Is the quality of European Elections always this poor?

Eurovisionmad

Hey everyone, first time voter here, I'm eligible to vote in Ireland South and I was watching the RTÉ Prime Time debate the day before last and I was struck by just how irrelevant the whole thing was to the EU. Firstly the piece before the debate centred almost exclusively on medical cards and water meters, both of which are total domestic issues and simply aren't even close to the remit of the EP. Almost all of the candidates said that essentially they would try and bring back as many jobs and as much money from the EU for their constituents which is grand but surely that's expected of every MEP anyway? Most of the rest of the debate continued on an array of domestic issues including once again medical cards, the arrest or Gerry Adams, women in the home (?!) and pylons. The only time they ventured vaguely into European affairs was on the bondholder issue and your man Peter O'Loughlin who favoured tighter immigration controls in the EU but they moved on extremely quickly from that. Richard Cahill even managed to say the Council Of Europe was the 4th arm of the EU and not one candidate nor presenter took him up on this blatant mistake.

This point I'm (very slowly) trying to get to is that we know barely any of their opinions on real EU matters, not one of their websites nor literature mentions their positions on things like Turkish ascension, "Fortress Europe", Federal Europe and a common EU energy market. Very few of them have mentioned who they'll be voting for as comission head and what s(he) stands for. I find it so exasperating to see this whole election be run as essentially popularity poll for domestic parties and their stance on domestic issues.

Scofflaw

They haven't previously been quite this poor, it's true. One reason, I suspect, is that a fair number of the candidates this time aren't incumbents, and three of those who are incumbents are recent replacements for retiring long-standing MEPs. So there's actually very little European experience in the mix.

Add to that the fact that there's still a bubbling discontent with national politics, and a government that's had to engage with austerity policies they had less than full control over, and you get a classic second-order election which is all about a judgement on the national parties.

No excuse for the "Council of Europe" bit, though.

cordially,
Scofflaw

gandalf

I think the level of debate this time has been particularly poor. It consists of crud like "Declaration of War", "lets punish the government" and discussion of issues that have nothing to do with Europe.

I tend to consider using my right to vote very seriously and have in the past frowned on people not using that right however this time around I am seriously wondering if I can vote. The only method I have in choosing who to vote for is to consider who I can't vote for and then voting for the remaining least offensive options? Surely that is no way to exercise a right that people shed blood to obtain less than a century ago?

Calina

Eurovisionmad wrote: »

This point I'm (very slowly) trying to get to is that we know barely any of their opinions on real EU matters, not one of their websites nor literature mentions their positions on things like Turkish ascension, "Fortress Europe", Federal Europe and a common EU energy market. Very few of them have mentioned who they'll be voting for as comission head and what s(he) stands for. I find it so exasperating to see this whole election be run as essentially popularity poll for domestic parties and their stance on domestic issues.

Totally agree with you. This issue has left me with serious problems for that election as I think all bar two of the candidates focused on local issues, and the other two I have no idea how they felt about Europe level specific issues because they didn't really mention them either.

bumper234

The debates this time around have been reduced to petty sniping and attempting to score (minor) hits against each other. Not one of them.impressed me and a couple made me want to turn the tv off after 10 minutes of listening to them. Like a bunch of kids that refuse to grow up.

Scofflaw

I guess the way I wind up deciding that I have to vote is consideration of the fact that while the candidates may not be debating the issues, the issues are still the issues, they're still issues I care about (climate change, environmental regulation, trade, research), and the European Parliament will still consider them whether I vote for one of these lacklustre muppets or not.

And the outcome of the votes in the EP on these issues I care about will depend on the balance of power of the European groups in the Parliament, and that will depend, in turn, on how people vote. The projections suggest a closely balanced EP between the centre-right EPP and the centre-left S&D, with a chunky bunch of wingnuts on the right, so personally I'll be putting votes towards the left.

So I'd say it doesn't really matter who fills the seats - I'm willing to vote on the basis that my vote goes to anonymous lobby fodder to make up the numbers on the green/left side of the house. I'm not really willing to waste a vote on an independent given the poor quality of the individual candidates. I don't know which way Nessa Childers would jump in a vote - I daresay she doesn't either - and she's not impressive enough as an individual for me to give her an individual vote.

resignedly,
Scofflaw

comongethappy

I'm also unsure who to vote for.

Grudgingly it will probably be Deirdre Clune.
As a Wicklow girl I know nothing about her, nor do I care.

Looking at the voting blocks in the EU, the EPP seem closest to where I am at politically, so tactically a vote for Clune gets the EPP another vote button jockey.

(I also think people should remember that SF are part of the communist block in the parliament..... look into that what you will).

Scofflaw

It really needs saying in big letters - "you're not changing the Dáil in the Euro elections, you're changing the European Parliament".

If we vote in 11 Sinn Fein MEPs, we haven't made any change to the Dáil at all. I may not fancy voting Labour this time, but I prefer S&D to the EPP. If I liked ALDE - which luckily I don't - I'd vote FF, and never mind their record in power, because I wouldn't be voting FF into power anywhere by doing so. I would be voting to give ALDE extra representation in the EP, to have more ALDE-ish amendments, to block the things that ALDE blocks, and support the things that ALDE supports.

