First time buyer unsure of renovation costs

Blackwater28

Hello

I would be really grateful if somebody out there could give me an indication of the costs involved in renovating a (more or less) derelict property.

I am considering purchasing an investment property (I'm a first time buyer) which is located on a prime one acre site on the N3 in Co.Meath. It is a two minute drive from the new M3 motorway and is just 45 minutes from the airport. It is an executor sale and the asking price is €45k. It is a two up, two down property with a very small kitchen at the rear.

However, the property itself is extremely dilapidated and is currently uninhabitable. For example, there is no toilet, bath, shower, hand basin etc, no central heating, no septic tank, no water tank, no plumbing as such (there is only a cold tap in the kitchen), there is no insulation whatsoever, the plastering is in poor condition, there is a hole in one of the floorboards and the wiring is exposed throughout the property. The roof is in very good condition but there is no facia and soffit. The windows and doors will have to be replaced. The house is remarkably dry.

At €45k, this property could be a very good investment given it's low price, high potential and close proximity to Dublin. It also comes with an acre of land which faces out onto a trunk road. An independent valuer advised me it could sell for up to €180k if it is renovated properly.

My question is: how much would it cost roughly to bring this property up to a proper living standard so that I can later sell it on the open market?

I would be really grateful for your advice

Sleeper12

Blackwater28 wrote: »

Hello

I would be really grateful if somebody out there could give me an indication of the costs involved in renovating a (more or less) derelict property.

I am considering purchasing an investment property (I'm a first time buyer) which is located on a prime one acre site on the N3 in Co.Meath. It is a two minute drive from the new M3 motorway and is just 45 minutes from the airport. It is an executor sale and the asking price is €45k. It is a two up, two down property with a very small kitchen at the rear.

However, the property itself is extremely dilapidated and is currently uninhabitable. For example, there is no toilet, bath, shower, hand basin etc, no central heating, no septic tank, no water tank, no plumbing as such (there is only a cold tap in the kitchen), there is no insulation whatsoever, the plastering is in poor condition, there is a hole in one of the floorboards and the wiring is exposed throughout the property. The roof is in very good condition but there is no facia and soffit. The windows and doors will have to be replaced. The house is remarkably dry.

At €45k, this property could be a very good investment given it's low price, high potential and close proximity to Dublin. It also comes with an acre of land which faces out onto a trunk road. An independent valuer advised me it could sell for up to €180k if it is renovated properly.

My question is: how much would it cost roughly to bring this property up to a proper living standard so that I can later sell it on the open market?

I would be really grateful for your advice

It could be cheaper to totally gut it or even knock it down & start from scratch. It would be a better job

Blackwater28

Thanks for your response tpmcompany1. It's a semi detached house I'm afraid so it would be difficult to demolish it. Do you think it would cost more than the house itself (€45k) to bring it up to standard?

BryanF

first time investor with no construction cost experience.. Are you going to live in this house or just try to do it up on the cheap and sell? Bit of a risk? How close do you live to it? How much construction experience do you have? How much will the bank lend you to do it up? Are you prepared to wait a few months until it's got planning for a septic tank? Have you type of job where you an take time off to manage the Reno? Are you suited to property speculation?

Blackwater28

Thanks for your reply BryanF. I don't plan to live in this house. I know it's a risk but at €45k on one acre of land and on a trunk road I recognise that it could be a good investment. I'm currently living in London (I work in finance) so I don't have any construction experience but given the nature of my job I think I might be suited to property speculation. The extent of that speculation will probably start and finish with this particular property though! I have family living in the area who could monitor the refurbishment.

Do you think I could hire a building a building contractor to carry out those works and could I get it done for about €50k?

Sleeper12

Blackwater28 wrote: »

Thanks for your response tpmcompany1. It's a semi detached house I'm afraid so it would be difficult to demolish it. Do you think it would cost more than the house itself (€45k) to bring it up to standard?

I am not a builder but I would think so.
It'll cost €14k to insulate the outside of the house. This will leave a painted finish. Windows & doors I'm guessing €6k. Plumbing over €10k. Rewiring €6k (guess). Haven't a clue about septic tank. You'll have skip hire plastering, painting inside, carpets / laminate, curtain poles, curtains, furniture, possibly replacement kitchen cabinets, a new ber cert when work is done etc.
II'd say well over €45k.
II'm sure you will get more replies here giving you a better idea.
If you have a builder bring him along. He'll give you a close price.

dpofloinn

Hey OP hard to give you any specifics but I would estimate that you will need a minimum of 50k plus 10% contingency money to get it to a very basic standard. Do you plan to buy it outright or will you be using a mortgage.If you are using a mortgage you may not get approval as the house is uninhabitable. I would strongly advise you to get a proper engineers report on the structure before you go any further, just because it might look sound doesn't make it so.

Blackwater28

That's probably the most sensible thing to do dpofloinn. Also, I have already instructed a building surveyor to ascertain what defects there are in the property. Apparently, a building surveyor can give a rough estimate of the costs involved in bringing the property up to standard. The house will be bought outright.

