Apt timer - light always on

CountingCrows

Hello,

Had an APT timer (like this) fitted last night for the immersion heater. It seems to be working correctly however the indicator light is constantly on, even when switched to off. The instructions say the light indicates power to the appliance. By 'appliance' does that mean the actual timer or the immersion heater?

Doom

CountingCrows wrote: »

Hello,

Had an APT timer (like this) fitted last night for the immersion heater. It seems to be working correctly however the indicator light is constantly on, even when switched to off. The instructions say the light indicates power to the appliance. By appliance does that mean the actual timer or the immersion heater?

Was it fitted by a "competent" person?

CountingCrows

Doom wrote: »

Was it fitted by a "competent" person?

Yes but don't think electrician is his primary trade. Doesn't seem right, the indicator light on even when it's off?

tomdempsey200

the feed and switched live are mixed up

Sleeper12

Not a "competent" person so.
:-(

Bruthal

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

Not a "competent" person so.
:-(

He might be competent at plumbing

Sleeper12

Every plumber should know how to do this. It's very basic & a plumber just doing call outs would be replacing 2 to 4 elements per month. Sometimes the timer will need to be replaced.

We were thought to wire an immersion, timer, pull cord (32 years ago) at the very start of our training. "sink the black".

Any plumber should know that a pull cord switch, cooker switch, immersion switch with the light on when it is in the off position is wired wrong.

The person that wired this be they plumber, electrician or handyman is not competent person.

adrian92

I am inclined to concur with earlier comments - unless the timer is faulty (unlikely , in my view unless it was an old one, even then unlikely). It looks like , in the first instance, the wiring to the timer is incorrect . Suggest you get someone (else) to check how timer is wired

Bruthal

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

Every plumber should know how to do this. It's very basic & a plumber just doing call outs would be replacing 2 to 4 elements per month. Sometimes the timer will need to be replaced.

We were thought to wire an immersion, timer, pull cord (32 years ago) at the very start of our training. "sink the black".

Any plumber should know that a pull cord switch, cooker switch, immersion switch with the light on when it is in the off position is wired wrong.

The person that wired this be they plumber, electrician or handyman is not competent person.

The point is, what is a competent person? You think someone who can't wire a timer is incompetent? What if he is a competent carpenter? Can a competent person pipe a shower? According to you only a competent plumber can.

Sink the black? I think a competent person would confirm, not just connect according to brain training. Or else take up snooker.

Bruthal

adrian92 wrote: »

I am inclined to concur with earlier comments - unless the timer is faulty (unlikely , in my view unless it was an old one, even then unlikely). It looks like , in the first instance, the wiring to the timer is incorrect . Suggest you get someone (else) to check how timer is wired

Its highly likely the supply and switch wires are mixed up.

It would then be likely that the timer is not in fact working correctly. The clock would probably stop when the timer switches off the immersion.

CountingCrows

Qualified electrician calling tomorrow to sort it out.

Sleeper12

I believe the new electric regulations using the term competent person, they are talking about the person being competent enough to wire a plug, switch, timer, pull cord, electric shower etc. Obviously some people are competent at other things but if they are not competent at the electric job in hand then it is illegal for them to be doing it. For example the guy that wired in the timer for the OP.

President Obama seems very competent to me but I wouldn't be asking his advice on how to wire in a timer.

This is what the new law is all about.
It's not that complicated. If this still confuses you try phone the governing body (safety Ireland I think). They had a website but I can't find it now. I rang them almost a year ago now and they were able to explain in simple language who is aloud work on what.

Bruthal

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

.

This is what the new law is all about.

Eh no, the new law is about one single thing, exchequer revenue.

It's not that complicated. If this still confuses you try phone the governing body (safety Ireland I think).

Yea, a competent person can fit sockets, light switches etc, yet a fully qualified electrician can't swap an MCB. Safety my arse.

I rang them almost a year ago now and they were able to explain in simple language who is aloud work on what.

A qualified electrician is what I see as a competent person for electrical work. But like I said, they see it in terms of revenue.

Bruthal

CountingCrows wrote: »

Qualified electrician calling tomorrow to sort it out.

Should be sorted no problem then. Simple fix most likely with swap of wires.

tomdempsey200

Bruthal wrote: »

The point is, what is a competent person? You think someone who can't wire a timer is incompetent? What if he is a competent carpenter? Can a competent person pipe a shower? According to you only a competent plumber can.

Sink the black? I think a competent person would confirm, not just connect according to brain training. Or else take up snooker.

"sink the black" is the problem

people sometimes assume they know something

a lot of new immersion heaters are sink= brown

you have to check them

Bruthal

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

"sink the black" is the problem

people sometimes assume they know something

a lot of new immersion heaters are sink= brown and you have to check them

Yes. A few immersions wrongly connected due to that I'd say.

tomdempsey200

Bruthal wrote: »

Yes. A few immersions wrongly connected due to that I'd say.

it's only a little thing

but there's a lot of little things to simple jobs like showers and immersions

whether it be confirming the sink/bath on an immersion...

a customer notice adjacent to an rcd...

the purpose of an isolating switch...

