Status of modern foreign languages in your school

linguist

Sticking close to my username on this one I suppose. I'm interested in gauging the current policies of schools regarding these languages. I know that many Irish language teachers resent the idea that theirs isn't a modern language hence my use of the full term in the title. Obviously Irish is compulsory so it doesn't enter into the topic.

I'd like to know whether foreign languages are compulsory or optional in junior cycle and/or senior cycle in your school. It would also help if respondents would indicate their sector (voluntary/C&C/ETB). I'm getting the feeling that some principals are beginning to waver on this issue with obvious implications for language teachers. It just isn't getting through to people that there are hundreds if not thousands of jobs in Ireland for which knowledge of a foreign language is an advantage or a requirement. Anyway, enough of my personal views on this one, I'm just interested in getting a sense of where things are at.

spurious

Retired, but speaking for my old school.
Compulsory at both JC and LC - ETB

teacherhead

spurious wrote: »

Retired, but speaking for my old school.
Compulsory at both JC and LC - ETB

compulsory at jc, with option ofdoing a second.

option at lc

evolving_doors

I'm not a language teacher but I hate the whole ' pandering to the latest tech call centre company' demands.

On the one hand there's companies that find it hard to get staff that have certain language skills... But yet announce the jobs before discovering this.. HERE.

Then there's those that say... Train your own staff... there's a difference between education and training... HERE.

maybe we do need to be more dynamic in what schools offer, but as we know it takes about 5 years to embed a new curriculum/language.. Then there's the issue of dropping 'non-industry-demanded languages' to make room.

Oh yeah sorry ...ranting there... Compulsory at JC with the option of 2...kind of voluntary at LC but with college requirements majority do 1...(fee charging school).

From what I know of language teachers , they seem to enjoy buying into the culture of the country and not just the mechanics of the language. So I don't think its quite as easy as a principal suggesting they take up a new language for next term to 'meet the demand'.

Basically it comes down to resources...and as we've seen, that went to the wall with withdrawing the introduction and supporting of foreign languages in Primary. If folk want it then they can put their hand in their pocket and cough up.... I don't see PayPal rushing to fund anything substantial in our education system lately.

rainbowtrout

Foreign language is compulsory in my school for JC - French or German. They are optional at LC, but most take a language for college requirements. That is changing as more of the colleges open up courses and removing the foreign language requirement. I agree with this change in requirements at third level as I don't why students should be excluded from applying say for science or engineering at a university because they didn't take French for LC.

While I would like to see foreign languages continue to be offered in this way in my school I wouldn't be in a hurry to push a student to do a language to go working in a call centre. Call centre work can be crap at the best of times, regardless of the language spoken.

I'd agree with Armelodie on that link. How many languages would we have to offer to satisfy the language requirements of the likes of Paypal. I'm going to take a wild guess that if they set up their call centre in Norway, they'd still have problems recruiting Norwegians who could also speak Czech, Polish, Spanish etc.

Powerhouse

linguist wrote: »

Sticking close to my username on this one I suppose. I'm interested in gauging the current policies of schools regarding these languages. I know that many Irish language teachers resent the idea that theirs isn't a modern language hence my use of the full term in the title. Obviously Irish is compulsory so it doesn't enter into the topic.

Not the core issue of the thread I know, but since you did bring it up...........surely the term 'modern' is effectively redundant here anyway? I can't imagine you would have been inundated by stories of how Latin and Ancient Greek (i.e. classical/non-modern languages) are treated in schools if you hadn't made the distinction?

evolving_doors

Powerhouse wrote: »

Not the core issue of the thread I know, but since you did bring it up...........surely the term 'modern' is effectively redundant here anyway? I can't imagine you would have been inundated by stories of how Latin and Ancient Greek (i.e. classical/non-modern languages) are treated in schools if you hadn't made the distinction?