This is not a national election. It changes no national outcomes. It changes what happens in the EU.

cordially,
Scofflaw

DubVelo

I thought RTE did a spectacularly bad job of steering the debate towards EU level issues. The whole thing was way off topic, the candidates were being asked questions about domestic issues.
I'm finding it really hard to decide who to vote for, I have hardly heard much of a mention about the voting blocks in the Parliament and what they stand for and will have to go educate myself on that.

Not trying to be condescending but I don't think most people will put nearly as much effort into trying to understand what it actually is that the candidates are about, the whole thing is just going to be a big stab in the dark.

Why don't we get an info-pack like when we have a referendum?

PopePalpatine

Another floating voter here, I'm also pretty in the dark about what the candidates will do if elected to Europe. At this point I'm leaning towards voting for Labour purely because they're a member of the SPE bloc - but I don't want Gilmore to see this as rewarding what they've done so far.

Scofflaw

DubVelo wrote: »

I thought RTE did a spectacularly bad job of steering the debate towards EU level issues. The whole thing was way off topic, the candidates were being asked questions about domestic issues.
I'm finding it really hard to decide who to vote for, I have hardly heard much of a mention about the voting blocks in the Parliament and what they stand for and will have to go educate myself on that.

Not trying to be condescending but I don't think most people will put nearly as much effort into trying to understand what it actually is that the candidates are about, the whole thing is just going to be a big stab in the dark.

Why don't we get an info-pack like when we have a referendum?

If I were going to be unkind, I would say because we've had well over five years to find out...?

You're right, though, it's not as if the parties make any great effort to tell you, or the media.

unkindly,
Scofflaw

Eurovisionmad

I think the media have also been so complicit in this, RTÉ isn't the only outlet who's been framing this in a domestic way. I highly doubt most people would be able to name any parties European grouping, it's slightly exasperating to see people voting against a party because of the housing crisis or water charges when they would totally support EPP or S&D in the EP, and they'll be the first to give out about the "undemocratic EU" while staying so willfully ignorant of its' politics!

Eurovisionmad

Oh my god, Richard Cahill did it again on Vincent Browne! He said the council of Europe is part of the EU! Vincent took him up on it and he brushed it aside as "matters of title", how can this man be allowed run for the EU!

nesf

First election into an unpopular Government's run. Now, honestly all Governments are unpopular in some sections of the public but this Government inherited a mess that was never going to be quick to resolve but never managed to sell that truth to the public and is facing their ire right now.

These kinds of elections are populist bloodbaths moreso than most. Things are worse this time around because the average person really doesn't care about the EU except when it comes back to fixing our current economy, so everyone is selling local stuff when really they'll be able to do feck all about it. Throw in your standard anti-EU rhetoric toned up to match the belligerent mood and add in a motely bunch of Independents who seem very unsure what exactly they are running for and sure you have a mess.


The thing is, honestly I'm surprised it's been going this well. I was expecting far worse anti-establishment nonsense than what we're getting which isn't that far from the usual European election. The main difference is in the larger party candidates who have to take a more local tack than usual.

Scofflaw

nesf wrote: »

First election into an unpopular Government's run. Now, honestly all Governments are unpopular in some sections of the public but this Government inherited a mess that was never going to be quick to resolve but never managed to sell that truth to the public and is facing their ire right now.

These kinds of elections are populist bloodbaths moreso than most. Things are worse this time around because the average person really doesn't care about the EU except when it comes back to fixing our current economy, so everyone is selling local stuff when really they'll be able to do feck all about it. Throw in your standard anti-EU rhetoric toned up to match the belligerent mood and add in a motely bunch of Independents who seem very unsure what exactly they are running for and sure you have a mess.


The thing is, honestly I'm surprised it's been going this well. I was expecting far worse anti-establishment nonsense than what we're getting which isn't that far from the usual European election. The main difference is in the larger party candidates who have to take a more local tack than usual.

If you're of the right mindset, I suspect that the prospect of 3, maybe 4, Sinn Fein MEPs is a quite sufficiently radical change. And I think the ready availability of SF as an 'anti-establishment' alternative is where a lot of the anti-establishment feeling has gone - despite which I think that even for those who could never vote for them, they're very much more normalised as a political option than they were.

Look at it it this way - UKIP are expected to get roughly a quarter to a third of the UK's MEP seats, and that's being touted as revolutionary. Sinn Fein are pretty much expected to get the same proportion of Irish seats, but it's not being treated as revolutionary in the same way at all.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Conmaicne Mara

Caught up with the Midlands North West constituency debate yesterday on Player. Fay & Fitzsimmons were by a long way the worst candidates I've ever seen in any level of election. They were genuinely a waste of air time. You could argue the case for the others in the second debate as at least they got their point across. Certainly neither Ming nor Mullen belonged in the second debate, on debate quality terms. Byrne was a liability for FF, not that I'm unhappy about that.

