Empire's 301 'Greatest Films'

MakeEmLaugh

Empire, still the world's best selling film magazine, published a list of its readers' Top 301 films (billed as 'The 301 Greatest Movies of All Time'). It was a predictable affair, and it reminded me once again of the sheer ignorance too many filmgoers have of 'older' films.

The earliest film on the list was Fritz Lang's Metropolis (1927) and the most recent was The Grand Budapest Hotel (2014).

The whole list can be browsed here.

What is staggering is how few 'classic era' films made the list. Only 55 made before 1970 were there, with only 1 in the Top 25 (2001: A Space Odyssey at #22).

If one were to look at a pie chart of the results, it shows films made from 1970 onwards dwarf their older counterparts.

johnny_ultimate

Well a quick glance at that list gave me a good laugh. That's pretty much all the energy I feel comfortable expending on this topic.

krudler

There are some great films on it but some farcical choices, The Winter Soldier? Hunger Games? Iron Man 3? TRANFORMERS?! The Desolation of Smaug? come on now.

Lists like this are pointless anyway.

Birneybau

I used to like Empire but it's basically just p.r. led puff pieces these days.

e_e

Man of Steel higher than Andrei Rublev.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Even worse than IMDB's top 250.

e_e

krudler wrote: »

Lists like this are pointless anyway.

They're good if they bring up some genuinely influential and innovative films that people wouldn't have considered but it's not Empire's forte sadly.

Some good choices here and there but the list is just fanboy pandering nonsense really. :pac:

Yeti Beast

Don't see what the problem is? It's Joe and Jane Public's list, not Empire's (not that their's would be any more meaningful).

e_e

Yeti Beast wrote: »

Don't see what the problem is? It's Joe and Jane Public's list, not Empire's (not that their's would be any more meaningful).

Everyone and their mother knows the usual lists though and calling them "Greatest of all time" just seems very disingenuous too. Just overall seems so arbitrary to me.

krudler

e_e wrote: »

They're good if they bring up some genuinely influential and innovative films that people wouldn't have considered but it's not Empire's forte sadly.

Some good choices here and there but the list is just fanboy pandering nonsense really. :pac:

To be fair there are some genuine classics on there, but some of the choices are just ridiculous, 300? really? The Dark Knight (which I like) in the top 5? whut?

Tombo2001

I always think back to a BBC Radio 1 poll on the 100 greatest songs of all time, where Bros - When Will I Be Famous was number 1.

Bless them.

Anyway, polls like this are really only valid if they exclude movies from the past ten years.

Starscream25

Why the **** is point break doing in there

endacl

I remember reading a list of the world's greatest lists.

I was left feeling listless. Now I list towards not reading lists.

It's lazy journalism, and a cheap way to generate cut and paste content. Plus, 301 movies? That's a movie nearly every weeknight for a year! I like movies, but c'mon?!? Just to complete a list?

Yeti Beast

e_e wrote: »

Everyone and their mother knows the usual lists though and calling them "Greatest of all time" just seems very disingenuous too. Just overall seems so arbitrary to me.

Your earlier point was that it was Empire pandering to the fanboys. I'm just pointing out that it was the "fanboys" themselves who created the list, which naturally will make the list seem arbitrary (it is!).

Agree about Empire's choice of title though - "Your Favourite Movies of All Time" would have been a better choice.

FunLover18

The problem with these lists is the use of the word 'best'.

I, and I'd imagine everyone else, always votes for their favourite films regardless of quality. This is why such recent films make the list. This should clearly be called the our readers' 301 favourite films. Look at it that way and it's much more interesting and far less likely to piss people off.

e_e

Yeah I think it lends to the argument that Sight & Sound do far and away the best of these lists because they get to voters who are proven to know a good deal about film.

Might as well call this list "Here's 300 movies that random people like!"

krudler

Starscream25 wrote: »

Why the **** is point break doing in there

Should be higher!

krudler

FunLover18 wrote: »

The problem with these lists is the use of the word 'best'.

I, and I'd imagine everyone else, always votes for their favourite films regardless of quality. This is why such recent films make the list. This should clearly be called the our readers' 301 favourite films. Look at it that way and it's much more interesting and far less likely to piss people off.

