Penalty Points - Pay fine - within 28 days of issue date

Tres Say T

Please can someone help me.

I received a fixed penalty notice for speeding. No contest - I could have been. Its likely. The issue date of the notice was 27/09/13. I went to pay the fine on the 25/10/13. (within 28 days of the issue date)

I realise I am on the fringe of the closing date but I did not exceed it. The post office informed me that the system had increased my fine to €120 as I had exceeded by one day. As I didn't have the extra €40, I asked for proof from the post office to show that I had been present to pay the fine on that day.

I sent the receipt, my debit card details giving permission for the €80 to be deducted and a letter stating what had happened. Everything was returned with a letter telling me that I needed to include the issue date as day 1.

Am I incredibly stupid? Surely for 1 day to lapse, 24 hours has to pass?
I went to court and my case was adjourned so that I could seek legal advise. The judge brought up the cases of other motorists whose cases were thrown out of court in Mayo due to the fines not being sent out by registered post (they claimed they didn't receive a summons). It had gone to the high court. Nothing really to do with me (unless the whole system is going to be declared defunct) I have proven that my summons arrived as I turned up???
My gripe is with the time calculations. I do not want to spend €130 on legal advise to contest a €120 fine. Where do I stand.

Please can someone enlighten me. To me it is simple and logical. I believe I was on time. I don't see why I should have to pay extra....now I am looking at court costs and 4 penalty points instead of 2. I believe I deserve to have my argument heard as it makes sense to me. Paying €130 to have it heard is the same thing as being fined as its coming out of my pocket either way. Grrrrrr HELP!!

whippet

Tres Say T wrote: »

The issue date of the notice was 27/09/13. I went to pay the fine on the 25/10/13. (within 28 days of the issue date)

why, oh why do people leave things like this to the very last minute

Tres Say T wrote: »

I realise I am on the fringe of the closing date but I did not exceed it. The post office informed me that the system had increased my fine to €120 as I had exceeded by one day. As I didn't have the extra €40, I asked for proof from the post office to show that I had been present to pay the fine on that day.

Going in to the PO to ask for a receipt to say that you were present means nothing. The Post Office is just a mechanism for collecting the fine .. nothing more .. nothing less. Unless you have a receipt for actually paying your presence in the Post Office is meaningless.

Tres Say T wrote: »

Am I incredibly stupid? Surely for 1 day to lapse, 24 hours has to pass?

I won't call you stupid, but with something like this better safe than sorry. Just for a moment think of another situation .. a goal is scored in a premier league game after 20 seconds. The official match result will mark the goal as being scored in the 1st minute .. as in 1min ...even though only 20 seconds have passed. Once the fine is issued that is day 1, the second say would be 'after' day 1.

Tres Say T wrote: »

I went to court and my case was adjourned so that I could seek legal advise. The judge brought up the cases of other motorists whose cases were thrown out of court in Mayo due to the fines not being sent out by registered post (they claimed they didn't receive a summons). It had gone to the high court. Nothing really to do with me (unless the whole system is going to be declared defunct) I have proven that my summons arrived as I turned up???

The other cases are absolutely of no interest to you and your situation. By attempting to pay and turning up you have acknowledged that the system works

Tres Say T wrote: »

My gripe is with the time calculations. I do not want to spend €130 on legal advise to contest a €120 fine. Where do I stand.

you stand exactly where you are, my advise, don't waste your money and time arguing something like this

Tres Say T wrote: »

To me it is simple and logical. I believe I was on time.

it's not what you believe or what you see as logical .. it is what is the reality that matters

CiniO

I'd say it depends also on time of issuing the fine.
If it was issued at 9am on 27th Sep, and you were in the post office at 10am on 25th Oct, then it wasn't within 28 days.

pa990

OP
the ticket states that it is to be paid WITHIN 28 days from date of issue.

you left it till the last minute.. in fact, you left it beyond the last minute.

you'll have to suck it up.

btw. what date did you receive the ticket in the post ?

Stheno

28 days from the issue date is the day prior to you paying (or attempting to)

I'd suck it up.

All you'd to do was look at a calendar and count 28 days off from the 27/9 and include the 27th

bop1977

28 days after the 27/09 is the 25/10 so I think the op has a fair point.

