Cafe Frei Liffey Valley

traco

I was in Liffey Valley last week and this place was opening up for the day. No association or link to the place apart from the one coffee described.
http://www.cafefrei.ie/menu/coffee/arabic.html
Several drip coffees on the go so went over for a look. Very interesting menu, so much so I was caught on the hop a little.

So I threw caution to the wind and asked the Barista for a decent morning caffeine hit. She suggested the Taj Mahal Black coffee and described it, now to be fair I wasn't sold on the description and tea mixed with coffee and sweet wasn't that appealing as I just like straight black coffee. Anyway I went with it and it was very enjoyable, not overly sweet, lot of citrus and a kick.

Had to run but would go back and spend an hour as I reckon it merits further investigation just on the fact that it's different. So has anyone been there and have any suggestions worth ordering on the next visit?

Gran Hermano

Hungarian franchise?

traco

Appears to be from what I could see on the web

pointer28

I was in there during the week and had some kind of latte with peruvian pepper in it. Different but very nice.

The GF had an Australian Hazelnut Hot Chocolate and it was amazing. Nothing like the stuff you get anywhere else.

ckeego

Sorry, but 3.60 for a double espresso in Neilstown is taking the piss, no matter how good it is..

One of the best DE's I have had cost me 80c in Milan last year..

Brilliant coffee in Tucson AZ for 2 dollars 50.

Even a plunger of Jamaican Blue Mountain in Gothenburg for about 4 euro, but there was a good 3 cups in it.

This adoption of the London model of a chalkboard and a fancy description of washed and single origin, blah blah and charging the equivalent of a bloody good bag of beans for the privelege, apologies but that's Emperor's New Clothes stuff...

ckeego

Not to mention the best espresso on the East Coast-The Happy Pear Greystones-1 euro 80c...

ckeego

Even Coffee Angel in South Anne Street is 2.20 for a DE, Walter Mitty around the corner is 2 euro also-these are 2 of the best espresso spots in the city, so why a joint in Liffey Valley is charging well over 50% more is puzzling.

Can't see them lasting long there at those prices, IMHO. Silly season stuff of years gone by...

Jezek

ckeego wrote: »

Sorry, but 3.60 for a double espresso in Neilstown is taking the piss, no matter how good it is..

One of the best DE's I have had cost me 80c in Milan last year..

Brilliant coffee in Tucson AZ for 2 dollars 50.

Even a plunger of Jamaican Blue Mountain in Gothenburg for about 4 euro, but there was a good 3 cups in it.

This adoption of the London model of a chalkboard and a fancy description of washed and single origin, blah blah and charging the equivalent of a bloody good bag of beans for the privelege, apologies but that's Emperor's New Clothes stuff...

Your comparisons are a little bit apples and oranges..
In milan you're getting commodity coffee, and you're also standing( if you sit the price is higher). Serving better beans that are sources carefully, processed well, roasted with attention and then brewed with more care (in Italy baristas don't weigh their shots) and having a place to sit means that prices in Dublin will be higher than in Milan. Frankly the coffee is better too.

Now can some places overdo it ? yes of course. But the focus on origin and process is a great step forward in quality, not emperor's new clothes.

Jezek

ckeego wrote: »

Even Coffee Angel in South Anne Street is 2.20 for a DE, Walter Mitty around the corner is 2 euro also-these are 2 of the best espresso spots in the city, so why a joint in Liffey Valley is charging well over 50% more is puzzling.

Can't see them lasting long there at those prices, IMHO. Silly season stuff of years gone by...

Walter 'Cafe Sol' Mitty are not in the running for best espresso in Dublin, in my opinion. I rate a lot of places higher than them: Fika round the corner, Roasted Brown, 3FE, Kaph, Cup, Brother Hubbard, etc etc

James_R

Jezek wrote: »

Your comparisons are a little bit apples and oranges..
In milan you're getting commodity coffee, and you're also standing( if you sit the price is higher). Serving better beans that are sources carefully, processed well, roasted with attention and then brewed with more care (in Italy baristas don't weigh their shots) and having a place to sit means that prices in Dublin will be higher than in Milan. Frankly the coffee is better too.