Exactly, my favourite films arent necessarily the ones I'd consider the best movies ever.

shazzerman

Aw c'mon now, folks: who can deny that Prometheus is a better film than Bicycle Thieves? Sheeeesh...

Starscream25

Surely pans labyrinth and the naked gun should be on it.each to their own I guess.

Starscream25

Starscream25 wrote: »

Surely pans labyrinth and the naked gun should be on it.each to their own I guess.

Just seen pan on it.

FunLover18

krudler wrote: »

Exactly, my favourite films arent necessarily the ones I'd consider the best movies ever.

Totally agree, and on a similar note some of the best films out there I really don't like regardless of how good they are from an objective point of view.

My friends used to always laugh at me when I'd say "It's a good film but I didn't like it" or vice versa. But it makes perfect sense to me

shazzerman

Starscream25 wrote: »

Surely pans labyrinth and the naked gun should be on it.each to their own I guess.

Pan's Labyrinth is No. 50

johnny_ultimate

shazzerman wrote: »

Pan's Labyrinth is No. 50

Funnily enough it's also the first foreign language title on the list, which is an observation I will make while resisting the temptation for sarky commentary.

e_e

FunLover18 wrote: »

Totally agree, and on a similar note some of the best films out there I really don't like regardless of how good they are from an objective point of view.

My friends used to always laugh at me when I'd say "It's a good film but I didn't like it" or vice versa. But it makes perfect sense to me

I've never responded to films this way tbh. I don't think you can prove why a film is good/bad on objective terms either so all we have is our own subjective responses really. Of course there are films out there that the majority will love but it doesn't devalue anybody else having anything negative to say imo.

For example I don't think that Slumdog Millionaire is a good film on any level at all (on the other end loads hated The Tree of Life but I think it's the best film of the decade so far) despite what a tonne of people think, but others are entitled to feel the opposite so a discussion starts! Not a fan of this lily livered "It's great because look at the reviews, awards and box office it's received!!!!!!" form of argument tbh. It really blocks out discussion and is full of fallacies, as if you can scientifically prove a film's worth by some star number on a website.

Not posting this to argue with any boards user in particular. It's just something that bothers me about what Empire, IMDB and Rottentomatoes etc do. :pac:

cactuspaw

The dark night is cosidered better then the shawshank redemption (not to mention star wars v at 1).

Look, il take my chances with imdb thanks!

e_e

If you're gonna call out Dark Knight beating a certain film, you can do a whole lot better than Shawshank in fairness. Both placements in the top 5 are equally suspect to me. :pac:

But looking at the list one more time, I really get the sense that a good portion of the voters only read Empire to get their blockbuster franchise fix. Not a bad thing in itself but for lists as self-importantly titled as this it does irk me a little bit as (from my own experience of watching movies) it sets a poor standard for what should be considered truly great films. The inclusion of Desolation of Smaug in particular just makes me go "what?", not only a really poor film for me but it's indicative of a really bad trend in film making.

Arghus

A real travesty that list. I wouldn't accuse Empire of being a total rag, it does have some good features from time to time and the occasional good writer has done their stuff for it throughout the years, but they should be ashamed as a film magazine to publish that. Really laughable stuff. There might be something to be said for the writers themselves giving their top films but that also could be just as tragic. We'd be under no illusions then.

the whole year inn

There some great movies on that list.What's wrong with dark knight great movie in my option and had to stop watching it I seen it so many times as I had to do with terminator 2 .
The wolf of wall street is an instant classic for me but I guess since its not in black and white and in French it's had to be dismissed.

The average reader doesn't even know the sight and sound list but then again why should they.

It's all subjective really , just because you like doesn't mean I will or have to ,2001 space Odyssey bored me to tears but I would glady watch 12 angry men again.
Basically get off your high horses!!

I will agree that iron man and transformers should be no where near anyone list.

pixelburp

Gah.
I saw this thread, thought to myself "now don't be judgmental, it could surprise you".
Then I saw the third post and krudler's mention of Transformers being on this list.
Nopppppe. I'm out. Don't even need to read it now.


