"Permanent Grassland" on SFP form

Username John

Hello all,

When submitting my SFP form, I noticed there was 2 designations of the grassland on my place.
"Permanent grassland" & something like "2 year old grass" (Apologies, I cant remember the exact term)

Why are they assigning such designations?

Can anyone tell me are there implications of land being termed "Permanent Grassland"?

Lets say in a few years time, I want to change this "Permanent Grassland" to tillage, will this cause any issues for me?

Maybe this all ties in with the new SFP process, and this "greening" option I am hearing about.

sheebadog

Username John wrote: »

Hello all,

When submitting my SFP form, I noticed there was 2 designations of the grassland on my place.
"Permanent grassland" & something like "2 year old grass" (Apologies, I cant remember the exact term)

Why are they assigning such designations?

Can anyone tell me are there implications of land being termed "Permanent Grassland"?

Lets say in a few years time, I want to change this "Permanent Grassland" to tillage, will this cause any issues for me?

Maybe this all ties in with the new SFP process, and this "greening" option I am hearing about.

Permanent grassland is where you submitted "grass" on the application form for a good few years.

Rules are coming in place where you may have to leave it in grass.
My advice is to plough next year.

Username John

sheebadog wrote: »

Permanent grassland is where you submitted "grass" on the application form for a good few years.

Rules are coming in place where you may have to leave it in grass.
My advice is to plough next year.

Yeah - that's what I was afraid of. :mad:

I don't understand this though, what difference does it make to them, of its grass or Barley or whatever?

Why would they try to tie you to grass?

sheebadog

Username John wrote: »

Yeah - that's what I was afraid of. :mad:

I don't understand this though, what difference does it make to them, of its grass or Barley or whatever?

Why would they try to tie you to grass?

Too much mono cropping in continental Europe.

paddysdream

Think its gonna be a national quota for permanent grassland ie any one individual farmers percentage will not matter.

Permanent grassland is land which has been soley in grass(reseeding doesn't break the term)for either 5 or 7 years.Can't rem. exactly which lenght of time they settled on.

Username John

paddysdream wrote: »

Think its gonna be a national quota for permanent grassland ie any one individual farmers percentage will not matter.

Permanent grassland is land which has been soley in grass(reseeding doesn't break the term)for either 5 or 7 years.Can't rem. exactly which lenght of time they settled on.

Does that mean there wouldn't be any restriction, it's just statistical data they're gathering?

(I kinda doubt this, but maybe I am being too cynical)

paddysdream

Username John wrote: »

Does that mean there wouldn't be any restriction, it's just statistical data they're gathering?

(I kinda doubt this, but maybe I am being too cynical)

Imagine like a national quota.We as a country have to keep at least 75%(?) of the land declared in 2015 as permanent grassland in grass each of the following years.
Unless there is a big swing to tillage in Leitrim,West Cork and Mayo then it shouldn't be a major problem.
Think thats the gist of it but stand to be corrected.

5live

Username John wrote: »

Yeah - that's what I was afraid of. :mad:

I don't understand this though, what difference does it make to them, of its grass or Barley or whatever?

Why would they try to tie you to grass?

There is a rule in or coming in that no more than 5% of permanent grassland may be converted to tillage in any one year. I'm unclear if this means country wide or on one individual farm atm.

I think its part of the greening section of the new rules, to help protect biodiversity or somesuch.

blue5000

Could also be for the glas scheme, think there might be a payment for species rich grassland. Other possibility is carbon sequestration, ploughed land releases CO2 into the atmosphere, whereas permanant grass sequesters carbon.

paddysdream

blue5000 wrote: »

Could also be for the glas scheme, think there might be a payment for species rich grassland. Other possibility is carbon sequestration, ploughed land releases CO2 into the atmosphere, whereas permanant grass sequesters carbon.

Almost certain its for the national quota re. permanent grassland.

Unsure if the thinking behind it(if there is any!) is more aimed at mainland european monoculture or some green,carbon,feel good,hare brained notion.

paddysdream

5live wrote: »

There is a rule in or coming in that no more than 5% of permanent grassland may be converted to tillage in any one year. I'm unclear if this means country wide or on one individual farm atm.