All i really want to know is whether €50k would cover most of the following bearing in mind it's quite a small, basic house?

Septic tank
Re-wiring
plumbing/water tank
Central heating
Insulation, dry-lining and plastering
Bathroom with partition - shower, toilet and hand basin
Windows and front and back door
Fitted kitchen
Sofit and facia

knipex

Blackwater28 wrote: »

That's probably the most sensible thing to do dpofloinn. Also, I have already instructed a building surveyor to ascertain what defects there are in the property. Apparently, a building surveyor can give a rough estimate of the costs involved in bringing the property up to standard. The house will be bought outright.

All i really want to know is whether €50k would cover most of the following bearing in mind it's quite a small, basic house?

Septic tank
Re-wiring
plumbing/water tank
Central heating
Insulation, dry-lining and plastering
Bathroom with partition - shower, toilet and hand basin
Windows and front and back door
Fitted kitchen
Sofit and facia

If you gave no building experience and will have to contract it all out I don't think 50 will cover it.

With ground works for septic tank first and second fixing of electrics and plumbing plus all the interior construction. Then add windows doors insulation finishing etc I cannot see you done for less than 65 to 70k..

Plus you have not mentioned central heating system.

But without seeing drawing so or an engineers report that's a completely random guess.

dpofloinn

Hey OP these prices are very general and should not be taken as the gospel truth but it will give you an idea as to what you are looking at. It all hinges on what standard of finish you are aiming to achieve, this will give you a rough price for the most basic standard. Good Kitchens can be got for as little as 1K if you are willing to compromise and an OK bathroom suite can be got for E250 without the shower

Septic tank 7K
Re-wiring 6K
plumbing/water Central heating 10K
Insulation, dry-lining and plastering 8K
Bathroom with partition - shower, toilet and hand basin 3K
Windows and front and back door 1K per window/door
Fitted kitchen 3k
Sofit and facia 1k

knipex

dpofloinn wrote: »

Hey OP these prices are very general and should not be taken as the gospel truth but it will give you an idea as to what you are looking at. It all hinges on what standard of finish you are aiming to achieve, this will give you a rough price for the most basic standard. Good Kitchens can be got for as little as 1K if you are willing to compromise and an OK bathroom suite can be got for E250 without the shower

Septic tank 7K
Re-wiring 6K
plumbing/water Central heating 10K
Insulation, dry-lining and plastering 8K
Bathroom with partition - shower, toilet and hand basin 3K
Windows and front and back door 1K per window/door
Fitted kitchen 3k
Sofit and facia 1k

Don't forget flooring, painting, internal doors, skirting, tiling, light fittings, curtains, kitchen appliances, wardrobes cupboards, ground works new septic tank, oil tank or gas connection etc etc etc....

Tefral

Can you give a rough sq/m floor area of the house OP?

K.Flyer

The first thing that comes to my mind is,
If it is such a bargain why has it not been snapped up sooner?
As you have been advised already..
Get a structural engineer to take a good look at it first.
It may be so old that there are no foundations, or the entire roof may need repairing!
Paying him now may save you thousands in heartache down the road. And do not get a local chap to do it, they may know the seller or the auctioneers and go light on the report.

BryanF

Blackwater28 wrote: »

Do you think I could hire a building a building contractor to carry out those works and could I get it done for about €50k?

• you need to hire a strcutural engineer to do the planning and sign-off of septic tank and any other unforeseen items the building shows up
• you need a QS to price and manage the budget
• if you have family that have the time and energy to manage a builder great. otherwise you may want to employ an architect/project manger for the reno duration

50k - vat - septic tank - contractor setup, waste removal & security etc - insurances - professional fees = X to actually purchase materials and pay for labour/contractor do the work.


I'm not saving its not a good investment, it may well be, but we have no idea of the buildings condition or size, so id suggest your 50K 'finger in the air' stuff would be better at 150K

Blackwater28

cronin_j wrote: »

Can you give a rough sq/m floor area of the house OP?

Thanks Cronin J - these are the dimensions of the property:

Livingroom
2.86 x 4.97
(9` 4`` x 16` 3``)

Diningroom
2.80 x 3.36
(9` 2`` x 11` 0``)

Kitchen
1.51 x 3.82
(5` 0`` x 12` 6``)

Bedroom 1
2.66 x 4.96
(8` 9`` x 16` 3``)

Bedroom 2
4.96 x 3.20
(16` 3`` x 10` 6``)

Blackwater28

K.Flyer wrote: »

The first thing that comes to my mind is,
If it is such a bargain why has it not been snapped up sooner?
As you have been advised already..
Get a structural engineer to take a good look at it first.
It may be so old that there are no foundations, or the entire roof may need repairing!
Paying him now may save you thousands in heartache down the road. And do not get a local chap to do it, they may know the seller or the auctioneers and go light on the report.

The property belongs to a deceased relative of mine. It was on the open market four years ago for €80,000 and there was significant interest in it. However, I requested the executor of my deceased relative's estate to withdraw the property from the market because I was interested in purchasing it and I have now come to an agreement with the executor to purchase the property in a private sale for €45,000. The property is under a charitable trust so the proceeds are goining to a local charity. It is perfectly legal and a local auctioneer has certified its value at €45,000.