I'm sure tpm1 is beginning to realise by now that he doesn't know
quite as much as he first assumed

Sleeper12

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

"sink the black" is the problem

people sometimes assume they know something

a lot of new immersion heaters are sink= brown

you have to check them

But most are black / sink.

Again a competent electrician, plumber etc will check their work before they leave the job. So sink the black shouldn't contribute to any immersion being wrongly wired if the tradesman checks their own work afterwards.

I guess it's different for the lads who only ever worked on sites but all of my work is call out. I get paid for one call out. I don't get paid to go back a second time to rectify something I did yesterday. I don't like working for free so I learned a long, long time ago to check your work and then check it again.

Bruthal

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

it's only a little thing

but there's a lot of little things to simple jobs like showers and immersions

whether it be confirming the sink/bath on an immersion...

a customer notice adjacent to an rcd...

the purpose of an isolating switch...

I'm sure tpm1 is beginning to realise by now that he doesn't know
quite as much as he first assumed

Was giving impression he fully installed showers. Now seems just does the plumbing.

If immersion neutral is mixed up with sink or bath, the stat can be bypassed and both elements come on in series.

Bruthal

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

But most are black / sink.

Again a competent electrician, plumber etc will check their work before they leave the job. So sink the black shouldn't contribute to any immersion being wrongly wired if the tradesman checks their own work afterwards.

I guess it's different for the lads who only ever worked on sites but all of my work is call out. I get paid for one call out. I don't get paid to go back a second time to rectify something I did yesterday. I don't like working for free so I learned a long, long time ago to check your work and then check it again.

That's where you and I differ. I never managed to become mistake free.

Sleeper12

Bruthal your statement that I claimed to fully install showers is untrue. If you go back over any of my comments on any thread you won't find me claiming that. I have never worked on a fusebox. Most of my work is replacing & repairing showers. For a full information I bring a reci electrician. I have said I've been trained by triton, Aqualisa & mira for repairs & installation. For the manufacturer the plumbing is the hard part. ( I'm not claiming that to be true) but they have more call backs because it's not plumbed properly. For example someone fitting a triton T80 without testing the water pressure. Or my last job today a triton t90xr connected to the mains. I drove back from balbriggan soaked from that one. I've seen lots of power showers with the hot & cold mixed up, the shower at the wrong end of the bath. The list goes on & on.

The reason the manufacturer sees the electrictricans job as easy (or not a problem for them is they say it must meet local electrical laws. They are vague on cable size etc.

Anyway I'm not going back and forward all night we need to find common ground (on another thread we agreed a fair wage for a fair days work, so to speak. We do agree on some things). I'm only replying now to say you were mistaken about my claiming to do full installs without an electrician.

Bruthal

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

Bruthal your statement that I claimed to fully install showers is untrue. If you go back over any of my comments on any thread you won't find me claiming that. I have never worked on a fusebox. Most of my work is replacing & repairing showers. For a full information I bring a reci electrician. I have said I've been trained by triton, Aqualisa & mira for repairs & installation. For the manufacturer the plumbing is the hard part. ( I'm not claiming that to be true) but they have more call backs because it's not plumbed properly. For example someone fitting a triton T80 without testing the water pressure. Or my last job today a triton t90xr connected to the mains. I drove back from balbriggan soaked from that one. I've seen lots of power showers with the hot & cold mixed up, the shower at the wrong end of the bath. The list goes on & on.

The reason the manufacturer sees the electrictricans job as easy (or not a problem for them is they say it must meet local electrical laws. They are vague on cable size etc.

Anyway I'm not going back and forward all night we need to find common ground (on another thread we agreed a fair wage for a fair days work, so to speak. We do agree on some things). I'm only replying now to say you were mistaken about my claiming to do full installs without an electrician.

I used the phrase "impression". I didn't really say you claimed anything.

You said last week you install, repair and replace up to 1000 showers a year. That gives a slight impression that you install them yourself.

No big deal, it was just the impression I was getting.

Sleeper12

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

must be mental busy

that's about 5 every working day

I said I'm wouldn't go back and forth all night & yet here I am again.
Installing a shower doesn't necessarily mean working on a fusebox. Usually I install the shower and the electrictrican either works back from the pull cord or at times I'd run cable to the fuseboad & he'd wire it to the rcbo though this is rare.

5 showers a day would not be mad busy. We average 1 full instruction per week. A replacement takes 45 minutes or less & a repair usually takes 20 minutes. I cover bray to balbriggan. I'll go further info wicklow or into dundalk but charge extra. I usually spend longer driving to a job than actually working there. As I say I check & recheck every job I do. 1 call out. It's nearly a 2 hour round trip from my house to bray. It'd kill me to have to make a free visit because I didn't check my work properly
The longest day I had was 9 showers & some days I only have 2 or 3. I work 6 days every week & some Sunday's too when very busy. Also being self employed I don't take 4 weeks holidays, usually 2 weeks spread over the year. I don't work Christmas day or Stephens day. Outside of that if the work is there I'll take it

Long story short iit's not mad busy. They are mostly call outs

2011

Lets stop all of the personal stuff and stay on topic.
Thanks.

