Qadiyanis

AntiBarbie

Hi All,

I am a long time reader of boards.ie but first time poster. I wanted to get some Muslim opinions about Qadiyanis/Ahmadiyyas in Ireland. I know that in certain counties they are banned from calling themselves Muslims and cannot call their place of worship a Mosque. I totally understand and agree with why they are not Muslims and not a part of Islam; so why is their website islamahmadiyya.ie stating that they are a "Muslim Community" who "is dynamic, fast growing international revival movement within Islam"?? There are plans for them to built the biggest mosque in the country along with a school and a huge community. Does anybody see this as a problem? I think Most Irish people don't know enough about Islam (and can barely research that as it is, or are not willing to) to consider that this cult group is most definitely not Islamic. What does the Muslim community think about this? Anybody I know seems to have the attitude 'ah f**k em let em off'. I for one think it will cause huge issues of misconception, slander and damage against real Islam in our innocent little Isle. What gets to me also is that those Ahmadiyyas are the real infidels that so many atheists speak of in their arguments who should be killed for their slander, not Christians, Jews, or Athiests who are openly so and not pretending to be Muslim or being hypocrites. Any feedback appreciated, Thanks guys.

wes

Whoa, calm down there.

While, its true that all other Muslim sects (Sunni, Shia etc) do not consider Ahmadis to be Muslims, they certainly have every right to practice there Religion and call themselves whatever they please.

AntiBarbie

Don't worry Wes I am calm. I am all for tolerance and agree that of course they have the right to practice their religion; but they are not actually Muslim so therefore they do not actually have any right to call themselves Muslim. As you said both Sunni and Shia concur that Ahmadis are not Muslim due to several serious and valid reasons, they are masquerading as Muslims which will inevitably lead to confusion and issues in society, that is my point. Why should they have the right to masquerade?There are bad intentions behind this. Are you Ahmadiya yourself Wes? If so I am not really interested in your answer, this was addressed to Muslims.

wes

No, I am Sunni Muslim. Also, this is a public forum, and anyone can reply to thread, as long as they follow the rules of the forum. Honestly, it seems to me, that your sole purpose is looking to cause trouble.

The simple fact of the matter, is that the Ahmadis can call themselves whatever they please. There a small harmless sect, and it doubtful anyone would confuse them, as there beliefs differ great from Sunni/Shia etc.

Most people don't even know they exist. I only became aware of there existence fairly recently myself. I really don't see how they could cause confusion, as they do tend to be referred to as Ahmadis.

We also live in Ireland, were everyone is guaranteed Religious freedom, and this of course includes Ahmadis.

Personally, I would worry more about the likes of Boko Haram, bringing Islam into disrepute, as opposed to a tiny sect, few people even know exist.

bumper234

AntiBarbie wrote: »

Don't worry Wes I am calm. I am all for tolerance and agree that of course they have the right to practice their religion; but they are not actually Muslim so therefore they do not actually have any right to call themselves Muslim. As you said both Sunni and Shia concur that Ahmadis are not Muslim due to several serious and valid reasons, they are masquerading as Muslims which will inevitably lead to confusion and issues in society, that is my point. Why should they have the right to masquerade?There are bad intentions behind this. Are you Ahmadiya yourself Wes? If so I am not really interested in your answer, this was addressed to Muslims.

Your second sentence negates the first sentence, if you are truly tolerant then you wouldn't care what they call themselves.

Tom Dunne

You say:

AntiBarbie wrote: »

Don't worry Wes I am calm. I am all for tolerance

and yet you then say:

AntiBarbie wrote: »

Are you Ahmadiya yourself Wes? If so I am not really interested in your answer

So, which is it? If you are tolerant, you would listen to all points of view and not simply disregard what someone says because of their belief system.

AntiBarbie

I honestly am not looking to cause trouble, maybe I misunderstood the seriousness of the issue in other countries and maybe I also misunderstood the requirements of being a Muslim (there are requirements right, not anyone can just claim to be muslim), or maybe you are not understanding my point, why not reasearch it.

What I understood was that Ahmadis fabricated:

1. a different Prophet
2. a different Quran (named "Tazkirah", which has the same status in the eyes of Qadianis as is accorded to Torah, Zabur, Injeel and Quran by the Muslims).
3. a different Kalimah
4. a different Shari'at
5. a different Ummat

Quadiani's also declare other Muslims as kafir. It is included in Pakistan's constitution that they are non muslim. For some reason you must declare on your Pakistani passport that you are not a quadiani, I didnt reeally understand that, seemed a bit extreme, what if you said yes?is your passport denied? There seems to be various organisations who's sole objective is to inform people of the differences and to stop them from being mislead. The sect is far from tiny if my sources are correct.

Benny_Cake

I didn't know what a "Qadiyani" was - apparently it's a pejorative term used for the Ahmadi community in Pakistan.

The BBC Radio 4 "Beyond Belief" program had a debate on the Ahmadiyya a while back. As a non-Muslim, my impression is that they are a somewhat heterodox sect of Islam, but Muslims nonetheless (I'm open to correction). They are certainly a lot closer to mainstream Islam than way out there groups such as the Nation of Islam. They seem to have a reputation as a moderate group that put an emphasis on interfaith relations.

This comes up in Christianity a lot too, particularly around groups such as the Latter-day Saints (Mormons). I think the matter of deciding who is in or out of a particular religion should be up for debate. It certainly shouldn't be left to a military dictator such as General Zia to decide, the treatment of the Ahmadis in Pakistan is outrageous.

wes

AntiBarbie wrote: »

The sect is far from tiny if my sources are correct.

Well, I suppose tiny is relative.

I think the above comparison of Ahmadis to Mormons is pretty apt in a lot of ways.