The house is not that old; it was built in the 1930's and was lived in up until about 8 years ago.

Is there anyway I can post a picture of it on this site?

Tefral

Blackwater28 wrote: »

Thanks Cronin J - these are the dimensions of the property:

Livingroom
2.86 x 4.97
(9` 4`` x 16` 3``)

Diningroom
2.80 x 3.36
(9` 2`` x 11` 0``)

Kitchen
1.51 x 3.82
(5` 0`` x 12` 6``)

Bedroom 1
2.66 x 4.96
(8` 9`` x 16` 3``)

Bedroom 2
4.96 x 3.20
(16` 3`` x 10` 6``)

is that all on the ground floor?

Working in finance, you would take risks based upon the best information that you can get your hands on before pressing the button. I work as a QS so I am Biased but to be honest OP you need to follow the advice already given.

1. Think about what level you want to complete the house to.
2. Get an engineer to look over the property and this will give you a go-no go to proceed.
3. Speak to a Quantity Surveyor that will visit the property and do you up a BOQ - that will give you the outlay that you will have to spend to get it to the standard in item 1
4. If its within your budget, buy the house and get the QS to put the works out to Tender with the BOQ you already paid.

Its better spending €1000 on the engineer and QS now than spending thousands putting something right later on.

Blackwater28 wrote: »

Is there anyway I can post a picture of it on this site?

Dropbox maybe? Plans would help too.

Blackwater28

BryanF wrote: »

• you need to hire a strcutural engineer
• you need a QS to price and manage the budget
• if you have family that have the time and energy to manage a builder great. otherwise you may want to employ an architect/project manger for the reno duration

50k - vat - septic tank - contractor setup, waste removal & security etc - insurances - professional fees = X to actually purchase materials and pay for labour/contractor do the work.


I'm not saving its not a good investment, it may well be, but we have no idea of the buildings condition or size, so id suggest your 50K 'finger in the air' stuff would be better at 150K

The building surveyor I have instructed is also an architect. Can he perform the same services as a structural engineer to do the planning and sign-off of on the septic tank and any other unforeseen items the property shows up?

Blackwater28

cronin_j wrote: »

is that all on the ground floor?

Working in finance, you would take risks based upon the best information that you can get your hands on before pressing the button. I work as a QS so I am Biased but to be honest OP you need to follow the advice already given.

1. Think about what level you want to complete the house to.
2. Get an engineer to look over the property and this will give you a go-no go to proceed.
3. Speak to a Quantity Surveyor that will visit the property and do you up a BOQ - that will give you the outlay that you will have to spend to get it to the standard in item 1
4. If its within your budget, buy the house and get the QS to put the works out to Tender with the BOQ you already paid.

Its better spending €1000 on the engineer and QS now than spending thousands putting something right later on.



Dropbox maybe? Plans would help too.

I will of course follow the advice that I have been given, it has been extremely helpful and has really opened my eyes to the pitfalls involved in renovating a house.

Those dimensions are for the whole house, both upstairs and downstairs. As I said, its a simple two up-two down house with a small kitchen at the rear

Blackwater28

cronin_j wrote: »

is that all on the ground floor?

Working in finance, you would take risks based upon the best information that you can get your hands on before pressing the button. I work as a QS so I am Biased but to be honest OP you need to follow the advice already given.

1. Think about what level you want to complete the house to.
2. Get an engineer to look over the property and this will give you a go-no go to proceed.
3. Speak to a Quantity Surveyor that will visit the property and do you up a BOQ - that will give you the outlay that you will have to spend to get it to the standard in item 1
4. If its within your budget, buy the house and get the QS to put the works out to Tender with the BOQ you already paid.

Its better spending €1000 on the engineer and QS now than spending thousands putting something right later on.



Dropbox maybe? Plans would help too.

The building surveyor is costing about €450. Any idea how much it would cost to retain a QS to do up a BOQ?

BryanF

Blackwater28 wrote: »

Is there anyway I can post a picture of it on this site?

cronin_j wrote: »

Dropbox maybe? Plans would help too.

i dont see why there is any need for you to put up images of the house? you've gotten constructive advise and a clear route for how you might assess the costs of your speculative project

may I just point out and this is a general mod comment (not a dig at anyone poster )
'no one must seek to gain personally, professionally or financially from their participation in the forum . It is not a consultancy service'
C&P forum charter
price/costs forum charter

Tefral

Blackwater28 wrote: »

The building surveyor is costing about €450. Any idea how much it would cost to retain a QS to do up a BOQ?

About the same. That's why I said €1000

Blackwater28

Thanks Cronin J. I spoke to the Building Surveyor today so the survey is going ahead sometime next week. I'm also informed that there is some type of calor gas, septic tank and water pump system in place so at least they're three less things to worry about unless they're completely beyond repair, which they probably will be if the rest of the property is anything to go by!

Thank you everybody for your helpful comments.