Are AR's classed as classic rifle for target shooting yet?

TicTacDoc

I was having a discussion with a chap about a year or 2 ago about the possibility of AR setups being nearly 20 years old and being able to apply for them as a vintage rifle in S/A condition. Any thoughts on that? do you think it could happen?

Sparks

Short answer, no.

Longer answer, "vintage" and "antique" aren't the same - "antique" gets mentioned in the law a lot but hasn't got an official legal definition (see here).
"Vintage" and "classic" are terms I won't try to define because there are whole NGBs who do that (Sikamick can probably help here), but they don't have any legal definition so for the purposes of licencing aren't relevant.

Practically speaking, any Garda who you try to convince of the vintage/antique status of an AR though, is probably just going to look at you funny...

TicTacDoc

No, I'm wasn't considering sending though a license on that slim a chance, but I was wondering about the merits.

Sparks

As in, should there be classic rifle categories for them? Honestly, wouldn't know, others know a lot more than I do about that and several post here, so I'll leave it to them!

juice1304

TicTacDoc wrote: »

I was having a discussion with a chap about a year or 2 ago about the possibility of AR setups being nearly 20 years old and being able to apply for them as a vintage rifle in S/A condition. Any thoughts on that? do you think it could happen?

Ar's have been around since 1958 in one form or another. The first civilian one was released in 1964.

Grizzly 45

Actually they are older...The grandfather was an AR10[not to be confused with current designations] in 7.62 NATO from 1956 to 1960 to replace the M14.
It was made by Armalite but never adapted by the US armed forces.It was still too radical a technology for its time .

yubabill1

AR10-types are in use now, of course. Designated Marksman squad weapon.

A vintage car used to be 25 years old to qualify for insurance purposes, not sure if they have extended it to 30 years?

The AR would qualify either way, but AGS/ MoJ/EU would like us to continue with our 19th century equipment.

The only other sport still using equipment dating back to then is probably cricket .

Sparks

yubabill1 wrote: »

The only other sport still using equipment dating back to then is probably cricket .

Yes, but to be fair, when a Vickers 1920s era rifle will hold the ten ring at 50m well enough to make the shooter the weak link in the chain for all but maybe four or five shooters in the country, it's not a huge cause for concern

tac foley

Classic rifle, as defined by the Vintage Arms Association, is ANY design of firearm that pre-dates 1933.

Of course, here in UK that lets out ANY semi-auto centrefire rifle or carbine.

Even the much-loved M1 Garand is therefore left out - as it was not fully developed until 1936. Back when I had mine, prior to 1988, I could shoot it in any practical rifle competition, but not under the aegis of either the VAA or the HBSA [Historical Breech-loading Small-arms Association.

Of course, in Ireland there are a number of associations in which classic and vintage rifles may be shot - including one that specialises in the Lee-Enfield variants. The VCRAI, in particular, has members [including me] with examples of most manually-operated rifles and carbines, mainly military in origin.

tac

Grizzly 45

yubabill1 wrote: »

AR10-types are in use now, of course. Designated Marksman squad weapon.

NOT quite true either. The whole concept of the designated squad marksman is kind of stopgap too.He is the guy /gal who shoots the best of your squad with his '16,so give him the scope for his M16 rifle and hope he becomes a "sniper on the cheap."If you look at pics or footage of whats being used in "Ghanistan,you will find as usual Uncle Sams wayward children making do with what they can scrounge or get from home to better their lot.This could be anything from a armoury tuned M16 with whatever scope stuck on it.Reissued M14s which are still the gun of choice due to its reliability in high dust conditions,and some "aquired" bolt actions.

The AR10 DMR is made by Knights armament Company [KAC 25]and is still questionable whether it will become issued kit for the reasons of .Is it cheaper to tune up a bunch of M14s in mothballs with a new fancy stock and scope,or issue them as is or to buy into a new weapons system,that uses a now non issue military round?
Not much help if you are being overrun and your DMR is out of action due to lack of ammo.

Sparks

/points to the Military forum as a much better place to discuss the ins and outs of US Military tactics in the modern era than a sports forum...