I think he is just acknowledging the place of irish as a modern language. Even though the term ' modern language' usually means, in staff room parlance, every language except irish (and the ' ancient ones' too.). Irish would be a different animal in terms of being compulsory. He had to use the ambiguous term ' modern' as he wanted to exclude irish from the topic without having to qualify himself later on if it was brought up.

I think

Theequalizer67

Compulsory at JC unless exemption
Option at LC
Only 1 lang possible


Irish is a major problem - it has too much status from primary onwards.

evolving_doors

Theequalizer67 wrote: »

Compulsory at JC unless exemption
Option at LC
Only 1 lang possible


Irish is a major problem - it has too much status from primary onwards.

Well in fairness to the OP this thread isnt about Irish, I could well start arguing that English or Maths has too much status since Primary, but thats for another thread I reckon.

Theequalizer67

Armelodie wrote: »

Well in fairness to the OP this thread isnt about Irish, I could well start arguing that English or Maths has too much status since Primary, but thats for another thread I reckon.

Not quite the same thing, all need basic English and maths. The status of Irish impinges on status of other languages. It's position is completely overstated in schools versus wider society.

aratsarse101

French or German (one only). Obligatory to LC level. No exemptions ever. No extra language option. Chinese as TY option.

literatefarmer

My Junior Cert year was the last year of compulsory JC French in my school with German as an option, a choice then had to be made between the two for LC. The German classes up to that point were always small with good results (3 A1s in my LC class of 12 with most of the rest getting B1s and B2s) but the decision to scrap compulsory French meant there were 30 in the LC German class below us with standards nowhere near as high. Ended up doing LC French outside school myself, best decision I ever made.

Claregirl5

I teach in a Voluntary School where French and German are our two modern foreign languages.

The study of either French or German is compulsory up to Leaving Cert, unless students have an exemption.

TY students also study Japanese and can continue up to LC.

Powerhouse

Armelodie wrote: »

I think he is just acknowledging the place of irish as a modern language. Even though the term ' modern language' usually means, in staff room parlance, every language except irish (and the ' ancient ones' too.). Irish would be a different animal in terms of being compulsory. He had to use the ambiguous term ' modern' as he wanted to exclude irish from the topic without having to qualify himself later on if it was brought up.

I think

I take your point, but my point is that the term foreign (language) on its own would have excluded Irish without the ambiguity. It was the use of the term modern that necessiated further explanation.

Anyway, I don't mean to ambush the debate and take it off on a tangent.

To answer in my own school's situation (rather than just being pass remarkable!) - there's one foreign language compulsory to JC level (though needless to say some find ways around this). There would be the capacity to have a second one as the teaching skills are there but the emphasis is elsewhere, for example, senior classes have increased to six periods a week in English and Maths and have six groups doing it - sometimes in quite small numbers.

Providing a second language would seem maybe a more productive use of all these extra teaching hours (I say that as someone teaching LC English), though the sluggish uptake at Senior cycle on the language already taught in our school would not suggest there'd be a huge demand for a second.

linguist

Thanks to all who've answered so far. I'll just address a couple of points: modern foreign languages is meant to be inoffensive. Simple as. It excludes Latin, Ancient Greek and Irish and allows for anything else. In reality, we're talking here about French. Spanish, German and Italian.

Just a quick point on the employment aspect. It's a pity that people often think that employment with languages equates to call centres. In reality there are many highly qualified jobs in Ireland for which foreign languages are a huge advantage. The problem I have is that Irish people often associate proficiency in a foreign language with being able to function overseas. We forget all of the employment there is at home, much of it very much at graduate level. Of course I agree that there are many intrinsically good elements to language study but I think we're being naive if we ignore our students' desire to have a good career.

My concern is that we could sleepwalk into a downgrading of languages in our schools by taking them for granted. There are principals who would make them voluntary the minute the NUI removed the requirement regardless of the overwhelming evidence that they are useful.