Results of local and Euro elections will be very interesting this time around.

nesf

Scofflaw wrote: »

If you're of the right mindset, I suspect that the prospect of 3, maybe 4, Sinn Fein MEPs is a quite sufficiently radical change. And I think the ready availability of SF as an 'anti-establishment' alternative is where a lot of the anti-establishment feeling has gone - despite which I think that even for those who could never vote for them, they're very much more normalised as a political option than they were.

Look at it it this way - UKIP are expected to get roughly a quarter to a third of the UK's MEP seats, and that's being touted as revolutionary. Sinn Fein are pretty much expected to get the same proportion of Irish seats, but it's not being treated as revolutionary in the same way at all.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Very true in terms of SF, I'm thinking of the other, especially smaller, "No" parties trying to out-do each other to get some of that vote.

Eurovisionmad

Ended up voting for S&D (emphasis on the European party) as at least I know what I'm voting for, but the quality of this election has been pathetic, no individual, neither Phil Predergast nor anyone else, deserved my vote.

Frank Lee Midere

Scofflaw wrote: »

If you're of the right mindset, I suspect that the prospect of 3, maybe 4, Sinn Fein MEPs is a quite sufficiently radical change. And I think the ready availability of SF as an 'anti-establishment' alternative is where a lot of the anti-establishment feeling has gone - despite which I think that even for those who could never vote for them, they're very much more normalised as a political option than they were.

Look at it it this way - UKIP are expected to get roughly a quarter to a third of the UK's MEP seats, and that's being touted as revolutionary. Sinn Fein are pretty much expected to get the same proportion of Irish seats, but it's not being treated as revolutionary in the same way at all.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Not one of the more working class part of my extended family is voting anything other than the shinners. My middle class cousins are undecided. From nowhere in a few years. I think UKIP might be similar in the UK.

Scofflaw

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Not one of the more working class part of my extended family is voting anything other than the shinners. My middle class cousins are undecided. From nowhere in a few years. I think UKIP might be similar in the UK.

I'm not sure about that. Sinn Fein is seen as a genuine alternative at the national level - they've been around for years, have always been a voting alternative up north, and are currently in government in the north - whereas there's no evidence so far that that's the case for UKIP. Yes, they're doing well here in mid-term second-order elections in a recessionary environment against a weak government, but their most recent by-election vote was lacklustre.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Frank Lee Midere

Scofflaw wrote: »

I'm not sure about that. Sinn Fein is seen as a genuine alternative at the national level - they've been around for years, have always been a voting alternative up north, and are currently in government in the north - whereas there's no evidence so far that that's the case for UKIP. Yes, they're doing well here in mid-term second-order elections in a recessionary environment against a weak government, but their most recent by-election vote was lacklustre.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Yes but Sinn Fein were pariahs about a decade ago in the South. The people I know who support them are not going back to labour and not to FF either ( FG and the Greens were never an option) and that might be the case with UKIP. Too early to tell, it depends on how well their councilors actually govern. Sinn Fein, who I would never vote for, are great local representatives.

Dapics

Only a few MEP's are worth there salt:

Harkin
McGuinness
Kelly

&

thats it.

Of the new one's, only Ni Riadh, Ming and Harris inspire some hope. The worst of all is Clune, as to why, well the clue is in her name, just add on less.

Scofflaw

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Yes but Sinn Fein were pariahs about a decade ago in the South. The people I know who support them are not going back to labour and not to FF either ( FG and the Greens were never an option) and that might be the case with UKIP. Too early to tell, it depends on how well their councilors actually govern. Sinn Fein, who I would never vote for, are great local representatives.

All of that is exactly what I think isn't the case for UKIP. To be honest, I think they have just two electoral assets - Farage, and Cameron. What's visible of the party beyond Farage is a wasteland of swivel-eyed loonies - and to transfrom themselves into the kind of political machine that can compete in his absence would be to lose the main plank of the party's appeal.

UKIP are doing more or less the opposite of SF - they're riding a wave of dissatisfaction on the charisma of one guy.

cordially,
Scofflaw

nesf

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Yes but Sinn Fein were pariahs about a decade ago in the South. The people I know who support them are not going back to labour and not to FF either ( FG and the Greens were never an option) and that might be the case with UKIP. Too early to tell, it depends on how well their councilors actually govern. Sinn Fein, who I would never vote for, are great local representatives.

Sinn Fein are still pariahs in many areas. If you analyse their vote you can find very dramatic differences between different areas. Compare Kerry North to Kerry South for instance where Kerry North has long had a solid SF presence and the south very resistant to them. They're making progress hand over fist but still suffer from being transfer-phobic and in our electoral system for any party to have a significant presence in the Dáil (over 20-25) you need to attract transfers.

Where SF have a presence I don't think anything short of a resumption of the Troubles will lose them their seats. They have very carefully built up those TD seats from local political work and have a strong grassroots presence. They may lose a seat for a term but they'll be back. Where their core issue seems to be is making progress outside of those strongholds, especially in smaller rural constituencies where they're nowhere near taking a seat in most of them (this has also been Labour's perennial problem).