Blackthorn and whitethorn encroaching question.

tom_k

Hi all,

I have inherited a small farm of land, a few acres of which have fallen into neglect over a period of years. The main problem being that blackthorn and whitethorn bushes have encroached out into the fields in some areas.

I wish to cut or uproot the offending plants, which mostly have trunk diameters ranging from under an inch to three inches, with a handful having diameters of 6-8 inches.

I intend to retain and manage the bushes along boundary walls as fencing/shelter for stock.

These are my questions:

1. At what point is a plant considered a tree requiring a felling licence?
2. Are these species considered to be a noxious or invasive weed which may exempt them from such licences?

I've searched the Dept of Ag. website to no avail to find these answers so hoping someone here might be able to advise.

I'm aware of the legislation (Wildlife Act) governing when bushes can be cut and will comply with this. I wish to carry out this work in an environmentally responsible manner which will also allow me to get more productivity from the land.

Thanks in advance,

Tom.

gozunda

tom_k wrote: »

Hi all,

I have inherited a small farm of land, a few acres of which have fallen into neglect over a period of years. The main problem being that blackthorn and whitethorn bushes have encroached out into the fields in some areas.

I wish to cut or uproot the offending plants, which mostly have trunk diameters ranging from under an inch to three inches, with a handful having diameters of 6-8 inches.

I intend to retain and manage the bushes along boundary walls as fencing/shelter for stock.

These are my questions:

1. At what point is a plant considered a tree requiring a felling licence?
2. Are these species considered to be a noxious or invasive weed which may exempt them from such licences?

I've searched the Dept of Ag. website to no avail to find these answers so hoping someone here might be able to advise.

I'm aware of the legislation (Wildlife Act) governing when bushes can be cut and will comply with this. I wish to carry out this work in an environmentally responsible manner which will also allow me to get more productivity from the land.

Thanks in advance,

Tom.

1) Trees older than 10 rears old require a felling license - The Forestry Act 1946 outlines the legislative requirements for tree felling in Ireland. Under Section 37 of the Forestry Act, 1946 it is illegal
to uproot any tree over ten years old or
to cut down any tree of any age (including trees which form part of a hedgerow) - from your description it does not sound like the bushes are that old or 'part of a hedgerow" If in doubt get someone in to check. Counting tree rings can be a bit of an art form plus you have to cut the tree down to do it!

2) blackthorn or whitethorn are not considered noxious species

3) The Wildlife Act, 1976 prohibits hedge cutting during the nesting season for birds. The Wildlife (Amendment) Act 2000 extended the prohibition to run from the beginning of March to the end of August. The Act prohibits the "cutting, grubbing, burning or destruction by other means of vegetation growing on uncultivated land or in hedges or ditches during the nesting season and breeding season for birds and wildlife

Check http://www.npws.ie/legislationandconventions/irishlaw/

Oldtree

As it stands:

1. Tree over 10 years of age, ie 10 growth rings +.
2. No

Felling guidelines here.

http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/forestservice/treefelling/legalrequirementsfortreefelling/

Forestry Act, 1946

Definitions generally.

"the word “tree” does not include any hazel, apple, plum, damson, pear or cherry tree grown for the value of its fruit or any ozier, but with those exceptions includes every tree of any age or any stage of growth"

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1946/en/act/pub/0013/sec0002.html#sec2

A felling licence is easy to apply for, unless you are in an SAC, etc.

Studies in the UK have shown the benefit of hedgerows. The benefit of shelter and organic matter (leaves shed) outweighs the loss of grass production (shading) in final animal weight terms.

blackthorn and whitethorn will regrow from the roots if cut.

TomOnBoard

Specifically, a member of the family Rosaceae, the species Prunus spinosa is a flowering plant/thorny bush and would be considered to be a shrub rather than a tree unless very old, IMHO. A shrub is distinguished from a tree generally by a multiplicity of stems arising from/near the base and reduced height (< 8 metres fully grown)

As to whether a felling license is needed, lets be sensible with our advice here.

