First Trip to court for learner driver

Mauricmo

Hi folks,

I'm just looking for a bit of advice in relation to court and the procedures involved. I have been summoned for driving unaccompanied on a learners permit last year. I have no intention of contesting this and intend to plead guilty.

I do however need advice as what to expect in court.

How do these cases normally go in court?

Is a solicitor necessary, seeing as I plan on pleading guilty?- I would like to keep costs as low as possible seeing as I am likely to be fined(I think!)

Thanks

coylemj

What excuse do you intend to use?

Q: How do these cases go in court?

A: Assuming you have no solicitor: The case will be called, you step forward, the defendant (you) typically stands or sits immediately behind the solicitors' bench, the judge (to speed things up) will ask you if you'd like to plead (guilty or not guilty). Based on what you've said, it looks like you'll plead guilty in which case the prosecuting Garda will outline the bare bones of what happened and the judge will then ask you if you'd like to say anything - that's the cue for your excuse and apology. Don't make a pantomime of the situation and whatever you do, don't crack any jokes or attempt to introduce any level of triviality to the proceedings, be very serious and respectful and hope for the best.

But you'd probably be better off with a solicitor.

V.W.L 11

if you have no previous convictions,which on a first court appearance you don't,then pleading guilty could see you get the probation act or a conditional discharge,or a donation to charity,however that last option is or is due to be phased out,the court poor box is another name for it.which district court is it OP???other boardsies might have an idea of what the judge's in that court are like and can better advise you

Mauricmo

coylemj wrote: »

What excuse do you intend to use?


But you'd probably be better off with a solicitor.

Am I required to give an excuse? Because I honestly don't have one! I will of course apologise given the opportunity.
Is the excuse/apology something that is always done?

V.W.L 11 wrote: »

which district court is it OP???other boardsies might have an idea of what the judge's in that court are like and can better advise you

It's in the Dun Laoighre Courthouse.

Thanks for the replies

V.W.L 11

Mauricmo wrote: »

Am I required to give an excuse? Because I honestly don't have one! I will of course apologise given the opportunity.
Is the excuse/apology something that is always done?



It's in the Dun Laoighre Courthouse.

Thanks for the replies

if i'm to be honest I was brought before Cork District Court in 2007 for that exact offence,i was represented I admit,in the end I gave no evidence and the judge dismissed the charge after hearing it was an error for which I was sorry and the fact I had no previous convictions went in my favour,tell the court you want a solicitor to represent you,on legal aid if you don't work,seek an adjournment and discuss it with the solicitor, you may have mitigating factors yourself,as in the reasons for your actions,was it out of character for you etc!

coylemj

Mauricmo wrote: »

Am I required to give an excuse? Because I honestly don't have one! I will of course apologise given the opportunity.
Is the excuse/apology something that is always done?

In my reply to your first post I said that you'd be 'better off' with a solicitor. Based on those questions above I'm going to change that to a stern warning - get a solicitor!

V.W.L 11

coylemj wrote: »

In my reply to your first post I said that you'd be 'better off' with a solicitor. Based on those questions above I'm going to change that to a stern warning - get a solicitor!

from experience I second the OP's advice on the solicitor

Mauricmo

Solicitor it is then.

Thanks

V.W.L 11

Mauricmo wrote: »

Solicitor it is then.

Thanks

when's the court date OP???

No Pants

Don't drive unaccompanied to or from the courthouse OP.

Pat Mustard

Mauricmo wrote: »

Solicitor it is then.

Thanks

By all means, get a solicitor if you want. But it is a minor road traffic offence, so you shouldn't feel that you must hire one, assuming that everything you say is correct.

Up to you.

coylemj

The Mustard wrote: »

By all means, get a solicitor if you want. But it is a minor road traffic offence....

A 'minor' offence?

Driving unaccompanied or without 'L' plates carries a maximum fine of up to €1,000 for a first conviction.

TimeToShine

I'll eat my hat if he's fined over 400.

Pat Mustard

coylemj wrote: »

A 'minor' offence?

