Running the SPR - Shortest Possible Route

Condo131

Been a while since I posted something on this topic. Time for a re-visit. Yesterday, I kept calling to groups to "run the line". I think the majority thought (maybe rightly!) that I should be locked up.

Everyone claims to run the line, but, in reality very, very few actually do - usually the leaders/front runners. On a winding route, by hogging the ditch, you can add significantly to the specified distance.

Run bend/turn to bend/turn - line of sight. The only time I recommend not doing so, is when heading into a headwind.

Photo From CCM, yesterday:
Just after 17M mark in Cork City Marathon, 4M in Half. These people are heading for around 3:10/3:20.
Blue line is, more or less where it was measured.
Yellow line is where the vast majority ran.

sideswipe

I think its a case of people not being used to having the road closed off for them. They are naturally drawn to the shoulder/safe side of the road where the majority would run their training runs.

eliwallach

While running the SPR yesterday John, I was thinking of your sage advice (oftentimes I found myself isolated on the opposite side of the road, especially coming down the incline to Ballyphehane church), but it can be tricky at times as you often have to cut across the running line of the majority ( who are running the long route).

Ososlo

Condo131 wrote: »

Been a while since I posted something on this topic. Time for a re-visit. Yesterday, I kept calling to groups to "run the line". I think the majority thought (maybe rightly!) that I should be locked up.

Everyone claims to run the line, but, in reality very, very few actually do - usually the leaders/front runners. On a winding route, by hogging the ditch, you can add significantly to the specified distance.

Run bend/turn to bend/turn - line of sight. The only time I recommend not doing so, is when heading into a headwind.

Photo From CCM, yesterday:
Just after 17M mark in Cork City Marathon, 4M in Half. These people are heading for around 3:10/3:20.
Blue line is, more or less where it was measured.
Yellow line is where the vast majority ran.

Very useful post Condo thanks. I always add a big distance onto my races by not doing this. Rookie mistake I guess.

Condo131

eliwallach wrote: »

it can be tricky at times as you often have to cut across the running line of the majority ( who are running the long route).

I know exactly what you mean! Sometimes I find myself "running the line", having to cut hard across a group, only to cut back again going to the other side again....like cutting through a Riverdance troupe in action!

I think this must be where the phrase "They're all out of step, except my Johnnie" came from. :rolleyes:

re sideswipe's post: yeah, you're probably right, with people following their training run safety strategies. There's also a but if 'follow the leader' / lemming effect, I think.

Cona

Excellent Post Condo, I rarely eve think of the running line unless its a very windy course...Out of curiousity, any idea how much time you may lose over the course of a marathon by not taking the line?
I guess its impossible to quantify...I forgot to stop my watch after crossing the line so I cant say for sure how much over the 26.2 miles I ran....

Condo131

Thanks Cona, as for extra distance/time, I can't really say - it'll differ from course to course, particularly where there is a winding route.

There is a section of yesterday's course, between Turner's Cross church and Tramore Road, about 1/3rd Mile, which is quite winding. At some stage, when I've nothing better to do (other than post on Boards! :rolleyes: LOL ), I'd like to measure this section both taking the SPR line, and the "hamster line", and compare. Doing a rough estimate, using a common web-based tool, it looks like the "hamster line" is about 17m longer in approx. 1/3rd Mile. Repeated over the full distance, that would come out at approx. 0.85M :eek:. SPR is 'yer only man'!

cianc

If there's a significant camber to the road it can be kind of uncomfortable, though some of that might be psychological I suppose.

Condo131

cianc wrote: »

If there's a significant camber to the road it can be kind of uncomfortable, though some of that might be psychological I suppose.

Yeah, I agree. I should have said that earlier - I regularly stay out of areas where it's like one foot on the road and the other on the footpath, but, I measure on the SPR. It can be a trade-off when racing, whether to run over sections with bad surface/camber/whatever.

Cona

Condo, Do you measure cutting across footpaths also?

I seem to remember a few points of the course that you could have ran the footpath, of course most stuck to the road

robinph

Would run the shortest route wherever possible and often find myself on my own on the other side to everyone else. Except for near the start and it's too crowded where I'll try and run the longest route to avoid the congestion and getting tripped up. Seems like it's only at the start where people aim for the short route, but once the crowds thin out people loose the ability to think in terms of trying for the racing line.

Condo131

Cona wrote: »

Condo, Do you measure cutting across footpaths also? I seem to remember a few points of the course that you could have ran the footpath, of course most stuck to the road

In general, no.

However.....
Where it is possible to take shortcuts, runners should be prevented from doing so (by way of physical barriers). On yesterday's course(s) there were several points where barriers were mandatory. These were mandatory, however several were not in place yesterday. In two key locations, I was able to observe that nobody took those shortcuts, so was not too bothered. I will, however, be taking this up with the organisers for next year's event.