Now can some places overdo it ? yes of course. But the focus on origin and process is a great step forward in quality, not emperor's new clothes.

Well said, I didn't know where to start so said nothing.

Jezek

James_R wrote: »

Well said, I didn't know where to start so said nothing.

I didn't even begin to address the moral implications of dirt-cheap beans vs expensive beans. Yes, direct trade is a fad and a buzzword, but in a lot of cases it results in fairer wages and support of education, women's rights etc.

traco

Its not cheap but I think Insomnia is around 2.50 - 2.80 for an americano. I'm never really in around town so can't comment on any of the places mentioned.

From the one experince I had I'd go back purely to try some of the other Arabic types which at €3.60 are pricey but not somthing you'd usually experience

ckeego

Jezek wrote: »

Walter 'Cafe Sol' Mitty are not in the running for best espresso in Dublin, in my opinion. I rate a lot of places higher than them: Fika round the corner, Roasted Brown, 3FE, Kaph, Cup, Brother Hubbard, etc etc

Wholly agree with you on all of the above (yet to try Brother Hubbard but all other boxes ticked) Never knew Cafe Sol connection..Its good coffee though at a fair price..

ckeego

Jezek wrote: »

Your comparisons are a little bit apples and oranges..
In milan you're getting commodity coffee, and you're also standing( if you sit the price is higher). Serving better beans that are sources carefully, processed well, roasted with attention and then brewed with more care (in Italy baristas don't weigh their shots) and having a place to sit means that prices in Dublin will be higher than in Milan. Frankly the coffee is better too.

Now can some places overdo it ? yes of course. But the focus on origin and process is a great step forward in quality, not emperor's new clothes.

Can't see the apples and oranges comparison. In Milan they were serving a bloody good espresso at a very fair price and yes, having spent a lot of time in Italy over the past 2 decades, I know that it is a lot more expensive to sit down than stand up!

Disagree that the coffee is better here though! Up until about 10 yrs ago, most Irish people's idea of a good Joe was Bewleys.. I rest my case.

Weighing shots?! Perhaps these guys are a bit more experienced day to day than someone shelling out to attend the Dublin Barista School and perhaps have a touch of feel about the process? Just because you get a touchy fluffy story about the bean origin and roasting process doesn't mean a. That it's worth 300% more or b. that it DID actually go through that process

Define commodity coffee? Interesting term...

ckeego

Jezek wrote: »

I didn't even begin to address the moral implications of dirt-cheap beans vs expensive beans. Yes, direct trade is a fad and a buzzword, but in a lot of cases it results in fairer wages and support of education, women's rights etc.

At what point did I mention direct trade? By paying for more expensive beans you think there is a link to fair trade? And you are somewhat naive to connect direct trade and women's rights...

Please please don't tell me that by paying 3.60 for a small strong coffee in a dodgy mall that this results in fair wages and women's rights??

Le do thoil, stick on the topic

Jezek

ckeego wrote: »

Can't see the apples and oranges comparison. In Milan they were serving a bloody good espresso at a very fair price and yes, having spent a lot of time in Italy over the past 2 decades, I know that it is a lot more expensive to sit down than stand up!

Disagree that the coffee is better here though! Up until about 10 yrs ago, most Irish people's idea of a good Joe was Bewleys.. I rest my case.

Weighing shots?! Perhaps these guys are a bit more experienced day to day than someone shelling out to attend the Dublin Barista School and perhaps have a touch of feel about the process? Just because you get a touchy fluffy story about the bean origin and roasting process doesn't mean a. That it's worth 300% more or b. that it DID actually go through that process

Define commodity coffee? Interesting term...

You rest your case based on what was happening 10 years ago? Rest it now by trying a coffee in coffee angel, or 3fe. That is some of the best coffee in the entire world.

