote: »

Thanks for the info, even if it is not what I wanted to hear. If I completed my NQT year also in the UK(which is what I have planned to do anyway), would the qualification be fully recognised in Ireland then, (I know I still will be lacking the irish side of things).
Thanks

No, as the NQT year is just probation and nothing to do with the college training course.

blue star

you will have to find a college that has the same level as over here...some pgce are the same but there longer than 1 year

Teacher2787

An Bradán Feasa wrote: »

No, as the NQT year is just probation and nothing to do with the college training course.

Where can I have this detail confirmed? Who can clarify it for me 100%. The whole idea of completing the PGCE course in the UK was to return to Ireland eventually and teach here.
Judging on the information you have given me, completing the PGCE in the UK is a waste of time if I ever want to teach in Ireland??

blue star wrote: »

you will have to find a college that has the same level as over here...some pgce are the same but there longer than 1 year

Again where can I confirm that if the 1 year PGCE course I am signed up to do is recognised in Ireland? It's the one year full time primary PGCE in the university of Winchester.

I really want to know am I just wasting my time and a lot of money by completing the PGCE in the UK as I do plan on returning to Ireland at some stage. It's very disheartening news,

An Bradán Feasa

Teacher2787 wrote: »

Where can I have this detail confirmed? Who can clarify it for me 100%. The whole idea of completing the PGCE course in the UK was to return to Ireland eventually and teach here.
Judging on the information you have given me, completing the PGCE in the UK is a waste of time if I ever want to teach in Ireland??



Again where can I confirm that if the 1 year PGCE course I am signed up to do is recognised in Ireland? It's the one year full time primary PGCE in the university of Winchester.

I really want to know am I just wasting my time and a lot of money by completing the PGCE in the UK as I do plan on returning to Ireland at some stage. It's very disheartening news,

http://www.teachingcouncil.ie/teacher-education/initial-teacher-education-ite.191.html

If your PGCE is 120 credits it'll be fine. Any less and it won't be recognised. The new PME is 2 years full-time so if your PGCE is only one year it probably won't have sufficient credits.

An Bradán Feasa

Just to be clear, we're talking about 120 credits on the ECTS and not the CATS system.

http://www.winchester.ac.uk/Freedomofinformation/Publicdocuments/Documents/Academic%20Regs%20for%20Taught%20Programmes%202013-14.pdf

Have a look at this as well. Based on my reading, a PGCE is 120 CATS credits, but this only equates to 60 ECTS credits. Page 21 of the document I linked states that "The University equates one ECTS credit to two CATS credits."

Teacher2787

If your PGCE is 120 credits it'll be fine. Any less and it won't be recognised. The new PME is 2 years full-time so if your PGCE is only one year it probably won't have sufficient credits.[/QUOTE]

An Bradán Feasa wrote: »

Just to be clear, we're talking about 120 credits on the ECTS and not the CATS system.


Have a look at this as well. Based on my reading, a PGCE is 120 CATS credits, but this only equates to 60 ECTS credits. Page 21 of the document I linked states that "The University equates one ECTS credit to two CATS credits."

I can't quote the attachment as I'm a new user.

Thanks for taking all the time and effort to go into that detail for me.
I contacted the teaching council in Maynooth on Friday evening as I was getting more anxious, I gave them the details of the course in Winchester that I'm starting in September. They confirmed that if I complete my 'induction year', ie my first year teaching in the UK that then the course would be then recognised in Ireland.

I don't know how that would bring the course up to 120 credits but that is what i was told directly on Friday.
What do you think?

An Bradán Feasa

Did you mention anything to them about the credit situation? To be honest, I'd still be a bit weary. If at all possible, get this in writing (or by email) from the Teaching Council and make sure you can remember the name of the person who gave you this information over the phone. I'm just a bit sceptical about this, as it is a new requirement. Plenty of potential for misinformation, which in turn could cause you a lot of stress. To me, what they're saying to you doesn't add up.

Teacher2787

An Bradán Feasa wrote: »

Did you mention anything to them about the credit situation? To be honest, I'd still be a bit weary. If at all possible, get this in writing (or by email) from the Teaching Council and make sure you can remember the name of the person who gave you this information over the phone. I'm just a bit sceptical about this, as it is a new requirement. Plenty of potential for misinformation, which in turn could cause you a lot of stress. To me, what they're saying to you doesn't add up.