CountingCrows

Electrician called and the new timer is also faulty! Apparently it was wired correctly. Timer #3 due on Tuesday.......

2011

CountingCrows wrote: »

Electrician called and the new timer is also faulty! Apparently it was wired correctly. Timer #3 due on Tuesday.......

I am not really a fan of APT timers. They never seem to last.

IMHO you would be better off with a digital timer.
These are more reliable and offer extra handy features such as a boost function.

Sleeper12

2011 wrote: »

I am not really a fan of APT timers. They never seem to last.

IMHO you would be better off with a digital timer.
These are more reliable and offer extra handy features such as a boost function.

I totally agree. I have a sangamo digital timer. The boost button means you'll never leave the immersion on overnight by mistake. A must if you have teenagers!
God forbid, worse still if your thermostat is not working. Then you'd be listening to banging pipes, gurgling water & wondering why you have lukewarm water coming out of the cold tap!
:-)

Bruthal

All them mechanical timers are at bit crude really. The one on my gas heating failed early enough
Made a count back type one from 1 to 7 hours selectable then, which was used for couple years. Lightwave-rf setup on it now which so far works very well.

Bruthal

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

I totally agree. I have a sangamo digital timer. The boost button means you'll never leave the immersion on overnight by mistake. A must if you have teenagers!
God forbid, worse still if your thermostat is not working. Then you'd be listening to banging pipes, gurgling water & wondering why you have lukewarm water coming out of the cold tap!
:-)

If someone can sit in a house through a boiling cylinder only to wonder why cold tap dispensing is a little warm, then their senses are a little subdued:)

Sleeper12

Alas Bruthal there are plenty out there.
My wife would tell you in her childhood days (1970s) they would wake up in the middle of the night with what sounded like the house was going to explode. They'd dash to the bathroom & kitchen & turn on all the taps to release the pressure. Obviously this didn't happen every night or anywhere near it but happened often enough that they all remember it (she has 6 brothers and sisters). Her older sister got blamed every time. What her dad didn't know was that, that wasn't normal. Didn't seem to know that there is a thermostat & it was broken. He was a director of a company so you would think he'd know better. I guess they were just different times.
I still smile whenever any of her family bring this childhood memory up. :-)

Bruthal

It's actually possible to connect immersion flex incorrectly at the switch and bypass the immersion stat. Ends up at 1.2kw with both elements in series. Never seen it happen though.

Sleeper12

Have you any idea how it would need to be wired for this to happen? If each element is 3.5kw & you are saying it "

Ends up at 1.2kw" are you sending the same live to both elements? If its a stupid guess please don't laugh.

Bruthal

Yea the neutral of flex into bath terminal of switch for example
And bath wire of flex into neutral terminal of switch.

Select bath on switch and bath works properly although polarity is reversed.

Select sink though, and both elements on in series, with stat out of circuit.

2011

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

Have you any idea how it would need to be wired for this to happen?

Do the maths.

Remember the power = VI (taking the power factor to be unity)

As V is fixed the power is directly portional to the current.
But the current is inversely proportional to the resistance.
If both elements are connected in series the resistance increases, so the current decreases and the power decreases.

Sleeper12

Got ya. thanks for the reply. And thanks Bruthal too.

Bruthal

Yea I didnt notice the second part of the question you asked as i was replying on the phone. 2011 answered that anyway.

Its all just as a matter of interest, but here is a rough drawing of the circuit incorrectly connected as I described. You might be able to see the circuit via both elements in series, and the stat gets bypassed, when sink is selected as per diagram. Blue is connected to bath terminal, brown to neutral, black to sink (for black sink brown bath flex).

Select bath and that works properly.


And correctly connected.

Sleeper12

Bruthal wrote: »

Yea I didnt notice the second part of the question you asked as i was replying on the phone. 2011 answered that anyway.

Its all just as a matter of interest, but here is a rough drawing of the circuit incorrectly connected as I described. You might be able to see the circuit via both elements in series, and the stat gets bypassed, when sink is selected as per diagram. Blue is connected to bath terminal, brown to neutral, black to sink (for black sink brown bath flex).

Select bath and that works properly.


And correctly connected.

The diagram helped a lot. Thanks

Bruthal

The ms paint is handy for some things:)

Robbie.G

Bruthal wrote: »

It's actually possible to connect immersion flex incorrectly at the switch and bypass the immersion stat. Ends up at 1.2kw with both elements in series. Never seen it happen though.

What I have come across lately is where a hortsmann e15 timer or similar is used some people are removing the dual switch and replacing directly with timer connecting both elements together in the switch.

tomdempsey200

Robbie.G wrote: »

What I have come across lately is where a hortsmann e15 timer or similar is used some people are removing the dual switch and replacing directly with timer connecting both elements together in the switch.

they won't be long getting called back with problems

Bruthal

Probably overloading the flex neutral a bit as well.

tomdempsey200

Bruthal wrote: »

Probably overloading the flex neutral a bit as well.

and they're not suitable as a switch replacement anyhow

even if you connect one

Bruthal

You'd have hot water for the sink and bath at the same time at least...
not really, in case anyone thinks I'm serious