I wouldn't include the 27/09 as day number 1. To me its day zero.

Stheno

bop1977 wrote: »

28 days after the 27/09 is the 25/10 so I think the op has a fair point.

I wouldn't include the 27/09 as day number 1. To me its day zero.

I'd include the 27th as it's the issue date, and it's within 28 days of the issue date

I'm seriously not getting the logic of people claiming the 27th doesn't count, it's a day is it not?

The Dagda

Stheno wrote: »

I'd include the 27th as it's the issue date, and it's within 28 days of the issue date

I'm seriously not getting the logic of people claiming the 27th doesn't count, it's a day is it not?

The logic is very simple.

The notice was issued on the 27th. On the 28th one day has passed.
The 28th is day 1. The 25th of October is day 28.

Stheno

The Dagda wrote: »

The logic is very simple.

The notice was issued on the 27th. On the 28th one day has passed.
The 28th is day 1. The 25th of October is day 28.

So the day of the 27th mysteriously counts as no time period?

The Dagda

Stheno wrote: »

So the day of the 27th mysteriously counts as no time period?

The clock starts on the 27th. 24 hours later, 1 day has passed. No mystery.

pa990

bop1977 wrote: »

28 days after the 27/09 is the 25/10 so I think the op has a fair point.

I wouldn't include the 27/09 as day number 1. To me its day zero.

I'm just checking my calendar for a day Zero... nope.. not there

Tres Say T

Whether I left it until the last minute really isn't the issue is it? Surely, within the judicial system which is specific in its nature, the payment date should be more specific. I did not try to avoid the penalty.

My logic - the issue date is the 27th. One day from that would be the 28th, 2 days the 29th. 24hrs have to pass for one day to exist? (If one was to be specific)

......I received the letter on the 29th.

irishgrover

Stheno wrote: »

I'd include the 27th as it's the issue date, and it's within 28 days of the issue date

I'm seriously not getting the logic of people claiming the 27th doesn't count, it's a day is it not?

without getting too nerdy... it's all very debatable...
From a software development and testing point of view this is referred to as boundary values and is the source for a lot of computer defects, and is ultimately down to interpretation of when a range of values stops and starts.

A good example would be as follows - and it's one that I have done myself many times... If you get a large group of people and ask then to pick a number between 1 and 10 (and write it down) for a potential prize, nobody ever picks 1 or 10, it's always 2,3,4,5,6,7,8, or 9.
Are the individual values of 1 and 10 both included in that rage 1 to 10. If you think about it you might say yes, but if you act on it you are likely to say no.

Another, more appropriate example is in relation to Judge Brian Curtin, who successfully argued that search warrant that was executed and found child porn in his house was invalid because it was not executed "within 7 days".
The guards interpreted this as giving them 7 X 24 hour periods from the date / time of grant to execute the search warrant. They executed the warrant within that period, on the 7th day, only to have the evidence thrown out on appeal as although it was within 7X24 (164 hours of the granting of the warrant) the judge decided that this was NOT "within 7 days"......

Nino Brown

The Dagda wrote: »

The clock starts on the 27th. 24 hours later, 1 day has passed. No mystery.

When one day had has passed you're in the second day.

taquilla

I had exactly the same lovely situation today at post office.

However tell me please who counts day of notice as day no.1?
If you do, tell me please guys when will be last day of payment if they will let you pay within ... 1 day (instead of 28) from date of issue? Today?

or...
What If time to pay will be not 28 but 2 days?
Fallowing their logic if they say:
You have to pay within 1 day - don't mean: until tomorrow
You have to pay within 2 days - don't mean: until the day after tomorrow
They say: in two days / mean: tomorrow

For me logical is:
Hey You !!! - You have 0 days time to pay - You have to pay now/today
Hey You !!! - You have 1 day to pay - You have to pay until tomorrow
etc.
... You have 7 days (week) to pay (today is Monday the 1'st) - You pay Monday week on the 8'th.
and finally
as 28 days (4 weeks) from Monday the 1'st for me is Monday the 29'th

Going further the way of their logic:
If you say (at 1 PM): you have 1 hour to do it - doesn't mean you have time up to 2 PM
By them - from 1 to 2 PM is 2 hours and from Friday to Friday is 8 days

Sorry! I give up! I'm too stupid for this logic.

