Rights when rental home for sale

Gatica

I would like to know our rights as tenants as our home has been put up for sale. We had a 1 year contract when we moved in, we stayed on without specifically notifying landlord of Part 4 tenancy. We'll be living there 3 years this mid-July.

We're on good terms with our landlord, he's informed us the house is up for auction end of June. It did not seem like a request to vacate.

If a sale is agreed, what notice can we expect and from whom? Depending on the date of notice, we'd like a 56 or 84 days' notice, as appropriate.
Would the new owners be bound to this or can they give a shorter notice?

We also paid a security deposit. Who do we get that back from? If we're allowed to stay on, the current landlord will no longer be owner and may decline to refund a deposit on a property he no longer owns, and since new owners will not have received a deposit directly from us, may also do the same. What can we expect?

Would appreciate any views. PRTB/Citizens info doesn't seem to cover these corner cases on their site.

The_Conductor

Unless the house is being sold for cash- any new purchaser will require vacant possession of the property before they can draw down a mortgage.

You need to liaise with the landlord. He needs vacant possession by the end of June. He doesn't necessarily have to give you written notice to vacate the property- he does however have to give you a clear instruction, one way or the other.

Your landlord, is the person with whom you have a contract. If he sells the house- it is not the duty of the purchaser to have a contract with you- and indeed, if they are relying on a mortgage to finance the purchase- they will be unable to draw down the finance to go through with the purchase- until such time as you have vacated the property.

Your deposit- is with the current landlord- no-one else- you need to discuss this with him/her.

If the date of the auction is at the end of June- presumably, you will have vacated the property, prior to the auction date.

Gatica

Thanks, good to know that they'd need it empty before draw-down, as we'll be seeking full legal notice to move or an agreed compensation.
Will need to be up-front with LL then about the deposit, to be clear.

The_Conductor wrote: »

He doesn't necessarily have to give you written notice to vacate the property- he does however have to give you a clear instruction, one way or the other.

I don't think you're right with respect to this. According to www.threshold.ie/advice/ending-a-tenancy/how-your-landlord-may-end-your-tenancy/:

Notice of termination must be in writing. (Email, text, verbal notice do not suffice by law) and notices may issued in a number of ways:

• Delivered Personally
• Leaving it at the address where the person ordinarily resides
• By post (no special requirement for registered post)
• By affixing to the dwelling

We would personally accept sufficient initial verbal/text/email notice, as long as it's sufficient time and does not impact on our rights. We'd still want it in writing with dates though, as wouldn't want to be in a position of a LL accusing us to PRTB of vacating early/without notice.

Gatica

The_Conductor wrote: »

If the date of the auction is at the end of June- presumably, you will have vacated the property, prior to the auction date.

Oh, and no, we will not be vacating before then (apart from the fact that he's not asked us to move).

The_Conductor

The PRTB accept e-mails and txt messages as instructions/directions- and they are the statutory body governing tenancies. They do not insist that it has to be in writing. This comes up regularly- and indeed- if you look at their cases (which are available online)- you will see this is the case.

Be very careful assuming that Threshold advice is the letter of the law- some of their information is seriously circumspect. Consider it guidance by all means- but its not definitive.

Pro Hoc Vice

The_Conductor wrote: »

The PRTB accept e-mails and txt messages as instructions/directions- and they are the statutory body governing tenancies. They do not insist that it has to be in writing. This comes up regularly- and indeed- if you look at their cases (which are available online)- you will see this is the case.

Be very careful assuming that Threshold advice is the letter of the law- some of their information is seriously circumspect. Consider it guidance by all means- but its not definitive.

