If Germany invaded Russia

2Mad2BeMad

I like history alot (although I have not learned much since school) so my knowledge won't be as good as you guy's here.

But I always wondered, in a different world, if Germany invaded Russia to start World War 2 instead of Poland

Would the allies helped Germany?
I'd say Germany would of easily beated Russia if they invaded them first in 1939
but if thats how the war would of started do you think the allies would of bothered joining in to help either side? or would they let Germany take over Russia

Just curious to see some opinions, like I said I like history but I haven't got a great deal of knowledge with this era

Reekwind

Here's Europe in 1939. Note the position of Poland between Germany and the Soviet Union.

2Mad2BeMad

I know where Poland is but what I am saying is in a different world if Germany invaded Russia instead of Poland to start the war
lets say Poland for some reason or another let German walk through their country

Manach

Okay - under an assumption that Poland and Germany were allied against the USSR (having kept during good relations with the former after aiding them in dismantling Czechoslavia in 1938 and wishing to replay the 1921/22 war with the latter)?

Maphisto

2Mad2BeMad wrote: »

I know where Poland is but what I am saying is in a different world if Germany invaded Russia instead of Poland to start the war
lets say Poland for some reason or another let German walk through their country

Well thats unlikely considering the Germans have already taken Czechoslavakia but assuming they did. USSR would see this as an unfriendly act and likely declare war on Poland. It also gives USSR considerable warning of what is about to happen. All the time for all the diplomacy, and then moving this huge army across Poland, maybe several weeks.

I don't see the Allies, Britain and France joining Germany against USSR. Especially as Hitler had just made them "eat it" over Czeckoslavakia.

Tony EH

I definitely recall reading somewhere that Hitler, at least, contemplated a pact/alliance with Poland, in the 30's, for a future campaign against Russia.

If there's one country on that Planet that the Poles hated generally, it was Russia. A lot of Poles still do, even more so than Germany.

Hitler probably figured that he could use that animosity to his advantage.

Azwaldo55

Tony EH wrote: »

I definitely recall reading somewhere that Hitler, at least, contemplated a pact/alliance with Poland, in the 30's, for a future campaign against Russia.

If there's one country on that Planet that the Poles hated generally, it was Russia. A lot of Poles still do, even more so than Germany.

Hitler probably figured that he could use that animosity to his advantage.

In 1914 Poland was part of Russia and the northern borders of Germany extended along the Baltic coast as far as what it is now the border of Lithuania.



After the 1917 revolution and the withdrawal of German occupation forces following the end of WW1 the Soviets attempted to retake Poland but were repulsed. The invasion happened when Germany was in a state of near civil war between communists and the extreme right after the flight of the Kaiser.
For Hitler this was a key moment that convinced him the Soviet Union had to be confronted and defeated. The presence of Jews in large numbers in Poland, Ukraine, Belorussia and Russia itself and the fact that many prominent Soviet leaders were Jews convinced him that he would have to invade and destroy "Jewish-Bolshevism."

Hitler also believed that the American and British economies were controlled by the Rothschilds and other prominent Jewish families who were in league with their Jewish allies in the Soviet Union.

Hitler had hoped to win over the Poles to ally with him to make war with Russia but he would have still aimed to conquer Poland, recover Danzig and territory losses that cut off East Prussia from Germany proper and sow it with Germans. What he did instead was ally with Soviet Russia against Poland and went to war with Russia after he conquered Poland.

Hitler might have made peace with Lord Halifax who almost certainly would have become British PM if Churchill had chickened out. Britain would have become a puppet of Nazi Germany and been stripped of its resources just like France and Poland.

Hitler was always obsessed with recovering the territory in Russia conquered in 1914-1918 and creating living space for German settlers but he was never going to ignore millions of Jews living Poland and therefore was always going to make war with the Poles at the earliest opportunity.

AllthingsCP

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

Hitler might have made peace with Lord Halifax who almost certainly would have become British PM if Churchill had chickened out. Britain would have become a puppet of Nazi Germany and been stripped of its resources just like France and Poland.