Honestly though, what is with humanity's desperate need to quantify and order everything by 'greatness'? Is it an underlining, baseline level of OCD or something? I don't care whether its Empire or Sight & Sound - and as far as I'm concerned both publications are made by film-fans, neither are more worthy than the other (though admittedly Empire often shows itself up) - any form of list based off an inherently subjective and emotional concept as film is utterly redundant and open to question / ridicule / a mixture of both. It's nice they tend to strike up conversation about the relative merits of certain films, but ultimately they feel like fool's errands. Can't we all just get along?

You know what I consider one of the greatest films ever made? The Princess Bride. A beautiful, funny piece of entertainment. But I sure as heck wouldn't put it into a top 10 or the like with anything else, because it just demeans it and its 'competition'.

MakeEmLaugh

e_e wrote: »

Yeah I think it lends to the argument that Sight & Sound do far and away the best of these lists because they get to voters who are proven to know a good deal about film.

Might as well call this list "Here's 300 movies that random people like!"

While I agree with you in theory, contributing to the Sight & Sound list does not guarantee impeccable choices.

Mark Kermode, who's probably the most popular film critic in the UK, had an extremely subjective list of the Top Greatest Films Ever Made (as he referred to it).

Mary Poppins was on his list, for God's sake!

And Jeff Nichols, who directed Mud and Take Shelter, had Fletch on his list.

Starscream25

Ya I'm delighted to see 12 angry men and seven samurai up there, fantastic films Imo, the goonies for me gets an honourable mention, Jason and the argonauts and sunshine maybe would of been good to see. I'm throwing deliverance in there too

e_e

the whole year inn wrote: »

The wolf of wall street is an instant classic for me but I guess since its not in black and white and in French it's had to be dismissed.

Nobody's saying anything of the sort! Why do people always jump to this conclusion?

The Wolf of Wall Street is miles away from instant classic status for me because it's repetitive, empty, shallow and tedious. One of Scorsese's worst ever films and a poor man's Goodfellas. That inclusion is really indicative of the flavor of the month vibe to this list, really can't see how anybody would sincerely call it one of the best films ever made.

e_e

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

While I agree with you in theory, contributing to the Sight & Sound list does not guarantee impeccable choices.

Mark Kermode, who's probably the most popular film critic in the UK, had an extremely subjective list of the Top Greatest Films Ever Made (as he referred to it).

Mary Poppins was on his list, for God's sake!

And Jeff Nichols, who directed Mud and Take Shelter, had Fletch on his list.

It's just what comes from people being truly honest in the films that inspired them, I really don't see a problem with that. It's not like the majority of critics and film makers polled are gonna go for Mary Poppins either.

The Pheasant2

The Winter soldier 50 ranks higher than Casino...Christ...

deeks

Not going to get into the rights and wrongs of the list but one thing that really surprised me was the relatively low placing of Avatar. Given the obvious bias towards recent blockbusters I would have expected it to feature much higher. Personally I didn't particularly like the movie but given that this list was voted by the public who helped it earn like a gazillion dollars at the box office I actually thought it would be near the Top 10.

Oh and Avengers Assemble at No. 16. Seriously!!!!!! :-)

IrishAlice

Not one but TWO Harry Potter movies on the list!

Don't get me wrong I love the books but the films are pure muck.

Glad to see a couple of my personal favorites there - The Departed and Stand By Me.

FunLover18

e_e wrote: »

I've never responded to films this way tbh. I don't think you can prove why a film is good/bad on objective terms either so all we have is our own subjective responses really. Of course there are films out there that the majority will love but it doesn't devalue anybody else having anything negative to say imo.

For example I don't think that Slumdog Millionaire is a good film on any level at all (on the other end loads hated The Tree of Life but I think it's the best film of the decade so far) despite what a tonne of people think, but others are entitled to feel the opposite so a discussion starts! Not a fan of this lily livered "It's great because look at the reviews, awards and box office it's received!!!!!!" form of argument tbh. It really blocks out discussion and is full of fallacies, as if you can scientifically prove a film's worth by some star number on a website.

Not posting this to argue with any boards user in particular. It's just something that bothers me about what Empire, IMDB and Rottentomatoes etc do. :pac:

I agree to a certain degree but I think there are certain aspects of film that can be viewed objectively. Such as cinetmatography or writing, but maybe I'm just fooling myself. For instance the cinematography in The Assassination Of Jesse James is fantastic but because of how if affects an already slow slow and "deep" film I got tired of it easily. I think cinematography can be looked at objectively, but how it affects the film in the eyes of the viewer then is completely subjective, if that makes any sense.