Weighing shots means has nothing to do with 'feeling' etc it is part of a movement towards more quantifiable measures of coffee such as measuring TDS, extraction % etc. For the evidence that this makes better coffee, see vice fedele's work, matt perger etc.

Ok, origin- this is complex isssue. of course any story should be taken with a pinch or two of salt. However, when I buy Tim Wendelboe coffee, I know exactly what he paid (it's on his website) and then I can compare that with what starbucks pays. I don't know if its worth it but I think it's a fact that '3rd wave' coffee sourcing means a lot more money goes to the farmer. And then you have women's cooperatives etc which are frequently supported by such sourcers, probably for the exact reason that it's a good story.


And yes, direct trade is how a lot of '3rd wave' roasters buy coffee. You didn't mention it, I did, as it is one of the 'trappings' of the '3rd wave' ideology

As for worth - I think my bag of beans that costs 12 euro is worth it, based on taste alone. You might disagree.

As for overpriced coffee - I didn't mean a ****ty coffee at a mall. I was talking about 'The london model' which you ridiculed. You brought this up, not me. The OP was talking about a completely different coffee model.

ckeego

Jezek wrote: »

You rest your case based on what was happening 10 years ago? Rest it now by trying a coffee in coffee angel, or 3fe. That is some of the best coffee in the entire world.

Weighing shots means has nothing to do with 'feeling' etc it is part of a movement towards more quantifiable measures of coffee such as measuring TDS, extraction % etc. For the evidence that this makes better coffee, see vice fedele's work, matt perger etc.

Ok, origin- this is complex isssue. of course any story should be taken with a pinch or two of salt. However, when I buy Tim Wendelboe coffee, I know exactly what he paid (it's on his website) and then I can compare that with what starbucks pays. I don't know if its worth it but I think it's a fact that '3rd wave' coffee sourcing means a lot more money goes to the farmer. And then you have women's cooperatives etc which are frequently supported by such sourcers, probably for the exact reason that it's a good story.


And yes, direct trade is how a lot of '3rd wave' roasters buy coffee. You didn't mention it, I did, as it is one of the 'trappings' of the '3rd wave' ideology

As for worth - I think my bag of beans that costs 12 euro is worth it, based on taste alone. You might disagree.

As for overpriced coffee - I didn't mean a ****ty coffee at a mall. I was talking about 'The london model' which you ridiculed. You brought this up, not me. The OP was talking about a completely different coffee model.

You debate well;)

I know how good 3FE and Coffee Angel are-a regular in both-so much so, I cycled a round trip of 70k to go to 3FE last weekend for a fix!

If you read my post, I don't at all ridicule the London scene-even the best such as Monmouth and Flat caps don't charge anywhere near 3.60 for a Joe-THAT is what I was ridiculing-taking an established model and overcharging for it-something that the Irish have exploited in the last decade.

The reference to Bewley's is exactly as stated-Dublin didn't know espresso from Barry's tea up until 10 years ago yet has developed in (limited areas) some really good cafes.

I will bow to your knowledge on weighing versus feeling but I know from my area of work that those that don't have a touch and feeling from what they do as opposed to being prescriptive don't tend to go far...

I have bought some expensive beans in my time and yes, they tend to taste well, regardless of whether they are Fair Trade, Rain Forest Alliance etc or not, but I find it very hard at times to diffrentiate the quality between say an Allegro 9 dollar bag single origin, a 7 pound sterling bag of ethnically sourced washed Finca and a 13 euro bag of HasBean from Vice other than the overpricing that has become the norm in certain areas of this country-that is the core of my point.

I am wholly in agreement with you on Starbucks and I would be keen to taste Tim Wendelboe's coffee-Not only is Starbucks a bland blend, but they cant even get the consistency of that right.

