Wiring issue

nokes

Hi Guys,


still in the process of figuring out which alarm to buy, but that's a different story.
I decided that I'd need to find out which wires match up to which sensors, but came across a strange one.

In the kitchen there is a sliding door. At the top right of the sliding door, there is a 6-core cable poking out. It's long enough to make me think that it's actually for a PIR as it's near a corner of the kitchen, so would be perfect for that.

However, this means that there would be no sensor on the sliding door... is that normal to leave off sensors on sliding doors? Or do you think it's for a sensor?

Also, more confusion as this cable is 6-core, but back at the control-panel end, I only have 4-core wires! I found that the black&red (power) cables in the 6-core at the PIR end are actually connected to the black&red in a single 4-core at the control panel end... That's good, at least I can get power to it.


However, none of the blue/yellow/green/white at the PIR end are connected to the blue&yellow at the control panel end... Any ideas guys?

<explanation>
In order to determine if a couple of wires were connected from one end to the other, I attached a battery to the black&red wires at the control panel.
Then with a multimeter, I could see the voltage across the black&red at the sensor end.
Reversing the battery, I could see the voltage change to negative.
I thought that was safe a way to tets.
</explanation>

kub

Is there anyway that your windows and doors are wired in loop fashion?

nokes

In the kitchen, there are two windows with the sliding door in-between. I black&red and blue&yellow combinations at the windows match back to other separate 4-core cables at the cp.
But maybe this is a fault in my checking...


How would being wired in a loop fashion look like for the kitchen? I'm not familiar with how that works. Would I have to join up some wires?

kub

Loop cabling is typically cable goes from CP to window 1, then another goes from window 1 to window 2, another goes from 2 to 3 etc, until at the final window there is just a single cable.

nokes

Hmmm, ok cool. So if it's window1 -> PIR -> window2 (and ignoring for now the power black&red)

would it be that the blue wire at the CP is connected to the blue wire at window1, then the yellow wire (which would be connected inside the sensor normally) would be connected to maybe the blue wire of PIR, then the yellow wire of PIR two would be connected to the blue wire of window2 and the yellow wire of window2 back to the CP - thereby completing the loop?

kub

If that cable you mentioned is by your door then I imagine it has come out in the wrong position for the door. Wiring beams with windows is a big no no.

nokes

Well, there is a side window (on the left hand side of the kitchen) - this window1 has a 4-core wire coming out of it.
Then there is a sliding door (at the left of the back wall of the kitchen), near the corner of the door is a 6-core wire.
Then there is another window (at the right of the back wall of the kitchen - same wall as sliding door) - this window2 also has a 4-core wire coming out of it.

Where ~~ == window(4-core wire) and ~~~ == sliding door(6-core wire)

-~~~

---

~~-
|
~
~
|
|
|

---

kub

Well by the sounds of it, that 6 core must be for a beam and each window must be wired back seperately

nokes

Yeah, I think the windows might be wired back separately.

When you say beam, is that the same as a PIR? Sorry, but I'm just getting used to all the terminology
There is another PIR wire in the hall - and upstairs, (top corner of hall away from door facing front door - so can only be for a PIR) which is 4-core... so not all PIRs have been setup with 6-core, only this one at the sliding door...


As I said, the strange thing is that the black&red of the 6-core at the PIR are connected to a black&red of a 4-core at the CP.
The blue/yellow/green/white at the PIR aren't connected to the blue/yellow of the same 4-core at the CP.... unless the wires need to be connected somehow in order to "connect" back?

kub

Yes beams and PIRs are the same thing, why they are joined together at the panel is a mystery. Once the panel is fitted those cables will be connected to different zones.

I hope that makes sense.

A beam can be wired up with a 6 core in the traditional way or a 4 core using dual end of line resistors.

nokes

Ah, I think I might not have explained myself clear enough - you're definitely very patient to be still answering me

Nothing is connected at the CP end, there are dangling 4-core wires.... but only 4-core wires... all separate. I just don't understand how or why a sensor (the PIR here in question) has a 6-core wire, but there is no 6-core wire at the CP end to match....

When I attach a battery to the black&red wires of a specific 4-core wire at the CP end, and walk into the kitchen and hold the multimeter to the black&red wires of the 6-core, then I see the voltage across them.
If I reverse the battery, I then see a negative voltage - which means to me that the black wire at the CP is somehow connected (in the walls) to the black wire of the PIR - and also (because I can see the negative voltage) - that the red wire of the same specific 4-core cable is connected to the red wire of the PIR.

I just don't see how the PIR can send back an alarm to the CP because none of it's blue/yellow/green/white cables are "connected" through the walls back to the blue&yellow wires of the same specific 4-core wire at the CP end.... Phew - this is hard to explain

kub

Sounds like the guy wiring it ran short of cable and extended hos 6 core with a 4 core, I have seen it all over the years.

Did you actually purchase a panel? If so what make and model is it, I am just curious as a lot of them are wired and wireless, therefore wireless detectors in that area might get you out of a spot.

nokes

Haven't purchased a panel yet, but really want to stay away from wireless - I hate the idea of replacing batteries!

Yeah, it's just weird that he extended the power, i.e. black&red, but not the blue&yellow....

kub

2 cores to a beam is absolutely useless, are you going to self install this system or are you getting a pro to do it?

If this was 10 years ago then you would have no choice but to run a fresh cable to that beam.

Therefore your solution is a wireless beam, is changing a single battery every 3 years an issue?

altor

nokes wrote: »

Haven't purchased a panel yet, but really want to stay away from wireless - I hate the idea of replacing batteries!

Yeah, it's just weird that he extended the power, i.e. black&red, but not the blue&yellow....

If the other cables are working I would leave this cable out all together. It could be a break or join somewhere in behind the wall. Prob not worth the hassle of ripping a wall apart just to fix or find one cable. I would recommend getting yourself a hybrid system utilizing any working cables and put wire free on the sliding door.

nokes

Yeah, I guess instead of it being a PIR, I'll just make it a magnetic sensor on the sliding door. It's better than nothing I guess. That may have been the intention of the guy wiring it up, but ran out of 6-core and just extended the black&red to the 4-core. Bit of a lazy thing to do, but at least I have something.

And yeah, about the batteries and the wireless, I'd only be wondering every time it went off if it was cos the batteries were getting low. Three years sounds like a long time, but you'd always have to keep it in the back of your mind after a year that they might need replacing. Sounds silly, but I don't ever want to care about the alarm again... just install and forget!

kub

nokes wrote: »

Yeah, I guess instead of it being a PIR, I'll just make it a magnetic sensor on the sliding door. It's better than nothing I guess. That may have been the intention of the guy wiring it up, but ran out of 6-core and just extended the black&red to the 4-core. Bit of a lazy thing to do, but at least I have something.

And yeah, about the batteries and the wireless, I'd only be wondering every time it went off if it was cos the batteries were getting low. Three years sounds like a long time, but you'd always have to keep it in the back of your mind after a year that they might need replacing. Sounds silly, but I don't ever want to care about the alarm again... just install and forget!

I am afraid to say that alarms do not behave like that, 'install and forget'.
Components of alarm systems are made up of quite a few different devices, the manufacturers have designed and manufactured them to a certain standard and in order that the entire system is kept to that standard then routine maintenance is necessary. Even if it is not routinely serviced then eventually something will go wrong with it.
Also I can vouch that the likes of HKC detectors with batteries in them will last 3 years, we have a few out there that we installed over that time and have not been back to replace them as yet.