If it was me in that position, I'd reclaim my land from the invasion of an unchecked bush ASAP. Alternatively, fence it in and bring in 10 goats, 4 donkeys and 6 pigs. That'll take care of extraneous growth at all levels.

Oldtree

A very interesting point Tom. However the new forestry bill (2013) does mention blackthorn specifically (see below exempted trees) so I think it is safe to assume that it is considered a tree by the Department. Hawthorn is also mentioned. So currently if the hawthorn or blackthorn is over 10 years old, and does not fall into the current exempted category, a felling licence is needed to uproot or to fell. If works were carried out and a complaint was made bringing it to the attention of the Dept, and no licence had been obtained, then the OP could be prosecuted. The felling licence is a painless process. However we do not know how old the OP's plants are.

The proposed FORESTRY BILL 2013 is a little clearer then current legislation:

“tree” means a free standing woody perennial plant whose species has the potential to have a more or less definite crown and be capable of reaching a minimum height of 5 metres at maturity and 40 includes a sapling and the species of birch and hazel.

18.—Exempted trees.

(1) A tree
(c)(iv)(h) less than 5 years of age that came about through natural regeneration and removed from a field as part of the normal maintenance of agricultural land (but not where the tree is standing in a hedgerow),

(m) outside a forest
(iv) of the hawthorn or blackthorn species,

It is interesting to note that the proposed legislation makes a clear distinction between agricultural field and hedgerow.

I have cut a number of blackthorn down of various ages and they all regrew so their permanent removal would either need to be by chemical means or by grubbing out.

The wild goats that visit my wood in winter munch on the bark of Ash and Spindle and do not seem to touch the blackthorn with only a few scrapes to the hawthorn.

Land reclamation is a minefield all of its own. This a 2011 Dept "Guide for Farmers:

http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/ruralenvironment/environment/environmentalimpactassessment/EIAGuideforFarmers200212.pdf

tom_k

Thanks for the information. The vast majority of the plants are under 10 years old and indeed on inspection today I've discovered that clumps of briars in certain areas will be the biggest problem I've to contend with.

I've been familiarising myself with the Reclamation regulations and the area involved is less the area that requires screening or an environmental assessment.

In any case I can't commence any work legally until September 1st so at least I've some time to become fully aware of my obligations and responsibilities.

TomOnBoard

tom_k wrote: »

Thanks for the information. The vast majority of the plants are under 10 years old and indeed on inspection today I've discovered that clumps of briars in certain areas will be the biggest problem I've to contend with.

I've been familiarising myself with the Reclamation regulations and the area involved is less the area that requires screening or an environmental assessment.

In any case I can't commence any work legally until September 1st so at least I've some time to become fully aware of my obligations and responsibilities.

That last paragraph is symptomatic of the genuine confusion that all these regulations and laws give rise to.. tom_k is now caught between not one, not two, but multiple regs.

Can't do any work until Sept 1st ('coz of the Hedge cutting regs)
Can't cut down anything over 10 y.o. 'coz it'd be in breach of Forestry laws
And even if neither of the preceding 2 points applied, he has to worry abt. whether he is an SAC or similar, and therefore even more regs apply...

Sometimes, I just despair at the bureaucratic bolloxology that people are having to deal with. And don't tell me it's cause by EU! I can guarantee you that under NO circumstances would a French landowner put up with this kind of merde! And, don;t get me started on the subject of so-called "back-yard burning"!!!

tom_k

TomOnBoard wrote: »

That last paragraph is symptomatic of the genuine confusion that all these regulations and laws give rise to.. tom_k is now caught between not one, not two, but multiple regs.

Can't do any work until Sept 1st ('coz of the Hedge cutting regs)
Can't cut down anything over 10 y.o. 'coz it'd be in breach of Forestry laws
And even if neither of the preceding 2 points applied, he has to worry abt. whether he is an SAC or similar, and therefore even more regs apply...