The information you have given is incorrect a correct notice must be served it matters not to the tenant what the landlord must or must or must not give for all you know the house may be sold with a sitting tenant.

http://www.prtb.ie/dispute-resolution/disputes/sample-notices-of-termination

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/act/pub/0027/sec0006.html#sec6

The_Conductor

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

The information you have given is incorrect a correct notice must be served it matters not to the tenant what the landlord must or must or must not give for all you know the house may be sold with a sitting tenant.

http://www.prtb.ie/dispute-resolution/disputes/sample-notices-of-termination

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/act/pub/0027/sec0006.html#sec6

Its quite unusual for residential property to be sold with sitting tenants- as inevitably, a condition for a purchaser to draw down a mortgage, will be vacant possession of the property. Commercial tenants normally do not vacate a property when its sold- residential ones, in general, do. If a purchaser is funding the purchase from private funds- they do not necessarily need vacant possession as a condition of sale- however, they may still serve notice on the tenant (unless of course they are buying the property as a BTL purchase).

The tenant is entitled to appropriate notice- in this case, as they have been a tenant for over 2 years, but less than 3, the appropriate notice is 56 days (if the requisite notice is not given before the tenant has been resident for 3 years- the notice will then be 84 days, as the tenancy will then have been in place between 3 and 4 years).

The deposit would have to be returned by the current landlord- subject to agreement with the tenant regarding and any relevant deductions.

If the tenant and the landlord agree an earlier vacation date than the statutory amount- it would be agreed prior to the official notice being given.

There is absolutely nothing to stop the tenant agreeing to a shorter notice period- and asking for compensation in lieu of the shorter notice period- it happens regularly.

The PRTB have accepted texts and e-mails as notification mechanisms- the legislation states that the notice has to be directed to the tenant by name, but does not implicitly state that it has to be either posted, or in writing. It is best to have it in writing- which is what the PRTB and Threshold will say- however, its not implicit in the legislation- and other mechanisms have been accepted as valid, at PRTB tribunals.

Pro Hoc Vice

The_Conductor wrote: »

Its quite unusual for residential property to be sold with sitting tenants- as inevitably, a condition for a purchaser to draw down a mortgage, will be vacant possession of the property. Commercial tenants normally do not vacate a property when its sold- residential ones, in general, do. If a purchaser is funding the purchase from private funds- they do not necessarily need vacant possession as a condition of sale- however, they may still serve notice on the tenant (unless of course they are buying the property as a BTL purchase).

The tenant is entitled to appropriate notice- in this case, as they have been a tenant for over 2 years, but less than 3, the appropriate notice is 56 days (if the requisite notice is not given before the tenant has been resident for 3 years- the notice will then be 84 days, as the tenancy will then have been in place between 3 and 4 years).

The deposit would have to be returned by the current landlord- subject to agreement with the tenant regarding and any relevant deductions.

If the tenant and the landlord agree an earlier vacation date than the statutory amount- it would be agreed prior to the official notice being given.

There is absolutely nothing to stop the tenant agreeing to a shorter notice period- and asking for compensation in lieu of the shorter notice period- it happens regularly.

The PRTB have accepted texts and e-mails as notification mechanisms- the legislation states that the notice has to be directed to the tenant by name, but does not implicitly state that it has to be either posted, or in writing. It is best to have it in writing- which is what the PRTB and Threshold will say- however, its not implicit in the legislation- and other mechanisms have been accepted as valid, at PRTB tribunals.

What you said above

You need to liaise with the landlord. He needs vacant possession by the end of June. He doesn't necessarily have to give you written notice to vacate the property- he does however have to give you a clear instruction, one way or the other.

Gatica

The_Conductor wrote: »

It is best to have it in writing- which is what the PRTB and Threshold will say- however, its not implicit in the legislation- and other mechanisms have been accepted as valid, at PRTB tribunals.

as per http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/act/pub/0027/sec0062.html#sec62 :

62.—(1) A notice of termination to be valid shall—

(a) be in writing,

(b) be signed by the landlord or his or her authorised agent or, as appropriate, the tenant,

(c) specify the date of service of it,

(d) be in such form (if any) as may be prescribed,

(e) if the duration of the tenancy is a period of more than 6 months, state (where the termination is by the landlord) the reason for the termination,

(f) specify the termination date, that is to say, the day (stating the month and year in which it falls)—

(i) on which the tenancy will terminate, and

(ii) on or before which (in the case of a termination by the landlord) the tenant must vacate possession of the dwelling concerned, (and indicating that the tenant has the whole of the 24 hours of the termination date to vacate possession),

and

(g) state that any issue as to the validity of the notice or the right of the landlord or tenant, as appropriate, to serve it must be referred to the Board under Part 6 within 28 days from the date of receipt of it.