Chapeau to the new era of roasters in Ireland such as Two Fifty Square-The Irish Times ran an article recently on espresso bars and cafes both here and in the North and all of them imported their roast from abroad as opposed to doing it here-this cant but raise the price, regardless of where the raw product was sourced..

My original point was my feeling that a 3.60 espresso was overpriced-I stand by that-again today, I had a fantastic espresso in The Happy Pear for half that and even in top spots such as 3FE, despite the high rents I'm sure they are subject to, their tasting board of 2 espressos and sparkling water for 4 euro is infinitely better value than Liffey Valley...

Jezek

ckeego wrote: »

You debate well;)

I know how good 3FE and Coffee Angel are-a regular in both-so much so, I cycled a round trip of 70k to go to 3FE last weekend for a fix!

If you read my post, I don't at all ridicule the London scene-even the best such as Monmouth and Flat caps don't charge anywhere near 3.60 for a Joe-THAT is what I was ridiculing-taking an established model and overcharging for it-something that the Irish have exploited in the last decade.

The reference to Bewley's is exactly as stated-Dublin didn't know espresso from Barry's tea up until 10 years ago yet has developed in (limited areas) some really good cafes.

I will bow to your knowledge on weighing versus feeling but I know from my area of work that those that don't have a touch and feeling from what they do as opposed to being prescriptive don't tend to go far...

I have bought some expensive beans in my time and yes, they tend to taste well, regardless of whether they are Fair Trade, Rain Forest Alliance etc or not, but I find it very hard at times to diffrentiate the quality between say an Allegro 9 dollar bag single origin, a 7 pound sterling bag of ethnically sourced washed Finca and a 13 euro bag of HasBean from Vice other than the overpricing that has become the norm in certain areas of this country-that is the core of my point.

I am wholly in agreement with you on Starbucks and I would be keen to taste Tim Wendelboe's coffee-Not only is Starbucks a bland blend, but they cant even get the consistency of that right.

Chapeau to the new era of roasters in Ireland such as Two Fifty Square-The Irish Times ran an article recently on espresso bars and cafes both here and in the North and all of them imported their roast from abroad as opposed to doing it here-this cant but raise the price, regardless of where the raw product was sourced..

My original point was my feeling that a 3.60 espresso was overpriced-I stand by that-again today, I had a fantastic espresso in The Happy Pear for half that and even in top spots such as 3FE, despite the high rents I'm sure they are subject to, their tasting board of 2 espressos and sparkling water for 4 euro is infinitely better value than Liffey Valley...

It seems we are in agreement in most things. I thought you were taking the piss out of places like Monmouth. Obviously some chancer will always try to fake it and overcharge at the same time. I thought you were saying those type places are overpriced.

Now is every 3.60 espresso overpriced? No way. Same way that I will pay 15 euro to try a beer that was imported from halfway across the world, brewed in tiny amounts and tastes very unusual, I will also pay 3.60 to try a great espresso. Especially since baristas in the places I like take a lot of extra time as well as the shop paying a lot more attention to detail, all this costs them extra. Usually in good places the cost of the coffee to the consumer fairly reflects the actual cost.

As for measuring etc, I suggest that you might not know that they do it but you can taste it. Coffee Angel, Vice, 3fe constantly take measurements, and this is part of the reason why their coffee can taste so good, and so consistent.

As for the beans, I think you gave 3 examples of fairly specialty coffees (I don;t know allegro). In any case, you can tell there is a difference between those and tesco coffee, which is a lot cheaper than any of your examples. So you will see there is a correlation between price and quality? And of course Coffeeangel, coffeemojo and 3fe have lovely coffees available for far less than 10 euros.

However, when they do offer some more expensive coffees, there is usually a reason , .e.g. high costs to themselves, an exceptional coffee that was sold at a high bid, high export costs, microlot farms, supporting the farmer so they can improve their product etc etc. No not everyone is going to notice/appreciate/care that these coffee beans are different in their way, and it's ok - there are always cheaper alternatives.