Anyway, as for me, I'm in a voluntary secondary school where we have a choice between French and Spanish with the study of language compulsory (for now!) except for those with Irish waivers which tend to be extended to French/Spanish.

rainbowtrout

linguist wrote: »

Thanks to all who've answered so far. I'll just address a couple of points: modern foreign languages is meant to be inoffensive. Simple as. It excludes Latin, Ancient Greek and Irish and allows for anything else. In reality, we're talking here about French. Spanish, German and Italian.

Just a quick point on the employment aspect. It's a pity that people often think that employment with languages equates to call centres. In reality there are many highly qualified jobs in Ireland for which foreign languages are a huge advantage. The problem I have is that Irish people often associate proficiency in a foreign language with being able to function overseas. We forget all of the employment there is at home, much of it very much at graduate level. Of course I agree that there are many intrinsically good elements to language study but I think we're being naive if we ignore our students' desire to have a good career.

My concern is that we could sleepwalk into a downgrading of languages in our schools by taking them for granted. There are principals who would make them voluntary the minute the NUI removed the requirement regardless of the overwhelming evidence that they are useful.

Anyway, as for me, I'm in a voluntary secondary school where we have a choice between French and Spanish with the study of language compulsory (for now!) except for those with Irish waivers which tend to be extended to French/Spanish.

I'm not trying to be cheeky, but what are they? I'm a science teacher so naturally biased toward my own subject, but I did both French and German for my Leaving Cert and would have done languages in college if I didn't do science and you can't really combine both.

But if a Leaving Cert student asked me in the morning what graduate jobs they could get in Ireland with a French and German degree aside from teaching I'd be at a loss.

Noccy_Mondy

French is the only language taught in our school. Compulsory for 1st year, from then on it becomes optional, but a student isn't advised to take it up in 5th year, having not done it since first - same goes for T.G. But we don't stop them if they want/need to take it up - it's just an extra workload.

teacherhead

We have a compulsory first language with an optional second language at JC. Either or both can be taken to until LC.

At present 60% of ours take one language with a further 10% taking two languages. That leaves 30% with no language. Making a language compulsory for matriculation alone is a poor reason IMO. Many students struggle with languages beyond JC, even up to JC for that matter. You are effectively forcing kids to struggle in a subject they may not like or may not want.

I think, and it's only my personal opinion, that you limit choice too much by making languages compulsory.

As someone who studied French for LC I was able to write essays about the scourge of drugs and immigration issues but I couldn't chat a bird up if I was on.holidays in France. I think the focus on the spoken language should be greater really.

That said I'm.glad I did French and since school I have improved it and have found the study of French useful to me when I learned Italian as an adult (not fluent or anything but I can get by).

In any case I couldn't agree that languages should be compulsory for all except those with a mild general learning disability or dyslexia.

I would qualify that by saying that where it is not compulsory you need strong guidance and advice for students to ensure they keep options open.

RealJohn

Either German or French is compulsory to leaving cert in our place. I haven't heard of anyone getting an exemption (and I don't know what they'd do anyway since everyone else would be studying a language).

Personally, I think that a European language should be compulsory for all students to leaving cert. We're not simply an isolated island nation and taking the attitude of "sure everyone speaks english anyway" is ignorant in the extreme. We are part of the European Union and should be willing and able to converse with at least some of our European neighbours in their own language rather than expect everyone to speak like the english (who might well leave the EU anyway and who's going to be speaking english then?) The english and the Americans take the attitude that everyone should just speak english and we laugh at them but we're becoming more and more like them.

And as for those who say Irish is given too much time and attention, there are plenty of jobs in england from what I hear.

Theequalizer67

RealJohn wrote: »

Either German or French is compulsory to leaving cert in our place. I haven't heard of anyone getting an exemption (and I don't know what they'd do anyway since everyone else would be studying a language).