I find that race leaders rarely take shortcuts, however the chasing bunch (some of whom may eventually win) are far more likely to try too catch up by 'taking liberties'

One of the prime ideas behind measurement is to ensure that nobody can run less than the stated distance. If it's possible to run shorter, then those areas must be barriered. [One assumes that people are honest, so you don't need to barrier off the side road that may allow someone to cut out, say, 2 miles of a Marathon - I know, it happens, but that's cheating, not 'pushing the limits']

So corners/footpaths...if it makes a significant difference, barrier it off.

PVincent

It is one thing that we say to our club runners doing marathons every year. It could save minutes if you can run the tight line. I ran the elite line in London in 2013 ( easy to follow as it was an Adidas blue series of lines) and it was the shortest marathon I ever did of the 8 I have done. 26.26 to be exact , so that's an extra 85 yards or so ...not bad over 26 miles. You only have to look at the posts here on short races , never mind marathons to see what extra people run. And you know Condo , it's a great distraction for the mind because it keeps you focused on something useful and you know it will and can make a difference . I found it to be quite a therapeutic way to run a marathon and never actually had an issue with people getting in the way or me crossing in front of people .. And I was at 3.24 pace so the road was busy enough . Mind you the presence of one of those guys running in those manikini outfits for most of the marathon probably helped keep the road a bit clearer as nobody wanted to be too close to him .

ArtieFufkin

I'm amazed at some of the lines you see runners taking in marathons. They must be adding on around 500m in some cases. I'm alway looking for the shortest route providing it doesn't mean hitting rough ground or going over an extreme camber. I imagine that I'm driving an f1 car and trying to take the racing line all the time.

brenmur

Have to say I think the road around the 10k mark (after the 1st relay changeover) is another section with a good opportunity to run the line. It does mean drifting over to the left of the road rather than hugging the footpath on the right (as we ran). For what it's worth this year's garmin was 26.36 - last years was 26.42. small difference and within the garmin's margin of error but i take anything that shows an improvement.

robinph

PVincent wrote: »

It is one thing that we say to our club runners doing marathons every year. It could save minutes if you can run the tight line. I ran the elite line in London in 2013 ( easy to follow as it was an Adidas blue series of lines) and it was the shortest marathon I ever did of the 8 I have done. 26.26 to be exact , so that's an extra 85 yards or so ...not bad over 26 miles.

That is very close measurement for London, considering the random lines that you get the Garmin drawing around Canary Warf etc. If you measured the route you took with something more reliable than a GPS it would probably be more than 85 yards extra, but that is still an impressively low figure.



Based on some calculations I've seen about the distance of lane 8 of a running track, you'll potentially be running an extra 25+ meters for every single bend that you don't take the shortest line on, and as most bends on roads are not as tight as on a running track I'd expect that to be quite a bit more a lot of the time.

plodder

In our parkrun, we measured the course with a wheel, but not properly following the racing line first. There's a big lap that's about 3km, and when we measured it using the racing line then, it was over 60m shorter. I was really surprised by the difference, over only 3km.

walshb

In general do the elites most of the time try and run the SPR?

robinph

walshb wrote: »

In general do the elites most of the time try and run the SPR?

The guy following the camera bike and timing clock will usually be, the guys behind could be going any which way once they are not close enough. When running in amongst the club runners you'll see a line of people just following the guy infront, if a significant gap appears between groups then the next group could take either line. When I split from a group in order to take a shorter line, only then do the people behind also move across and also follow the shorter line as they realise their mistake.




I would take the longer line deliberately on occasions, such as when running cross country where all bets are off and it's about finding the best surface, but also in road races where there may be shade only on one side of the road on a hot day.

walshb

I wonder if concentrating too much on trying to run the SPR could affect your rhythm and focus? It's an extra detail you are adding to your race plan.

robinph

walshb wrote: »

I wonder if concentrating too much on trying to run the SPR could affect your rhythm and focus? It's an extra detail you are adding to your race plan.

It probably would do if you get too caught up in it when finding yourself on the wrong side of a group on the wrong side of the road so that you can't get back across to the shorter route. So that would be a wasted effort in worrying about it, just stick to the running forwards and not getting tripped up or tripping anyone else up.

statss

Does the Dublin Marathon have a blue line? (Didn't notice one last year)

Krusty_Clown

statss wrote: »

Does the Dublin Marathon have a blue line? (Didn't notice one last year)

Nope. Would be a nice addition, though I'd imagine it would be a considerable amount of work. I love arriving in a city and seeing those blue/red lines on the marathon course. Really builds the excitement.

One of the problems as a runner, is that we don't always know how the course has been measured. Many races for example have an expectation that you stay in the hard shoulder, or in one specific lane of traffic. Others have you navigating a roundabout on a road open to traffic, manned by Gardai/marshals (national road relays in Raheny is a good example of this). In some cases we could be unknowingly cutting the course, by using additional lanes of traffic, or cutting kurbs/pavements.