Sometimes, I just despair at the bureaucratic bolloxology that people are having to deal with. And don't tell me it's cause by EU! I can guarantee you that under NO circumstances would a French landowner put up with this kind of merde! And, don;t get me started on the subject of so-called "back-yard burning"!!!

Definitely true about the confusion e.g. what I'd once have considered bushes are now revealed to be trees (or maybe they always were;))

I'm not in an SAC so it seems that the only hoop I'll have to jump through is the felling licence which should be straightforward.

My estimation of the ages of the offending plants is based on knowledge of the land over time since I remember it having little to no unwanted growth so most should be under the ten year threshold.

If I may ask another question is there an average circumference of trunk that might indicate the age of blackthorn or whitethorn?

TomOnBoard

tom_k wrote: »

If I may ask another question is there an average circumference of trunk that might indicate the age of blackthorn or whitethorn?

Wouldn't have thought so- too many variables such as quality of nutrients, availability of water, type of soil, exposure etc...

Oldtree

tom_k wrote: »

If I may ask another question is there an average circumference of trunk that might indicate the age of blackthorn or whitethorn?

Can you see any apical bud scars (circle scars) on the stem. If so then you could count them back along the stem. 10 should be easy enough to see, it is on ash.

tom_k

Oldtree wrote: »

Can you see any apical bud scars (circle scars) on the stem. If so then you could count them back along the stem. 10 should be easy enough to see, it is on ash.

Just did a quick google, are these the same as terminal bud scars? Looks like tom_k will be donning his safety glasses again tomorrow to do a close up inspection of the thorny b'stards:cool:

Oldtree

for a fuller explaination see here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76652880

There are 2 scars visible in this twig photo, the first just below the black buds. put in the post 2 posts down VVVVVV

Oldtree

tom_k wrote: »

Just did a quick google, are these the same as terminal bud scars? Looks like tom_k will be donning his safety glasses again tomorrow to do a close up inspection of the thorny b'stards:cool:

Yes that's them mind the eyes lol start at the top of the plant and work down the main stem.

Oldtree

This twig photo
https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/67091/189388.JPG

tom_k

Oldtree wrote: »

This twig photo
https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/67091/189388.JPG

That's great, thanks a million for this info. I'll likely be back tomorrow with more questions

Oldtree

If you are still unsure, you could always ring your local Forestry inspector for advice and/or ask for a site visit (to be 100% sure)

contact list, from Forest Service:

http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/forestry/forestservicegeneralinformation/contact/forestserviceinspectorate/ForestryInspectors03Dec13.doc

tom_k

Oldtree wrote: »

If you are still unsure, you could always ring your local Forestry inspector for advice and/or ask for a site visit (to be 100% sure)

contact list, from Forest Service:

http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/forestry/forestservicegeneralinformation/contact/forestserviceinspectorate/ForestryInspectors03Dec13.doc

Thanks for that Oldtree.

I inspected a random selection of plants for the apical bud scars yesterday but it seems I have neither the eyes nor the experience to evaluate them.

However today I got some help I hadn't been expecting. During a chance conversation with a neighbour, she told me a cousin of hers had spent time walking the land back there in July 2007 and had taken lots of photos of the views and the flora.

These photos were duly printed and sent back from the USA to my neighbour and amazingly show most of the areas in question. I was astounded to see the amount of blacktorn and briar that has marched forward in those seven years but it has answered my question about the age of most of the plants.

The fields are almost unrecognisable now, the only features that identify them as being the same are the boundary walls and distant landmarks!

Oldtree

That's great, now you know which plants are 7 years old and which are older.

tom_k

Oldtree wrote: »

That's great, now you know which plants are 7 years old and which are older.

Yep, about 95% are under 7 years, any of the ones that are in the photos are clearly much older and would be subject to felling licence if I do decide to get rid but if I had all the younger ones gone the place would be looking just fine i think.

A small advantage to all this is that there's some nice keepable growth along boundary walls that'll give good shelter too.

Oldtree

That sounds like a plan.:D