I don't like rating systems either because there's very little indication of the lines are between a 5 and 4 start or between a 5 and a 6 out of ten. Personally if I'm in a position where I have to rate a film, I usually do it out of ten and divide in half so that five relates the quality of the film writing, direction, etc, and 5 for how much I enjoyed it.

deeks wrote: »

Not going to get into the rights and wrongs of the list but one thing that really surprised me was the relatively low placing of Avatar. Given the obvious bias towards recent blockbusters I would have expected it to feature much higher. Personally I didn't particularly like the movie but given that this list was voted by the public who helped it earn like a gazillion dollars at the box office I actually thought it would be near the Top 10.

Oh and Avengers Assemble at No. 16. Seriously!!!!!! :-)

Avatar is one of those films that time will do justice to. An extremely mediocre film at best that was ridiculously overhyped and blown out of the water because of the leap in effects and because Cameron had put so much into it. I think Skyfall will eventually fall out of favour as well, I'm convinced that the key factors to that films success were the poor receoption of QoS previously and the celebration of Britishness that was occurring at the time, London 2012, Queen's diamond jubilee, plus it it Bond's 50th

e_e

Yeah I see what you're saying but people place different values on cinematography, writing etc. For example I'm more likely than some others to forgive a film with weak writing if it happens to be beautifully shot, acted and edited.

Definitely agree with you on Avatar. Kind of enjoyed it at the time but then just saw it on blu-ray as the glorified tech demo that it was. Kind of an ugly looking film too imo, very plastic looking and the whole color and design looks like a bad prog rock album's cover. :pac:

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

list doesn't have a matter of life and death or the life and death of colonel blimp?

get ta fuk

FunLover18

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

list doesn't have a matter of life and death or the life and death of colonel blimp?

get ta fuk

Matter Of Life And Death is there, I think it's in the two hundreds and certainly in the magazine there's a very good, if brief, article on how it was ahead of its time.

Film is subjective and all that but there is no way you can release a list titled the 301 greatest films and then include Transformers and most of the others on that list. Nothing to do with being pretentious or up on a high horse but rather an ability to recognise that a great film is one that entertains, has something to say and is an all round great piece of work. Every aspect has to impress, from the acting to the cinematography to the FX to the script and so on.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

FunLover18 wrote: »

Matter Of Life And Death is there, I think it's in the two hundreds and certainly in the magazine there's a very good, if brief, article on how it was ahead of its time.

oh, i searched in chrome and couldn't find it or stairway

in my anger over blimp being excluded I must have made a typo

FunLover18

Deleted User wrote: »

Film is subjective and all that but there is no way you can release a list titled the 301 greatest films and then include Transformers and most of the others on that list. Nothing to do with being pretentious or up on a high horse but rather an ability to recognise that a great film is one that entertains, has something to say and is an all round great piece of work. Every aspect has to impress, from the acting to the cinematography to the FX to the script and so on.

Aye but such a list is impossible because as has already been discussed a film as a whole cannot be measured objectively especially in terms of entertainment.

e_e

But I think whether it's subjective or not the list creators should be able to back up their choices with good arguments, that and Transformers clearly doesn't meet many people's standards.

FunLover18

e_e wrote: »

But I think whether it's subjective or not the list creators should be able to back up their choices with good arguments, that and Transformers clearly doesn't meet many people's standards.

But they didn't choose the list, it was voted for. All the people at Empire did was count up the votes, so it's hard to argue for a film that you have no idea why it's there

e_e

That's the thing though, "greatest of all time" is such a strong statement and it should be backed up. The list makes itself redundant with how haphazardly it was made in the first place.

FunLover18

FunLover18 wrote: »

Aye but such a list is impossible because as has already been discussed a film as a whole cannot be measured objectively especially in terms of entertainment.

But then don't try and claim that you list is anything other than a bit of fun. Calling it Empire's 301 'Greatest Films' implies that it's a list of the best films ever made according to the staff of the magazine and anyways no matter how you measure greatness Transformers will never be in anyway close to being considered for it. The list is the kind of fanboy pleasing, bargain basement insight that Empire has became known for.