Personally, I think that a European language should be compulsory for all students to leaving cert. We're not simply an isolated island nation and taking the attitude of "sure everyone speaks english anyway" is ignorant in the extreme. We are part of the European Union and should be willing and able to converse with at least some of our European neighbours in their own language rather than expect everyone to speak like the english (who might well leave the EU anyway and who's going to be speaking english then?) The english and the Americans take the attitude that everyone should just speak english and we laugh at them but we're becoming more and more like them.

And as for those who say Irish is given too much time and attention, there are plenty of jobs in england from what I hear.

Typical of attitude. Everyone is beneath you.

Irish is given too much time due to lobby groups and vested interests much like religion was. Too much public money wasted in this Republic. It's a joke.

spurious

Let's just stick to responding to the original query please.

seavill

French compulsory with Spanish optional at jc. Both optional at lc.

Personally don't believe anything but English and maths should be compulsory.
Everyone has their different talents and apptitudes so why force something on someone who has no interest or ability in.

A lot of my kids won't go onto college so have no need for a language. You could argue about travelling etc but you could easily make arguments for compulsory science business etc in the exact same way.

literatefarmer

If you don't think languages should be compulsory (or basically so) for LC I'd make the same argument for making Maths optional for those whose courses don't require it. Absolutely detested the subject: was prouder of having scraped a D in LC HL than my As in five of my other subjects. A-Level Maths isn't compulsory in Britain as far as I'm aware.

Powerhouse

rainbowtrout wrote: »

But if a Leaving Cert student asked me in the morning what graduate jobs they could get in Ireland with a French and German degree aside from teaching I'd be at a loss.

I certainly think that the utility of these languages is exaggerated by their proponents. I heard a third-level lecturer make the point recently (and this had always seemed logical to me) that most graduates would have nowhere near the level of competency in these languages to use them in a working environment. He said that he had worked in France himself in a business environment and was put to the pin of his collar to managerstruggled - and that's someone with huge exposure to the language relatively speaking. We won't even consider where that leave school-leavers.

I do see a value in learning a foreign language in school (FFS kids have to be taught something so why not a foreign language) but I think it's a more abstract value. There's a lot of BS written about the merits of 'choice' - let's get real.....schools don't have the capacity to deliver without having a strong core of subjects which are de facto compulsory. Unless of course you want to have a hundred teachers all doing two hours a week.

teacherhead

Powerhouse wrote: »

I certainly think that the utility of these languages is exaggerated by their proponents. I heard a third-level lecturer make the point recently (and this had always seemed logical to me) that most graduates would have nowhere near the level of competency in these languages to use them in a working environment. He said that he had worked in France himself in a business environment and was put to the pin of his collar to managerstruggled - and that's someone with huge exposure to the language relatively speaking. We won't even consider where that leave school-leavers.

I do see a value in learning a foreign language in school (FFS kids have to be taught something so why not a foreign language) but I think it's a more abstract value. There's a lot of BS written about the merits of 'choice' - let's get real.....schools don't have the capacity to deliver without having a strong core of subjects which are de facto compulsory. Unless of course you want to have a hundred teachers all doing two hours a week.

I'm not sure if you're referring to my post when you say bs about choice.

i think that a child should be able to choose not to do a language. That doesn't necessitate having enormous numbers of teachers on small hours. Languages are options in those cases and go into blocks against other subjects.

putting a child without an aptitude for language into a language is setting them up for failure. That isn't necessary of there amid some way of offering an alternative.

personally, and this may be off topic, i think that education here is gone far too academic. We ignore the fact that significant numbers of students do not want to go to college but want a trade or to work on the farm or work in the family business. I think sometimes we get into education for educations sake. How well does a system that priorities knowledge over all else serve the needs of our students.

RealJohn

seavill wrote: »

Personally don't believe anything but English and maths should be compulsory.