(2) Subsection (1) is without prejudice to Chapter 4 and section 81 (3) (which specify additional requirements in respect of a tenancy that has been sub-let).

In any case, I'm sure as long as it can be proven that the LL gave appropriate notice it would be accepted. I'm also ok to make plans based on any type of notice. We've not been requested to vacate though.

Same as you, we've been advised to get deposit back from LL with whom we had said agreement. As long as the rest of the our rights stand, I'm not concerned.

Gatica

Unfortunately we did get notice to move out early last week. Advice from solicitor was that while by law they do have to have the property sold before they can lawfully evict tenants, that would only be the case if we actually went to court. If something like that is adjudicated by PRTB, they'd be reasonable, so to speak, and if a Landlord can show proof of his intent to sell, at most you'd gain yourself an extra couple of weeks.
Considering this situation, we're preparing to find another place and to move if we have to. However, on the flip side, we're hoping it's bought by someone wanting to renting out and may allow us to stay on as tenants. Therefore we'd rather it be sold now, while we're living there than move out only to find out some time later it was rented out to someone else by new owners.

We'd also agreed with landlord to allow some viewings for the sale of the property. Initially we thought it would be by appointment but the sales people want to do open house a couple of time a week. We thought we'd be able to agree to one day a week plus some appointments. However, now they've come back saying that it must be 2 days a week plus access to any surveyors! I didn't realise this would turn out into such a circus.

I'd read before that in such circumstances, tenants were able to agree on a cheaper rent with a landlord to compensate for all that hassle.

Any kind of idea what kind of rebate can we request for this? We'd like to be reasonable as we could potentially stay on as tenants as explained above, which also benefits us.

The_Conductor

If they are randomly looking for access- alongside 2 full 'open-days' a week- I'd think asking for a 50% reduction wouldn't be out of the realms of possibility.......

TheDoc

Swings both ways.

I agreed to three days viewing in my last place, and tidied up the apartment and had it looking better then when I moved in. Landlord obviously got some bidding going on with tenants who wanted it, and after the final visit handed me my deposit( wasn't due to move out for another two weeks) and also a few bob extra to thank me for the upkeep and the improvements I made.

Didn't even have to ask.

Sometimes it just pays in spades to go about your business as youd like to have it handled if you were on the flipside. Majority of landlords arn't serial letters, they mostly own one or two properties which they let out, and arn't exactly suit and tie housing solicitors. Sometimes getting legal and banding about rights and this and that can just bite you in the arse to be frank.

Friends are after having a horrible time lately with their house. Got on great with the landlord, and when it came time to move the boys got billy big bollocks and started banding about rights, perceived rights, and sending copy and pastes from Threshold.

Landlord got clearly intimidated by the affair and the severance between the two parties was a lot messier then needed be.

Gatica

We've had a good relationship with our landlord. He's sorted out issues in a timely manner and we've improved the house. We've not threatened the landlord with any kind of legal stuff, only consulted solicitor for our own peace of mind in case we'd be out on our ear. I'm all for keeping a good relationship, but don't want to be taken advantage of either. Knowing ones rights and theirs is a good starting point.
Considering the hassle involved for us, we were weighing up whether to live out our time there hassle-free (no viewings) and just pack up at the end of the notice term or put up with short-term hassle (viewings) but with the potential to stay on.

My issue isn't so much the money as the inconvenience. I have enough to be doing without having to clean and tidy for every viewing. I've done it up til now, but it's just gonna be taking the pi$$ if I've to clean the house more than 2ce a week. Therefore, yes, I do consider it only fair to get money back if I've to do all that work, not rely on the possibility of the landlord having a big heart and wide pocket to reward our good behaviour when we move out.
In addition, we don't know how they're planning on allowing surveyors in, a free-for-all with keys handed out by the agents or supervised visits by either agent or landlord. I certainly can't be sitting there every day to do that. If the former, then there's no knowing how many keys may be out there for our home, and that worries me.