I disagree with the above section, I don't believe that the british people would have allowed a peace between Britain and Germany that placed Britain in a puppet state regardless of whatever prime minister was in parliament. Germany at the time knew any assault on Mainland britain would have been extremely costly both resources and manpower would be drained.

Germany certainly could have defeated the Soviet Union. Any of a number of small or large differences could have tipped the balance. Some of the more common ideas include:

Germany could have prepared better logistically - The Germans could have prepared more troops for winter campaigns. They could have made rebuilding captured Soviet railroads a priority. They could have converted to full wartime production earlier. They could have stockpiled more spare parts. They could have standardized production of military equipment.

Germany could have decided on a general defensive stance in the Ukraine and concentrated more troops on the central and northern fronts in 1941. Germany could have decided to attack Leningrad rather than besiege it. Germany could have decided to advance on Moscow in the fall of 1941 rather than mop up pockets of Red Army resistance (although IMHO that would have been a mistake). Germany could have withdrawn to more defensive positions in the winter of 1941. Germany could have renewed their attack against Moscow in the spring of 1941 rather than head south (again, what would have been a bad idea in my opinion). Germany could have decided to try to target fewer objectives in their 1941 spring offensive.

Germany could have tried to co-opt the Soviet people rather than push them to full resistance. If Germany had claimed to be fighting to liberate the Soviet Union from communism or to be liberating other nationalities from Russian domination, they could have converted millions to their cause. Instead, acting on Hitler's orders, German forces treated the Soviets as harshly as possible and gave them no alternative except to fight as hard as they could.

Leftist

The only way Germany would have beaten Russia, was if Russia was the size of Poland.
Germany could never have held Russia.

AllthingsCP

Leftist wrote: »

The only way Germany would have beaten Russia, was if Russia was the size of Poland.
Germany could never have held Russia.

Not precisely, Overall victory could have been costly but a limited Term War with War Goals could have been achieved.

Leftist

AllthingsCP wrote: »

Not precisely, Overall victory could have been costly but a limited Term War with War Goals could have been achieved.

yes but how long could they realistically held control?

I know it's hard to tell, and maybe bringing in factors such as removing US financial and hardware support, and perhaps if someone not as effective as Stalin was in charge.

but if they went to moscow in 1942 instead of moving south, they would have faced soviet forces who expected them. Just like in 43 when they were smashed.


imo there are too many changes to events required for Germany to realistically have a chance of negotiating captured lands (up to 1941, even 42 lines).

And then it would go against nazi germany's core policy of lebensraum and extermination of untermench. They could, technically, have seriously strengthened their own hand by supporting Ukrainian or other soviet satellite states in their opposition to moscow. but then that would mean supporting some independence or self control for those states. Which would mean Germany would have forsaken the very reasons they went.

Capt'n Midnight

AllthingsCP wrote: »

Not precisely, Overall victory could have been costly but a limited Term War with War Goals could have been achieved.

So you're saying Stalin wouldn't have backed down ?

Finland wasn't worth the price to the Russians

Germany taking a huge chunk of the population and resources would have been a matter of national survival.

The UK gave aid to the Finns during the Winter war.


Don't forget that Russia invaded Poland too in September 1939.

If they hadn't split Poland between them then and traded so much then Stalin would probably have been more on guard in '41, and defence could have been stronger.

AllthingsCP

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

So you're saying Stalin wouldn't have backed down ?.

No i am saying opposite to that.

Ping Chow Chi

What if Russia had attacked Poland first?

Capt'n Midnight

Ping Chow Chi wrote: »

What if Russia had attacked Poland first?

What if Russia had attacked Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Romania ?

Ping Chow Chi

Yes I know that they did, but Germany invading Poland was the trigger that forced Britain and France to declare war on Germany. Now if Russia had invaded Poland first, would that have forced them to remain netrual, or even join on Germany's side?

Capt'n Midnight

Look at the whole Western Betrayal thing.

I can't see the UK and France allying with Germany. not after what happened to the Czechs. Don't forget the French and Russians were trying to ally with each other the main sticking point was that the Poles weren't going to let the Russians on their soil. Belgium

I could see them watching from the sidelines