Why should english be compulsory if we're saying Irish shouldn't be? The students can already speak english and most of them won't need to be able to analyse a poem any more than they'll need to speak Irish.

seavill

I meant up to jc compulsory as I believe even by that age the numeracy and literacy levels of some are so poor it needs to be compulsory to bring them up to an acceptable level to function in society

RealJohn

seavill wrote: »

I meant up to jc compulsory as I believe even by that age the numeracy and literacy levels of some are so poor it needs to be compulsory to bring them up to an acceptable level to function in society

But at junior cycle level they don't know what they want or what they're good at anyway so surely there should be several compulsory subjects, not just two?
I also don't remember there being an awful lot on literacy in general in junior cert english (maybe it's changed). Yes, you had to be able to read and write but the same was true for subjects like history, geography, science (wouldn't you say a basic understanding of science is as important as basic algebra by the way?) and frankly, any of the languages would be as good if not better than english for the purposes of literacy because they actually tend to teach grammatical rules in the other languages which the students then become aware of in english too.

seavill

That makes less sense in my head. If they don't know what they like at jc let them try as many as possible in a taster programme as a lot of schools do and then let them choose instead of forcing them into a subject. How does it make sense to force someone into something they may hate or have no apptitude for?

It depends on the level you are taking about. If you ever sit in on a weak jc class there can be a lot of literacy and numeracy a lot of kids can't read more than. 3 letter words entering secondary school. Trying to teach literacy concepts to there's kids in a foreign language to kids who can't deal with English is ridiculous.

Also your point about other subjects is a little silly obviously knowing a little about everything is handy but they will learn less by restricting the options available than opening up the options and finding their niche

RealJohn

I was given no choices at junior cert and never felt forced into anything. Whether you feel forced into something depends on your attitude. It's come up before that students given a choice sometimes still feel forced if they have a prejudice against some of their choices.

I agree that taster courses can help but they have limited value as I know if I was a teacher trying to sell my subject, I would be putting the 'fun' stuff into those taster courses if I was worried about numbers. That would still lead to students picking courses they like over courses that would benefit them. What twelve year old student is going to pick geography over home economics? In one, you look at maps. In the other, you bake cakes.

I'm not completely against choice at junior cycle but I think it should be quite limited while the core should be as wide as possible. In some ways the new junior cycle might address this (which is the only positive I can see with regards the new proposals). Choice is fine once they're moving into the senior cycle because they have a better idea of what's actually involved in the subjects.

Languages in general help with literacy. I don't see a child with poor literacy benefitting greatly from only being exposed to one language whereas being exposed to several is likely to cause him or her to think more about all of the languages they're exposed to.

seavill

I'd have to disagree but we are going around in circles and not answering the thread really so I'll leave it there

katydid

linguist wrote: »

Sticking close to my username on this one I suppose. I'm interested in gauging the current policies of schools regarding these languages. I know that many Irish language teachers resent the idea that theirs isn't a modern language hence my use of the full term in the title. Obviously Irish is compulsory so it doesn't enter into the topic.

I'd like to know whether foreign languages are compulsory or optional in junior cycle and/or senior cycle in your school. It would also help if respondents would indicate their sector (voluntary/C&C/ETB). I'm getting the feeling that some principals are beginning to waver on this issue with obvious implications for language teachers. It just isn't getting through to people that there are hundreds if not thousands of jobs in Ireland for which knowledge of a foreign language is an advantage or a requirement. Anyway, enough of my personal views on this one, I'm just interested in getting a sense of where things are at.

Not quite relevant to your query, but you might be interested in the follow on from second level to PLC. I was employed to teach French and German twenty years ago in a FE college. At the beginning I had 22 hours, teaching languages to tourism students, sports students, and business students. Now I have none. Year by year, my language classes were taken off me, and it was a constant fight to persuade management that languages were important. Up to a few years ago, I was down to two hours a week in Tourism. And that's gone now - tourism, would you believe!

Management sees no value whatsoever in languages, despite the obvious importance for employment and further study. It's not that bad at second level, obviously, but probably only because they have to tolerate them.

katydid

Armelodie wrote: »

I'm not a language teacher but I hate the whole ' pandering to the latest tech call centre company' demands.