Any way - Tres Say T - what was the end of your story?

Guy:Incognito

taquilla wrote: »

I had exactly the same lovely situation today at post office.

However tell me please who counts day of notice as day no.1?
If you do, tell me please guys when will be last day of payment if they will let you pay within ... 1 day (instead of 28) from date of issue? Today?

or...
What If time to pay will be not 28 but 2 days?
Fallowing their logic if they say:
You have to pay within 1 day - don't mean: until tomorrow
You have to pay within 2 days - don't mean: until the day after tomorrow
They say: in two days / mean: tomorrow

For me logical is:
Hey You !!! - You have 0 days time to pay - You have to pay now/today
Hey You !!! - You have 1 day to pay - You have to pay until tomorrow
etc.
... You have 7 days (week) to pay (today is Monday the 1'st) - You pay Monday week on the 8'th.
and finally
as 28 days (4 weeks) from Monday the 1'st for me is Monday the 29'th

Going further the way of their logic:
If you say (at 1 PM): you have 1 hour to do it - doesn't mean you have time up to 2 PM
By them - from 1 to 2 PM is 2 hours and from Friday to Friday is 8 days

Sorry! I give up! I'm too stupid for this logic.

Any way - Tres Say T - what was the end of your story?

You could always not wait till the 28th (or 27th or 29th) day and then it doesn't matter what way they count it.

corktina

two days to pay... today and tomorrow surely.

Bruthal

whippet wrote: »

I won't call you stupid, but with something like this better safe than sorry. Just for a moment think of another situation .. a goal is scored in a premier league game after 20 seconds. The official match result will mark the goal as being scored in the 1st minute .. as in 1min ...even though only 20 seconds have passed. Once the fine is issued that is day 1, the second say would be 'after' day 1.

So 2 days from Monday, is Tuesday.

Bruthal

corktina wrote: »

two days to pay... today and tomorrow surely.

Two days from date of issue I'd say myself.

Anything is possible though.

Shelflife

taquilla wrote: »

I had exactly the same lovely situation today at post office.

However tell me please who counts day of notice as day no.1?
If you do, tell me please guys when will be last day of payment if they will let you pay within ... 1 day (instead of 28) from date of issue? Today?

or...
What If time to pay will be not 28 but 2 days?
Fallowing their logic if they say:
You have to pay within 1 day - don't mean: until tomorrow
You have to pay within 2 days - don't mean: until the day after tomorrow
They say: in two days / mean: tomorrow

For me logical is:
Hey You !!! - You have 0 days time to pay - You have to pay now/today
Hey You !!! - You have 1 day to pay - You have to pay until tomorrow
etc.
... You have 7 days (week) to pay (today is Monday the 1'st) - You pay Monday week on the 8'th.
and finally
as 28 days (4 weeks) from Monday the 1'st for me is Monday the 29'th

Going further the way of their logic:
If you say (at 1 PM): you have 1 hour to do it - doesn't mean you have time up to 2 PM
By them - from 1 to 2 PM is 2 hours and from Friday to Friday is 8 days

Sorry! I give up! I'm too stupid for this logic.

Any way - Tres Say T - what was the end of your story?

Why leave it until the last day ? why put yourself at risk of paying an extra €40 ?

Pay it 3 or 4 days prior and you dont have this issue, why mess with a deadline by running so close to it ? If a cut off point is 10am on tues morning dont wander in at 10.01 and expect to get it through ?

I just dont understand people leaving it until the last minute as if they are making a statement or protest.

Pay it early and be done with it.!

Bruthal

Shelflife wrote: »

Why leave it until the last day ? why put yourself at risk of paying an extra €40 ?

Pay it 3 or 4 days prior and you dont have this issue, why mess with a deadline by running so close to it ? If a cut off point is 10am on tues morning dont wander in at 10.01 and expect to get it through ?

I just dont understand people leaving it until the last minute as if they are making a statement or protest.

Pay it early and be done with it.!

28 days should be 28 days regardless of leaving to last minute.

Bruthal

Fines

From the date of issue of the notice (which is the date just below the reference number on the top right of the document), there is a 28 day period in which to pay the fixed charge amount.