In any case I think we are of very similar minds, so I'm not actually disagreeing with you here I'm just explaining my thinking about the coffee scene right now.

lolo62

I was there today. I live in Ballyfermot so its the closest place I could think of to pick up some beans. 115g bags were 4.90 which I liked because I was able to pick up 2 different bags. Bought some Ethiopian 'yrgacheffe' which I just tried and are really nice..also some hazelnut infused beans which I tasted in the shop and were yum.
Staff were lovely, will be back there for sure.

James_R

Was in Liffey Valley a couple of weeks back so popped in to try their 'freshly roasted single origin espresso of the month'.

This was prepared for me using a little single cup pour over v60 type device on a scales which all looked promising until the coffee was scooped out of a little box already ground. The coffee that was described to me as being acidic and complex was bland, roasty and pretty bad.

Jezek

James_R wrote: »

Was in Liffey Valley a couple of weeks back so popped in to try their 'freshly roasted single origin espresso of the month'.

This was prepared for me using a little single cup pour over v60 type device on a scales which all looked promising until the coffee was scooped out of a little box already ground. The coffee that was described to me as being acidic and complex was bland, roasty and pretty bad.

all the pretentiousness, none of the taste!

James_R

Jezek wrote: »

all the pretentiousness, none of the taste!

Exactly. Looks to me like they are trying to bridge some sort of gap between Starbucks and specialty coffee by offering a wide range of "fancy" milk based coffee drinks.

lolo62

James_R wrote: »

Exactly. Looks to me like they are trying to bridge some sort of gap between Starbucks and specialty coffee by offering a wide range of "fancy" milk based coffee drinks.

Nothing wrong with that, the hazelnut beans I bought there make delicious hazelnut coffee. I didn't find there to be any pretentiousness there at all. Very nice staff.

James_R

lolo62 wrote: »

Nothing wrong with that, the hazelnut beans I bought there make delicious hazelnut coffee. I didn't find there to be any pretentiousness there at all. Very nice staff.

Nope there sure isn't. I'm all for people discovering there's more to coffee than Costa or Starbucks. Pity the description I was given didn't meet the coffee I received.

I didn't get a chance to check out one of the many bags of beans they had on sale but do they give roast dates?

lolo62

James_R wrote: »

Nope there sure isn't. I'm all for people discovering there's more to coffee than Costa or Starbucks. Pity the description I was given didn't meet the coffee I received.

I didn't get a chance to check out one of the many bags of beans they had on sale but do they give roast dates?

No just best before on the bags I got and I wouldn't repurchase the Ethiopian beans I bought but will definitely be back for the hazelnut.

They're not in the same league as somewhere like 3fe but I found the staff lovely..I didn't have a coffee there so different experience to you. Are you saying they told porkie-pies about what you were getting?

James_R

lolo62 wrote: »

No just best before on the bags I got and I wouldn't repurchase the Ethiopian beans I bought but will definitely be back for the hazelnut.

They're not in the same league as somewhere like 3fe but I found the staff lovely..I didn't have a coffee there so different experience to you. Are you saying they told porkie-pies about what you were getting?

I'd say that the beans they used were 1. Not ground fresh and 2. Over Roasted to the point of losing any nice distinctive flavours.

lolo62

James_R wrote: »

I'd say that the beans they used were 1. Not ground fresh and 2. Over Roasted to the point of losing any nice distinctive flavours.

That's a pity..not much in this area coffee wise so I had high hopes for potential future coffees there. Will be sure to stick to ordering hazelnut!

DoozerT6

Didn't see any point in starting a new thread, so....I was in Liffey Valley earlier, and I decided to pop into Café Frei to treat myself to a nice, non-standard coffee. I've been there several times before, but having not been to LV for months (before the building work started), imagine my disappointment to realise that Café Frei has since changed its entire menu to concentrate heavily on food and reduced the coffee menu to much more standard fare No more Armenian orange coffee....I guess the market just wasn't there. At least the café itself is still there, even if it did have to reinvent itself to do so.