Grizzly 45

Only pointng out the difference of the AR10 designation lest certain elements of the PTB are reading here and immediately jump to the conclusion that "AH the AR10 is a total military sniper system with no sporting purpose ,etc,etc,," and slap us wiith that as well.:pac:

tac foley

The AR10 is not now and never has been a 'military sniper'.

In the British Armed forces, the MOS of 'designated marksman' recently became a reality with the adoption of the Lewis Machine Tool semi-auto in 7.62x51 NATO.

'The L129A1 Sharpshooter Rifle has been adopted by the British MoD to replace the Accuracy International L96 series for Designated Marksmen. The MoD set about creating an internal sharpshooter program to which Lewis Machine & Tool submitted a modified form of their excellent 7.62mm LM308MWS rifle. After an extensive evaluation process, the L129A1 was selected for further consideration as it managed to hit "on target" in successive shots which bode extremely well for the product. Additionally, LMT harbored its own certified manufacturing facilities which certainly helped its proposal. The LM308MWS was pitted against top contenders in the German Heckler & Koch HK417 and the Belgian Fabrique-National SCAR-17. The end result saw the LM308 accepted as the newest British Army firearm to come along in decades - designated in the British Army inventory as the "L129A1" and modified for the rigours of combat.

Here in UK we can actually buy a straight-pull version of this rifle in .308Win or even .22LR - both are £3500.00 bare of any accessories.

tac

EWQuinn

http://www.avguns.com/class3/machine_guns/colt-armalite-ar15-m01.html

Because of the age original ARs and Colt SP-1s are now coming onto the "Curio & Relic" (C&R) list in the US. Link is a real nice "vintage" one from a police armory. Here in US this is more definitive than talking in terms of "classic" or "vintage", but if its 50 years old it more or less fits that category in my book. Practically speaking its age is not going to make it easier to obtain.

For me the "AR" stands for "Accurate Rifle". As such its a classic

Grizzly 45

No forward bolt assist.That is an old machine alright.:)

driftkingire

i was always under the impression that you couldnt get a licence for any semi auto larger than a .22 magnum in ireland?

Witcher

driftkingire wrote: »

i was always under the impression that you couldnt get a licence for any semi auto larger than a .22 magnum in ireland?

You can.

driftkingire

are they restricted?

Witcher

driftkingire wrote: »

are they restricted?

Yeah, centrefire semi automatics are all restricted.

tac foley

There are a very few of them around. Convincing your super that it its what is needed is the real hurdle since there is no doubt as to their military origins.

The REAL classic semi-auto is, of course, the M1 Garand, but that is only my opinion. It has no 'resonance' by association here/there in the island of Ireland, unlike any of the ARs.

tac, former owner of a Rock Island Arsenal [1945] M1 Garand - the finest battle rifle in the world, after the Lee-Enfield, of course.

driftkingire

ok cool, id say it would be a tall order convincing the super you needed one alright,lol. especially as there as tactical as you could get and as far as im aware tactical rifles are frowned upon by our enlightened masters in the dail. if we lived in thailand were the government is overthrown every year or so i could understand why they would not like them being sold over the counter but its not like every tom dick and harry would even buy one over here. ive never seen such a bunch of buzzkills anywhere bigger than the bunch of muppets we have for politicians. dont get me wrong tho, high power semi auto rifles shouldnt be that easy to get anyway but id say it would be easier to get a lift to mars than get an ar over here.

Victor

Sparks wrote: »

Longer answer, "vintage" and "antique" aren't the same - "antique" gets mentioned in the law a lot but hasn't got an official legal definition (see here).

The 'usual' definition of an antique is something more than 100 years old. https://www.google.ie/search?q=antique+is+something+more+than+100+years+old&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb&gws_rd=cr&ei=SLuPU4PIEsaf7AaI3YBA

driftkingire

if you had a gun that was 100 years old id say it would be more dangerous as a club than a firearm.

tac foley

driftkingire wrote: »

if you had a gun that was 100 years old id say it would be more dangerous as a club than a firearm.

That's an interesting opinion.