4real

AntiBarbie wrote: »

1. a different Prophet
2. a different Quran (named "Tazkirah", which has the same status in the eyes of Qadianis as is accorded to Torah, Zabur, Injeel and Quran by the Muslims).
3. a different Kalimah
4. a different Shari'at
5. a different Ummat

Quadiani's also declare other Muslims as kafir.

1.Not true, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad came under and was a servant of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)
2.Again totally false, Ahmadis follow the one Quran which is universal. Tazkirah is a book written by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad along with 80 others.
3.They believe in the same Kalimah as other muslims.
4.They believe in the Shari'at of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)
5.They belong to the Ummat of Prophet Muhmmad (PBUH)

Maybe you are the one that needs to do a little bit more research before you put up these "facts".
Ahmadis dont declare other muslims as kafir.
As said above i ask you who gave you the right to say that who is a muslim and who is a non-muslim?

confusedquark

4real wrote: »

1.Not true, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad came under and was a servant of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)
2.Again totally false, Ahmadis follow the one Quran which is universal. Tazkirah is a book written by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad along with 80 others.
3.They believe in the same Kalimah as other muslims.
4.They believe in the Shari'at of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)
5.They belong to the Ummat of Prophet Muhmmad (PBUH)

Maybe you are the one that needs to do a little bit more research before you put up these "facts".
Ahmadis dont declare other muslims as kafir.
As said above i ask you who gave you the right to say that who is a muslim and who is a non-muslim?

It all mostly boils down to point 1, and who/what Mirza himself claimed to be. From what I can gather, he initially started by stating Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the last of the Prophets, then he claimed to be Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) brought back to life and/or as blessed as him, and then to be superior than the prophet Muhammad (pbuh), claimed to receive new revelations directly from God, and then claimed the religion of Muhammad to be dead and satanic, and claimed that any Muslim who did not swear allegiance to him as Kafir. All those points are referenced on that website, but I'd interested to hear the Ahmadi point of view regarding those references.

There's also a page (and other websites) highlighting discrepancies in his writings.

confusedquark

Have copied and pasted this from another thread, as it's more appropriate here:

iwantthat wrote: »

Thanks for your input confusedquark and mentioning the fact that Ahmadiyya Muslims were declared out of the folds of Islam by many other Muslim scholars. How ironic is that Many of the same scholars in fact also declared each other's sectarian believes to be not in line with Islam. Lolz.

There is a huge difference between "not in line" with Islam and "outside the fold" of Islam. Scholars can differ on some issues and practices of other sects, but even then, the vast majority stop short of saying "so and so is outside the fold of Islam" (because that is a very serious accusation, and is never done lightly) - with the exception being when they refer to Ahmadi's. There will always be scholars who will hold different views to the majority, but it speaks volumes when they are all unanimous with their opinion on a matter.

"Indeed the most God fearing of His worshipers are the scholars." (Quran 35:28)

iwantthat wrote: »

For us Ahmadiyya Muslims, we firmly believe That All mighty Allah is the only one who can be the judge of someone's believes and righteousness (which is in line with Quran and the property of Oneness of Allah Subhana wa Tala

"Only Allah almighty can be the judge of someone's beliefs and righteousness" is a good line to use in theory, but consider this hadith -

"We judge you by what is apparent to us of your deeds." [Narrated by Umar ibn Al-Khattab, Bukhari 3:809]

If somebody claiming to be a Muslim turned around and starting openly worshiping statues, and then said "only Allah almighty can judge my beliefs and righteousness", then that just wouldn't hold. There are a certain few things in Islam which are completely unacceptable and will result in you being excluded from the religion, and believing in Mirza as a prophet who received revelations directly from Allah swt (amidst other things) certainly seems to be one of them.

iwantthat wrote: »

so we the Ahmadiyya Muslims will not stop anyone claiming to be a Muslim from coming to the Mosque for praying. After all the Galway Mosque is built for the sole purpose of worship so be it that one holds Shia believes to be right and other holds Sunni believes to be right, everyone is welcome to come and pray and spread the message of peace. The same message which we the Ahmadiyya Muslims are spreading throughout the world from over a century.

It is interesting that you claim "that one holds Shia believes to be right and other holds Sunni believes to be right", because Mirza himself claimed that any Muslim who did not swear allegiance to him to be a Kafir (link above). Furthermore, even though you are welcoming everyone to come pray there, from what I have read, it appears Ahmadi's are not allowed to pray behind non-Ahmadi's.

iwantthat wrote: »

and you, confusedquark, the good Muslim you are, please invite people to join congressional prayers, regardless where they are being held. Be it in a room in on Tuam Road, or in a Hall in Westside or in Beautiful home of Allah, the Maryam Mosque of Galway. Please stop spreading hatred. No one is going to benefit from it.
Jazak Allah Khair

I am making no attempt to spread hatred. I have simply pointed out what the majority consensus among Muslims is in relation to Ahmadi's, and once again, if you believe in the Quran, you will understand why I need to point it out:

"Therefore who is more astray than he who invents a lie upon Allah in order to lead the people astray without knowledge". (Quran 6:144).

muslimstudent

4real wrote: »

1.Not true, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad came under and was a servant of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)
2.Again totally false, Ahmadis follow the one Quran which is universal. Tazkirah is a book written by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad along with 80 others.
3.They believe in the same Kalimah as other muslims.
4.They believe in the Shari'at of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)
5.They belong to the Ummat of Prophet Muhmmad (PBUH)

Maybe you are the one that needs to do a little bit more research before you put up these "facts".
Ahmadis dont declare other muslims as kafir.
As said above i ask you who gave you the right to say that who is a muslim and who is a non-muslim?

Then why do they always debate the finality of prophethood?
Qadiyanis are well know to change their beliefs from time to time.