I wonder what the trade-off is like, between sheltering behind another runner versus running the racing line. Obviously depends on conditions (and how badly the leading runner is following the racing line), but when the head-wind hits 4/5 m/s, it's probably worth chasing the runner, rather than the shortest possible route.

Timmaay

walshb wrote: »

I wonder if concentrating too much on trying to run the SPR could affect your rhythm and focus? It's an extra detail you are adding to your race plan.

I definely use it as an aid ha, gives me something to focus on, instead of thinking about the pain you are in or worse again losing focus totally and thinking about what you had for dinner last night or whatever! In fairness racing isn't complex, aside from having a few splits etc to remember, most people's game plans don't require a huge amount of thought during the race itself so focusing on the likes of the racing line instead is a perfect distraction.

dna_leri

Is the marathon blue line always = SPR or are they sometimes done by different people?
SPR is by experienced measurer, blue line by experienced line painter ?

Condo131

dna_leri wrote: »

SPR is by experienced measurer, blue line by experienced line painter ?

Yup! Bad enough measuring. Between calibrating before & after, waiting for Garda escort clearances/traffic/whatever, the last measurement of Cork took approx. 11 hours in all (04am - 3PM) :eek::eek::eek:. Add painting lines to that and we'd still be out there! :rolleyes:

Drafting - I read, several years ago, that running up to 30m behind a runner can benefit you in a headwind. Maybe someone into fluidics could throw a bit more light on that.

The reason there's no line in Dublin is that we're gob****es in this country when it comes to RTA's. In the mid 80's dublin was partly sponsored by Berger paints. All the Mile marks and turns were painted on the roads. About 8 or 9 months after the marathon, there was an RTA. DCM was one of the defendants....the claim included confusion over road markings. So, no more markings after that. Afaicr, DCM had no liability, but there would have been costs/time in defending.

KielyUnusual

Condo131 wrote: »

Yup! Bad enough measuring. Between calibrating before & after, waiting for Garda escort clearances/traffic/whatever, the last measurement of Cork took approx. 11 hours in all (04am - 3PM) :eek::eek::eek:. Add painting lines to that and we'd still be out there! :rolleyes:

Drafting - I read, several years ago, that running up to 30m behind a runner can benefit you in a headwind. Maybe someone into fluidics could throw a bit more light on that.

The reason there's no line in Dublin is that we're gob****es in this country when it comes to RTA's. In the mid 80's dublin was partly sponsored by Berger paints. All the Mile marks and turns were painted on the roads. About 8 or 9 months after the marathon, there was an RTA. DCM was one of the defendants....the claim included confusion over road markings. So, no more markings after that. Afaicr, DCM had no liability, but there would have been costs/time in defending.

RTA are some shower alright. E200 a year they expect you to pay and still there's nothing on the bloody box when you switch it on.

Condo131

KielyUnusual wrote: »

RTA are some shower alright. E200 a year they expect you to pay and still there's nothing on the bloody box when you switch it on.

RTA = Road Traffic Accident.

clear thinking

Spr actually can be great for focus as you have to concentrate on it which keeps demons at bay. One of my better 10ks was in dunshaughlin which is pretty winding. I passed dozens of runners who should have been better than me taking the shorter route.
There's a psychological benefit too as passing others gives you that runners high that bit more easily.

Even on the track its good as you can save 2m per lap as the line is measured 30cm outside the line. On the road you'll tend to see follow the leader kick in if you look over your shoulder

yaboya1

dna_leri wrote: »

Is the marathon blue line always = SPR or are they sometimes done by different people?
SPR is by experienced measurer, blue line by experienced line painter ?

The SPR line was green in Seville.

viperlogic

Condo131 wrote: »

Been a while since I posted something on this topic. Time for a re-visit. Yesterday, I kept calling to groups to "run the line". I think the majority thought (maybe rightly!) that I should be locked up.

Everyone claims to run the line, but, in reality very, very few actually do - usually the leaders/front runners. On a winding route, by hogging the ditch, you can add significantly to the specified distance.

Run bend/turn to bend/turn - line of sight. The only time I recommend not doing so, is when heading into a headwind.

Photo From CCM, yesterday:
Just after 17M mark in Cork City Marathon, 4M in Half. These people are heading for around 3:10/3:20.
Blue line is, more or less where it was measured.
Yellow line is where the vast majority ran.

I made a conscious effort on Monday. Here is a pic of me (in red) in same area as pointed out following the racing line. You can see others in the background not following it.



The other benefit of following the racing line is the change of camber. My first marathon I pretty much stuck to one side of the road the whole way and boy was my IT band on one side ready to explode coz of it