Driving unaccompanied or without 'L' plates carries a maximum fine of up to €1,000 for a first conviction.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/criminal_law/criminal_offences/classification_of_crimes_in_criminal_cases.html

All that can be said with certainty is that an offence is minor where the punishment is less than six months imprisonment (Conroy v Attorney General [1965] IR 411), whereas an offence is non-minor where the punishment is two years or more (Mallon v Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry [1996] 1 IR 517). It appears, however, that the courts have come to the belief an offence with a maximum prison sentence of twelve months constitutes a minor offence. It can be said as a result that any offence that carries a penalty of more than twelve months imprisonment is considered a non-minor offence.

No Pants

TimeToShine wrote: »

I'll eat my hat if he's fined over 400.

No need to get the salt and pepper.

The average fine imposed was €123.

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/unaccompanied-learner-drivers-escape-serious-fines-1.1721004

coylemj

The Mustard wrote: »

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/criminal_law/criminal_offences/classification_of_crimes_in_criminal_cases.html

There's a difference between what the law considers a 'minor offence' and what in plain English most of us would consider 'minor'.

For example, dangerous driving (not involving death or serious injury) in law is a 'minor' offence as is drink driving but the vast majority of people who are summonsed for either of those offences show up in court with a solicitor and in a lot of cases (esp. drink driving) with a barrister. There are assault and public order offences which carry terms of imprisonment of less than two years for which most sensible people would employ a solicitor for fear of getting a suspended sentence or worse.

So it is not valid to say that just because an offence falls into the legal category of 'minor offence' that you don't need a solicitor.

V.W.L 11

coylemj wrote: »

There's a difference between what the law considers a 'minor offence' and what in plain English most of us would consider 'minor'.

For example, dangerous driving (not involving death or serious injury) in law is a 'minor' offence as is drink driving but the vast majority of people who are summonsed for either of those offences show up in court with a solicitor and in a lot of cases (esp. drink driving) with a barrister. There are assault and public order offences which carry terms of imprisonment of less than two years for which most sensible people would employ a solicitor for fear of getting a suspended sentence or worse.

So it is not valid to say that just because an offence falls into the legal category of 'minor offence' that you don't need a solicitor.

I was once charged with Dangerous Driving later reduced to careless driving on conviction,i always remember the judge telling the solicitor "ITS A SERIOUS OFFENCE HE'S CHARGED WITH" all in all that was only a material damage accident but still they deemed it serious!

Pat Mustard

coylemj wrote: »

So it is not valid to say that just because an offence falls into the legal category of 'minor offence' that you don't need a solicitor.

Even if we are talking about the colloquial interpretation, I'd say that this offence is fairly low down the scale, above running a red light, failing to wear a seatbelt, or most parking offences.

If the OP wants to get a solicitor, that's okay, but if his version of events is correct, and if he is pleading guilty, it may be worth considering that there are many ordinary lay people who have managed to represent themselves adequately in the District Court in matters like this.

coylemj

The Mustard wrote: »

If the OP wants to get a solicitor, that's okay, but if his version of events is correct, and if he is pleading guilty, it may be worth considering that there are many ordinary lay people who have managed to represent themselves adequately in the District Court in matters like this.

Fair point and if you read back over my posts in this thread, I told the OP originally that he would be 'better off' with a solicitor. That was purely an economic evaluation on my part based on the potential fine the offence can attract.

However it transpired from subsequent posts that the OP is lamentably ignorant of the basic procedures that are followed when someone represents himself in court i.e. that the judge will give him an opportunity to say something and the OP (1) wasn't aware that he'd be expected to speak and (2) didn't realise that he'd have to come up with some class of an excuse or explanation. At which point I recommended that he get a solicitor.

Someone has quoted stats about the number of people who get dismissals and the average fine for a conviction is apparently €123, I bet if you took out the people who turned up with a solicitor from those stats it would be a different story.

Pat Mustard

The OP is unfamiliar with District Court procedure. However, unless he's listed to be heard first thing in the morning, he may have a chance to listen to other matters being heard beforehand.

The other thing is that even though somebody may not be familiar with procedure, the judge will ask whether a defendant is pleading or not and will also ask whether the defendant has anything to say for himself. The judge has to get through his list and is likely to prompt matters along.

V.W.L 11

regardless of how severe or minor the offence is the OP should be looking to avoid getting a conviction regardless,maybe legal advice at the very least if not legal representation?