On the one hand there's companies that find it hard to get staff that have certain language skills... But yet announce the jobs before discovering this.. HERE.

Then there's those that say... Train your own staff... there's a difference between education and training... HERE.
.

The reality is that we will never reach a standard in languages that will enable Irish students who have studied a language at just second level, or even PLC level to perform at a reasonable level. Back in the late nineties I was involved in teaching languages on a PLC Teleservices course which was funded by the Department, in an attempt to provide homegrown workers in the teleservices industry. A lot of money was put into the project, including a couple of stints abroad on work experience for the students over a two year course. But it was a failure, because even with two years of post LC training and that time spent abroad, the Irish people were unable to compete with the native speakers that were flooding into Ireland at the time.

We can and we should provide language training for our students, but we should be realistic about what standards they can reach, and how they will use the languages they use. It's unrealistic to expect them to become fluent, but they can certainly get to a standard where they can use languages to conduct business on a day to day basis as a supplement to using English.

rainbowtrout

katydid wrote: »

Not quite relevant to your query, but you might be interested in the follow on from second level to PLC. I was employed to teach French and German twenty years ago in a FE college. At the beginning I had 22 hours, teaching languages to tourism students, sports students, and business students. Now I have none. Year by year, my language classes were taken off me, and it was a constant fight to persuade management that languages were important. Up to a few years ago, I was down to two hours a week in Tourism. And that's gone now - tourism, would you believe!

Management sees no value whatsoever in languages, despite the obvious importance for employment and further study. It's not that bad at second level, obviously, but probably only because they have to tolerate them.

I asked this question already on the thread and got no answer. Aside from teaching and call centre work what are the employment opportunities in Ireland for people with foreign language qualifications? I can't think of anything else that is obvious. None of my friends do jobs that require a foreign language aside from those that are foreign language teachers.

katydid

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I asked this question already on the thread and got no answer. Aside from teaching and call centre work what are the employment opportunities in Ireland for people with foreign language qualifications? I can't think of anything else that is obvious. None of my friends do jobs that require a foreign language aside from those that are foreign language teachers.

Tourism, catering, business, to name but a few.

seavill

I think people can look at things through rose tinted glasses a lot of the time. I can guarantee if you started a thread on business, science etc. you would get people that would swear blind on the importance of those subjects in later life as people are doing with languages. Maybe none of these people are wrong however people need to step back from their grá of something to look at things objectively

rainbowtrout

katydid wrote: »

Tourism, catering, business, to name but a few.

To be honest, and I think this is part of the problem, if I was a Leaving Cert considering what to do in college I wouldn't want to go with something that vague, I would want specific types of jobs to be named and with a third level qualification I would hope to work in some sort of employment that would have long term prospects and a decent salary.

katydid

rainbowtrout wrote: »

To be honest, and I think this is part of the problem, if I was a Leaving Cert considering what to do in college I wouldn't want to go with something that vague, I would want specific types of jobs to be named and with a third level qualification I would hope to work in some sort of employment that would have long term prospects and a decent salary.

I didn't know you wanted a specific list. Surely if you were thinking of studying, you'd have an idea what area you interested in. Hotel management? International business? Culinary arts? Tour guiding, cabin crew...

The point is that languages have a place in these areas; in some jobs more than others. That would be up to a student to decide whether or not to pick an area of study where languages would feature.

rainbowtrout

katydid wrote: »

I didn't know you wanted a specific list. Surely if you were thinking of studying, you'd have an idea what area you interested in. Hotel management? International business? Culinary arts? Tour guiding, cabin crew...

The point is that languages have a place in these areas; in some jobs more than others. That would be up to a student to decide whether or not to pick an area of study where languages would feature.

I'm a science teacher, I have no idea where a languages degree leads. Neither did I know when I was in leaving cert.

Because students considering a career as a chef don't think 'French would be useful for that' they think 'Home Economics would be useful for that'

Students don't associate foreign languages with specific careers.

katydid

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I'm a science teacher, I have no idea where a languages degree leads. Neither did I know when I was in leaving cert.