AAMOI, I shoot a gun made in 1861 out to 600 yards, and at that distance the 535gr soft lead bullet sure ain't goin' to bounce off. Four of my military calibre rifles - two 7x57, a 6.5x55 and a 7.5x55 are older than 100 years, as well.

Sure, with ME shooting you'd be more likely to die from being clubbed than hit, but it's not something I'd like to have to prove.

tac

Grizzly 45

driftkingire wrote: »

if you had a gun that was 100 years old id say it would be more dangerous as a club than a firearm.

Not necessarily...How many 1896 Mauser "Broom handle" pistols are still being shot on a daily basis?Well over a 100 year old gun. I've a single shot .410 "poachers shotgun" that I still shoot occasionaly .Had that gun 38 years and started my shooting life with it.Still plenty of old Wincherster 1896 pump actions alive and well and doing what they do best or being used in cowboy action shoots.OK a lot have switched to the Norinco copy because of the lack of a disconnector in the orginal so it can be "slam fired" by holding the trigger and working the slide.

Go to Africa on safari and you will proably find your guide[If he is an old Africa hand] toting a double barrel rifle that was made in the last century and is still working on a day to day basis that he proably inherited from his mentor and has been fully refurbished.
Age means nothing to a gun if it has been properly looked after,they are inherently stable objects whose cheif enemies are rust and politicans.:p

Grizzly 45

driftkingire wrote: »

ok cool, id say it would be a tall order convincing the super you needed one alright,lol. especially as there as tactical as you could get and as far as im aware tactical rifles are frowned upon by our enlightened masters in the dail. if we lived in thailand were the government is overthrown every year or so i could understand why they would not like them being sold over the counter but its not like every tom dick and harry would even buy one over here. ive never seen such a bunch of buzzkills anywhere bigger than the bunch of muppets we have for politicians. dont get me wrong tho, high power semi auto rifles shouldnt be that easy to get anyway but id say it would be easier to get a lift to mars than get an ar over here.

Cheif Super that is....:)
And dont be put off as yes it has and can be done.However,you might be better getting a less aggressive looking civillian version.IE without bayonet lugs ,flash hider carrying handle and a std 10 round mag ,blocked to five,and with a round tube grip without it bristling with picitinny rails.
Theres nothing stopping you adding tacticool bits to it later once your restricted liscense is granted,although a lot of them are pointless in a peace time situation.I haven't yet needed to fix bayonet and charge the paper target down at the range.:D [Although the way I shoot some times,some folks might agree that's my better option.:D:D]

Bottom line is the AR platform in its Modular Sporting or Repeating Rifle configuration is as far removed from a "Assault rifle" as a Lee Enfield SMLE is from a modern sporting target rifle built on a Lee Enfield action.

tac foley

See - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbatynKG1Sw

500gr bullet @1650 fps = 3-40 ft lbs....and that's the HALF-load.

This lovely old double rifle was made in 1897, BTW.

...and this? Boer War Mauser carbine in 7x57 - fires it's 175gr round-nosed bullet at 2250 fps - that's 1977 ft lbs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ygxIdeTtdE

Old doesn't mean harmless, y'know

tac

Victor

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Go to Africa on safari and you will proably find your guide[If he is an old Africa hand] toting a double barrel rifle that was made in the last century

The last century or the previous one?

tac foley

Victor wrote: »

The last century or the previous one?

The W. SCott double rifle that I'm shooting in the movie was built in 1897.

THIS double rifle, in .450NE, was being targetted prior to going out to Namibia a couple of years ago - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Yw7rYJWUUE

It was made by G. Lewis in 1898 - check these figures - bullet - 480 gr (31 g) Lead 2,150 ft/s (660 m/s) 4,930 ft·lbf (6,680 J).

Still think that 100-y/o guns are harmless? :O

tac

driftkingire

i apologise if i offended anyone with my comment the other day, i meant it as a joke but on reflection i can see how it could have offended some people. i didnt mean too.

tac foley

Hey, it didn't offend moi!

Gave me an opportunity to show things that you might not have seen, though.

Thanks for that!

tac