Hi. When I was on the phone to them on Friday I wasn't aware of the credit situation, so I didn't mention it. I informed them of the course, it's duration, location etc. The response I received after some waiting and deliberation was, if I completed the PGCE followed by my 'induction year' in the UK this would in turn have the PGCE recognised in Ireland.

I agree with you on the potential for misinformation.
I have sent a detailed email there this evening to the teaching council for a definitive answer. I included all the details on credits etc. I'll keep you posted.
Thanks again

Buggeroo

Hi Teacher2787,

Just came across this thread.

Considering doing something similar and just wondering did you hear anything back?

Thanks

Teacher2787

Here is the reply, I'm only quoting this to inform other prospective teachers of the new guidelines.

"A number of changes are currently taking place in the nature of initial teacher education in Ireland. One of these changes has seen the duration of postgraduate teacher education qualifications (primary and post-primary) extended to two years full time study carrying 120 ECTS Credits with effect from September, 2014. The extension of programmes is designed to accommodate a greater emphasis on school placement and a number of mandatory areas of study.



Details of the requirements are set out in the Council’s document Initial Teacher Education: Criteria and guidelines for Programme Providers which details, inter alia, the programme balance (pg. 11) and all mandatory elements (pg. 14) of newly extended teacher education programmes offered in Ireland. In order to ensure equivalence, these requirements must also be met by teachers qualified overseas and returning to Ireland to register with the Council. Further information on these requirements can be found on the Teaching Council’s website here.



The advice given to you previously indicated that once you complete a teacher education programme in the UK and complete a statutory Induction programme (usually one year) you can then apply for registration in Ireland, provided you are recognised under the terms of EU Directive 2005/36 (in the case of those qualified in England, this recognition will be confirmed by the National College for Teaching and Leadership (NCTL)).



Having secured this EU Directive status, the Teaching Council will assesses your qualifications with reference to the criteria and guidelines set out above. The assessment process is an in depth one which involves applicants submitting detailed course information. As teacher education programmes offered in Ireland have been extended and will carry 120 ECTS credits from this September, it is likely that there will be shortfalls identified when compared with a programme carrying 60 ECTS credits. In the case of primary teaching, the Irish Language Requirement is one obvious shortfall which will have to be addressed. Where shortfalls are identified, an applicant, who is recognised under EU Directive 2005/36, will be awarded conditional registration for a period of 3 years, during which time they will be expected to address the shortfalls identified. Methods for addressing shortfalls will be outlined to the applicant once their registration is finalised but you may wish to note that teachers holding Conditional Registration may take up teaching posts when addressing shortfalls. It is not possible to advise of shortfalls in advance of an assessment being carried out."



So basically I can go ahead and do the 1 year PGCE in the UK, followed by the induction year. Only then will an assessment be carried out against my qualification pinpointing any shortfalls where relevant. I was well aware of the Irish shortfall but I had plans to address this. I haven't replied to my email yet as I'm not sure what else to say.
It would be a right pain in the ass to complete the 1 year PGCE in the UK followed by induction year in the UK, then return to Ireland and be told something like, possibly you need to spend another year in uni or something. It's a right spanner in the works. Any thoughts?

An Bradán Feasa

It's a massive pity that the Teaching Council aren't clear about how to address shortfalls by way of credits for people in your situation. I'm sure as time progresses and as more people get onto them for this very problem, they'll have an answer. Unfortunately, this reeks of the Teaching Council making it up as they go along.

Your options are limited. You could take the course, complete it and work for three years in Ireland with no sure (as of yet) method of addressing the credit shortfalls, or you could turn down (or defer) the course, complete your LC Irish next year and hopefully after that successfully enrol on the PME course in Ireland and have no shortfalls to address, apart from probation - which is standard.

You have a difficult decision to make and I do not envy you. The very best of luck with whatever you decide. What's for you won't pass you.

Teacher2787

An Bradán Feasa wrote: »

It's a massive pity that the Teaching Council aren't clear about how to address shortfalls by way of credits for people in your situation. I'm sure as time progresses and as more people get onto them for this very problem, they'll have an answer. Unfortunately, this reeks of the Teaching Council making it up as they go along.