Because students considering a career as a chef don't think 'French would be useful for that' they think 'Home Economics would be useful for that'

Students don't associate foreign languages with specific careers.

I'm not just talking about degrees. Not everyone goes on to third level. There are a lot of jobs for Level 5 or 6 Fetac qualifications that involve languages, especially in hotels and catering.

There are many things students don't consider when considering a career in a certain area; that's what career guidance teachers are for :-)

RealJohn

katydid wrote: »

The reality is that we will never reach a standard in languages that will enable Irish students who have studied a language at just second level, or even PLC level to perform at a reasonable level. Back in the late nineties I was involved in teaching languages on a PLC Teleservices course which was funded by the Department, in an attempt to provide homegrown workers in the teleservices industry. A lot of money was put into the project, including a couple of stints abroad on work experience for the students over a two year course. But it was a failure, because even with two years of post LC training and that time spent abroad, the Irish people were unable to compete with the native speakers that were flooding into Ireland at the time.

I can't agree with this. I would agree that we have never reached that standard and won't the way things are but all you have to do is look at Scandinavia for proof that it can be done. The average Swede, Dane or Nowegian has excellent english by the time they leave school. There is no reason we couldn't achieve the same with the right implementation.

Of course given the frankly disgraceful situation that we can't even manage it with our own language there is no reason to think that anything will change any time soon but to take the attitude that it can't happen is just wrong.


On the usefulness of languages, I don't know if it's still the case but I remember when I was applying to the CAO in the late 90s there were an awful lot of 'commerce with German', 'commerce with French' etc. type courses on offer. Clearly someone thought at the time that having a foreign language was beneficial to business. Are those courses gone now?

katydid

RealJohn wrote: »

I can't agree with this. I would agree that we have never reached that standard and won't the way things are but all you have to do is look at Scandinavia for proof that it can be done. The average Swede, Dane or Nowegian has excellent english by the time they leave school. There is no reason we couldn't achieve the same with the right implementation.

Of course given the frankly disgraceful situation that we can't even manage it with our own language there is no reason to think that anything will change any time soon but to take the attitude that it can't happen is just wrong.


On the usefulness of languages, I don't know if it's still the case but I remember when I was applying to the CAO in the late 90s there were an awful lot of 'commerce with German', 'commerce with French' etc. type courses on offer. Clearly someone thought at the time that having a foreign language was beneficial to business. Are those courses gone now?

You can't compare us with Scandinavia, especially in terms of language learning. Motivation is a huge factor - everyone wants to learn English, so you're 99% there already as a teacher and as a learner. The Irish attitude to languages is that everyone can speak English, so why bother?

Look how many years we spend learning Irish and what we have to show for it.

It shouldn't be that way, but it is - you would think that if they want to work in an industry where languages feature, they would think differently, but they don't. And the system doesn't encourage them - as I said in my first post, in the college where I work, there is no language teaching whatsoever, even in areas like tourism.

RealJohn

But you said it yourself, that's a matter of attitude. We seem to have developed (or possibly simply inherited) the english suspicion of all that's European, that somehow we're going to be subservient to European overlords (which we are anyway) if we embrace our being part of Europe. We need, as a nation, to distance ourselves from english attitudes unless we're going to aspire to be english (in which case we might as well just petition to become part of the 'uk'). If we want to be taken seriously in Europe we need to be willing to take Europe seriously, not isolate ourselves in our little group of english-speaking islands.

katydid

RealJohn wrote: »

But you said it yourself, that's a matter of attitude. We seem to have developed (or possibly simply inherited) the english suspicion of all that's European, that somehow we're going to be subservient to European overlords (which we are anyway) if we embrace our being part of Europe. We need, as a nation, to distance ourselves from english attitudes unless we're going to aspire to be english (in which case we might as well just petition to become part of the 'uk'). If we want to be taken seriously in Europe we need to be willing to take Europe seriously, not isolate ourselves in our little group of english-speaking islands.