Now unless Friday is 5 days after Monday now instead of 4, it looks like 28 days start from the day a ticket is issued, and day one is the following day after issue date.

Tigger

if we assume it was Issued at 13:00 on 27/9
=>
One day has passed by 13:00 on 28/09
=>
28 days have passd by 13:00 on 25/10

From Monday morning two days work are Monday and Tuesday
If on Monday morning I say "I'm here for 2 days this week" don't expect to see me on Wednesday

Bruthal

Tigger wrote: »

if we assume it was Issued at 13:00 on 27/9
=>
One day has passed by 13:00 on 28/09
=>
28 days have passd by 13:00 on 25/10

From Monday morning two days work are Monday and Tuesday
If on Monday morning I say "I'm here for 2 days this week" don't expect to see me on Wednesday

What day is 4 days after Monday?

Tigger

Bruthal wrote: »

What day is 4 days after Monday?

Four days AFTER Monday is Friday
But AFTER Monday is called Tuesday
One day from Monday morning is Tuesday morning
If I ask you to respond within 1day of this post when is the deadline

Bruthal

Tigger wrote: »

Four days AFTER Monday is Friday
But AFTER Monday is called Tuesday
One day from Monday morning is Tuesday morning

So four days from date of issue on Monday would be Friday.

Very good. And that would be until close of business Friday, not Friday morning. That's the way it works. Not according to your work sick days or goals scored in first minute of a premiership match.

Bruthal

Tigger wrote: »

If I ask you to respond within 1day of this post when is the deadline

The simple, made complicated.

Tigger

Bruthal wrote: »

So four days from date of issue on Monday would be Friday.

Very good. And that would be until close of business Friday, not Friday morning. That's the way it works. Not according to your work sick days or goals scored in first minute of a premiership match.

I'm telling you how it works
Not how it should work or how I want it to work or any of that crap
Tickets are batch issued and are taken to have been issued at 00:00:01
On the day of issue so the first day is counted
Is it stupid? Yeas of course it is they should issue like revenue do
Revenue issue with a closing date and time on their correspond so there is no ambiguity

Bruthal

Tigger wrote: »

I'm telling you how it works
Not how it should work or how I want it to work or any of that crap
Tickets are batch issued and are taken to have been issued at 00:00:01
On the day of issue so the first day is counted
Is it stupid? Yeas of course it is they should issue like revenue do
Revenue issue with a closing date and time on their correspond so there is no ambiguity

Right so, you get a ticket a at 8pm, so you don't have 28 days to pay. You have 27.

Ireland in action there.

Falcon L

pa990 wrote: »

OP
the ticket states that it is to be paid WITHIN 28 days from date of issue.

you left it till the last minute.. in fact, you left it beyond the last minute.

you'll have to suck it up.

This is the post that explains it best. The wording is WITHIN 28 days. If you go to pay it ON day 28 you are too late.

Tigger

Bruthal wrote: »

Right so, you get a ticket a at 8pm, so you don't have 28 days to pay. You have 27.

Ireland in action there.

Lol you have less
If the ticket is issued on a Friday morning you will receive it on Monday
At that point you have until close of business Thursday three weeks
Which is 24days
This is why the ticket should state
This ticket is half price (that's how it's done that you get a bonus for not contesting and paying on time) if you pay by close of business on xx/xx/2015
Otherwise you pay the full amount
If the ticket is not paid by xx/xx/2015 you will have to go to court and say you don't have a post box at which time the judge will let you off if he is in a good mood or if you are a pretty girl/boy (depends on the judge )

Bruthal

Falcon L wrote: »

This is the post that explains it best. The wording is WITHIN 28 days. If you go to pay it ON day 28 you are too late.

Actual wording

From the date of issue of the notice (which is the date just below the reference number on the top right of the document), there is a 28 day period in which to pay the fixed charge amount.

http://www.garda.ie/controller.aspx?page=1650

Maybe there is other wording somwherer.

Falcon L

Bruthal wrote: »

Actual wording



http://www.garda.ie/controller.aspx?page=1650

Maybe there is other wording somwherer.

I've never had the misfortune of receiving a penalty notice, so I was only taking this poster's word for it. Mr. Goody Two Shoes here. :P