Your options are limited. You could take the course, complete it and work for three years in Ireland with no sure (as of yet) method of addressing the credit shortfalls, or you could turn down (or defer) the course, complete your LC Irish next year and hopefully after that successfully enrol on the PME course in Ireland and have no shortfalls to address, apart from probation - which is standard.

You have a difficult decision to make and I do not envy you. The very best of luck with whatever you decide. What's for you won't pass you.

Thanks for your honest input as ever, much appreciated.

mattdam0n

Hey Teacher2787,

Just wondering what you decided to do in the end? I am also thinking of heading over to the UK to complete a one year PGCE with the intention of eventually returning home to teach and would appreciate your advice.

Teacher2787

mattdam0n wrote: »

Hey Teacher2787,

Just wondering what you decided to do in the end? I am also thinking of heading over to the UK to complete a one year PGCE with the intention of eventually returning home to teach and would appreciate your advice.

Hi
I went ahead and started the course. I'm on my first placement already and really enjoying it.

blue star

i went over and completed the pgce and did my probation over in london. came back last august after staying the 2 years. did subbing work up unitl christmas last year and got a resource teaching job in january and im still in that full time job..i completed the scg irisg course last year. il be honest its very hard but doable. Im now fully qualifed within a year of me coming home. i can honestly say going to london was the best experience for me as i got my probation done and worked in a very challenging school where i gained excellent experience.

what college are you thinking of applying to??

mattdam0n

Teacher2787 wrote: »

Hi
I went ahead and started the course. I'm on my first placement already and really enjoying it.

Thanks for the reply. Which university are you studying at? Are you any clearer on what has to be done to make up the 'shortfall' in order to get qualified in Ireland?

mattdam0n

blue star wrote: »

i went over and completed the pgce and did my probation over in london. came back last august after staying the 2 years. did subbing work up unitl christmas last year and got a resource teaching job in january and im still in that full time job..i completed the scg irisg course last year. il be honest its very hard but doable. Im now fully qualifed within a year of me coming home. i can honestly say going to london was the best experience for me as i got my probation done and worked in a very challenging school where i gained excellent experience.

what college are you thinking of applying to??

I'm not sure really. I've heard strawberry hill in London is good. Where did you do yours?

blue star

mattdam0n wrote: »

I'm not sure really. I've heard strawberry hill in London is good. Where did you do yours?

I went to brunel university in west london..was excellent. but i had friends wh went to st marys and they said it was a very good course aswell.

i think they're much the same. brunel is ideal for going home..its very close to heathrow direct bus to the airport.

Jimmy Iovine

I'd avoid Strawberry Hill simply because it's well known and loads of people apply for it.

Look towards Manchester or Liverpool. Flights home are far cheaper than London. Can get four flights for the price of one in London.

ShamoBuc

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

I'd avoid Strawberry Hill simply because it's well known and loads of people apply for it.

Look towards Manchester or Liverpool. Flights home are far cheaper than London. Can get four flights for the price of one in London.

I went to StrawberryHill and couldn't recommend it highly enough. One of the advantages of going there is that it is well known, principals know how good it is.
Cost of flights is an issue - booking well in advance was a good option for me. The other places mentioned are probabaly just as good and you need to consider accommodation costs, flights, etc in your decision.

Teacher2787

mattdam0n wrote: »

Thanks for the reply. Which university are you studying at? Are you any clearer on what has to be done to make up the 'shortfall' in order to get qualified in Ireland?

i'm studying at the uni of Winchester,
Unfortunatley i'm not any clearer on the shortfall to return and teach in Ireland so it is a bit of risk.To be honest I don't think they know themselves yet, bit of a joke really!!

mattdam0n

Hi again Teacher2787,

How is the course coming along now? Are you still enjoying it?

Teacher2787

mattdam0n wrote: »

Hi again Teacher2787,

How is the course coming along now? Are you still enjoying it?

Hey, The course is going well, Almost at the half way point, first placement completed and passed, about to hand in the 2nd of 4 assignments.

Just to give you an idea, 15 of 142 people who started the course have either failed or left already, the work load is manageable but it is consistently busy, it depends how much effort you put it etc and what background you have come from/are used to, ie professionally

Shutuplaura

Quick question because I'm thinking of going down this route. What are the fees like and is there any assistance available?
When I graduated from college about 15 years ago it wasn't an issue if you wanted to study teaching in the UK so I put it on the long finger. Are you hit for a full 9k GBP per annum?