It's the opposite of subservience or the fear of it - it's actually arrogance and a failure to understand why we should bother learning other people's languages, since they call can and want to speak English; or so it is perceived.

Indeed, we SHOULD take Europe more seriously, we SHOULD lose the attitude; there's lots we SHOULD do. But the reality is as it is, and it was what language teachers have to deal with.

senteacher

French is compulsory in our ETB school up to Junior Cert, except for those who with a psychological report recommending they not study it.

After that, it is optional, but the vast majority of them wish to continue it, in order to "get into college", whether they are suited to college or not.

vamos!

Voluntary Sec School. French and German offered. Chinese in TY only. One language is compulsory to LC level unless student has a languages exemption. Students may study both and this is quite common (around 20% of most juniors do both) but very very few keep both to LC level. Lots of academic students want to have two sciences. I feel that STEN subjects are incredibly heavily promoted in my school at the expense of other subjects. LC Chem, for example isn't timetabled on a Monday because of the amount of bank holidays or Wednesdays because of matches but 5th year French has a double on a Monday and 6th Year French has a double on a Wednesday.

I am obviously biased as a language teacher, but I agree that at least one language should be compulsory unless students have an exemption. A language is so much more that a collection of words. Students learn English grammar as well as French grammar, culture, linguistic structures which could be used later to learn further languages, an appreciation for the world around us, problem solving skills and so much more. A foreign language is an integral part of a rounded education and should be valued rather than tolerated! Excuse the long post- my inner language teacher came out!

derb12

Is there not just the May bank holiday on a Monday? All the other Monday bank holidays are in a midterm/easter break surely?
It is amazing how some subject are "privileged" in schools. I subbed in a school once where religion couldn't be on last class of the day because how could the poor religion teachers keep the girls focussed near going home time!??!

And to answer the OP - in my current school languages get a good deal I think, mandatory french throughout, optional german as an extra (but I think there is talk of making both optional (as in you must choose one) in the near future. They also get a fair bit of promotion through linguist awards and debating etc.

literatefarmer

When I was in sixth year there was outrage among the language teachers in my alma mater because French and German was timetabled for the last class for three days a week, never really saw why it caused so much trouble.

RealJohn

literatefarmer wrote: »

When I was in sixth year there was outrage among the language teachers in my alma mater because French and German was timetabled for the last class for three days a week, never really saw why it caused so much trouble.

It's a real pain keeping students focused (even well motivated students) at the end of the day. I had three of my leaving cert maths classes last class of the day this year and I know that it's a contributing factor to the low number doing higher level this year because they weren't able to focus as well and as a result, think that they're weaker than they actually are.

vamos!

derb12 wrote: »

Is there not just the May bank holiday on a Monday? All the other Monday bank holidays are in a midterm/easter break surely?
It is amazing how some subject are "privileged" in schools. I subbed in a school once where religion couldn't be on last class of the day because how could the poor religion teachers keep the girls focussed near going home time!??!

And to answer the OP - in my current school languages get a good deal I think, mandatory french throughout, optional german as an extra (but I think there is talk of making both optional (as in you must choose one) in the near future. They also get a fair bit of promotion through linguist awards and debating etc.

There aren't actually a lot of bank holidays. I checked my planner though and with masses, speakers and assemblies we missed 4 doubles this year and 3 single classes. Not including holidays. That's a lot. I get that these things happen but I remember the uproar when we wanted to break early for lunch ahead of sports day and it would have knocked 30 mins off double maths. Sports Day was moved to a Monday!! We do our best promoting our languages with events, debating, film club etc but some subjects are considered as more important. I don't think it's a reflection on how management feel about certain subjects-I think RQ and his numeracy and the serious promotion of STEM subjects and careers (see the journal.ie) while language courses at primary level are cut cause the disparity.