I think its part of the greening section of the new rules, to help protect biodiversity or somesuch.

As far as I know its on a national basis.And yes ,believe its a part of the greening measures for a "greener"CAP

Farrell

blue5000 wrote: »

Could also be for the glas scheme, think there might be a payment for species rich grassland. Other possibility is carbon sequestration, ploughed land releases CO2 into the atmosphere, whereas permanant grass sequesters carbon.

Does this mean there could be restrictions in reseeding sometime in the future

Conmaicne Mara

Farrell wrote: »

Does this mean there could be restrictions in reseeding sometime in the future

It'll be like the spraying, all done at night anymore

Farrell

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

It'll be like the spraying, all done at night anymore

Go organic so

paddysdream

Farrell wrote: »

Does this mean there could be restrictions in reseeding sometime in the future

Shouldn't think so.

At the moment anyways,ploughing grassland and reseeding it does not count as being a break in "permanent pasture" ie field in grass 4 years and you decide to reseed it for some reason then the following year its 5 years in grass.

On the other hand ,a field that was 20 years in grass and you plough,sow crop and then reseed with grass in year 2 is seen as starting from zero ie it will be 5 years before its considered "permanent" grassland.

Farrell

paddysdream wrote: »

Shouldn't think so.

At the moment anyways,ploughing grassland and reseeding it does not count as being a break in "permanent pasture" ie field in grass 4 years and you decide to reseed it for some reason then the following year its 5 years in grass.

On the other hand ,a field that was 20 years in grass and you plough,sow crop and then reseed with grass in year 2 is seen as starting from zero ie it will be 5 years before its considered "permanent" grassland.

Ok, but are we releasing carbon out of the earth, everytime we plough even old permanent pastures?

Oldtree

Farrell wrote: »

Ok, but are we releasing carbon out of the earth, everytime we plough even old permanent pastures?

Yes, but I am more familiar with it in tree terms. There are lots of papers on it but I managed to find a quote from Mr. Liam Kinsella, agricultural inspector, specialist farm services at the Irish Agriculture and Climate Change Discussion Wednesday, 12 November 2008 where he quantifies it:

Reference has been made to the fact that if one ploughs up grassland to change over to different crops, one will release carbon. It is my calculation that the carbon dioxide released from a hectare of land newly converted to tillage is approximately the equivalent of the emissions from a suckler cow.

but then says:

Reducing the number of suckler cows and making a hectare of land available for tillage do not have a major effect on overall emissions.

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/Debates%20Authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/committeetakes/CLJ2008111200003

Username John

I was just reading through the CAP2015 Direct Payments doc and I found this

Permanent Grassland
Permanent grassland is defined as land that has not been included in the crop-rotation of a holding for five
years or more. The obligation to maintain ‘permanent grassland’ is managed primarily at national level.
Ireland must ensure that the ratio of permanent grassland to total agricultural area shall be maintained and
that this ratio shall not decrease by more than 5% compared with 2012.
While there is no obligation imposed at the level of individual holding, if a decrease in the ratio of more
than 5% occurs, individual farmers will be obliged to reconvert land back to permanent grassland.

Just said I'd stick it up here when I found it...

paddysdream

Thats seems to mean we have to keep a minimum of 95% of the permanent grass area declared in 2012.
Shouldn't be a major problem what with the swing to more dairying and the poor grain prices this summer.

Also it will be a national quota.Hard to see how they will enforce reseeding if we happen to stray over the limit.Will it be farmers who have less than the 95% from 2012 on their own holdings or everyone?

5live

paddysdream wrote: »

Thats seems to mean we have to keep a minimum of 95% of the permanent grass area declared in 2012.
Shouldn't be a major problem what with the swing to more dairying and the poor grain prices this summer.

Also it will be a national quota.Hard to see how they will enforce reseeding if we happen to stray over the limit.Will it be farmers who have less than the 95% from 2012 on their own holdings or everyone?

It will be the farmers that reduced by more than 5% who will have to reseed.

And you can decrease grassland by 5% each year without penalty.