So sick and tired of it

simplybam

I was originally just gonna post a reply to this thread which started as a thread about the resignation of a muppet, wannabe politician and quickly turned into yet another German-bashing thread.

So here goes:

What's all this talk about other peoples' debts and everything is the Germans' fault?

Was it all the Germans coming to Ireland getting mortgages of 10-15 times their annual income to buy houses they couldn't afford? Was it the Germans who were in government in this country and taking bribes left, right and center from their buddies in order to give them planning permission for yet another estate of overpriced property? Were Dunne, Quinn, etc. German?

Ireland has for years been one of the few western European countries that received more money from the EU than it contributed (the others being Greece, Portugal, Spain and Belgium - which isn't really a country and so shouldn't count). A considerable part of the Irish infrastructure was paid for by the EU. Just walk or drive around and note the signs everywhere - from motorways to museums - 'part-financed by the EU'

It was the Irish financial regulator who played a big part in the banking crisis by not doing their job. Irish businesses and consumers played a big part as well by over-exposing themselves and taking out loans on the assumption that the property bubble won't blow up in their face. Irish banks did the exact same thing. Admittedly, banks in other countries did that too, but they were big enough to absorb a big chunk in losses without having to be bailed out entirely by their governments.

So how about this for a novel idea? Maybe take a break from the German-bashing and have a look what they're doing right? How can they afford to bail out half of the euro-zone? Ever thought of maybe trying to learn something from them rather than just blaming them for everything?

So why not come off your high horse and have a read of this. Another thing that might be of interest and give you and the government of this coutry some ideas, is this

Or check out this video with some background of what makes Germany successful:

Or maybe this will make you feel better since it shows how the Brits fcuked up:

So, go on - explain how everything is ze Germans' fault

bootybouncer

Its that **** Ewan Mac Kennas fault

jane82

I dont know why they wont increase the business tax to the same as everyone else in europes but keep coming up with new taxes for the average man.

dissed doc

simplybam wrote: »

What's all this talk about other peoples' debts and everything is the Germans' fault?
.....

So, go on - explain how everything is ze Germans' fault

You are fighting an uphill battle with what passes for consensus among many mainstream thinkers in Ireland. It's the new finger-pointing and Germany has replaced the UK when discussing economic problems. It's the Brits fault? It's the Germans fault now.

And people ironically forget that Germany has been the largest single donator of money to Ireland since we joined the EU. That is, money that does not need to be paid back and is purely for Ireland's own development. The money their government has literally handed over for decades is way more than anything from the UK or other countries.

simplybam

jane82 wrote: »

I dont know why they wont increase the business tax to the same as everyone else in europes but keep coming up with new taxes for the average man.

That's because politicians are owned by business and of course they won't mess with their mates - never mind risking to lose all those back-handers they're getting

KyussBishop

It's largely Germany that is blocking all attempts at fixing the problem in the EU - that is their fault.

This "well we made our bed, now we have to lie in it" type of argument in the OP, is just a very weak moral argument, and a masochistic one at that - which doesn't serve a useful purpose in resolving our problems.

kneemos

Responsible for the low interest rates that began the madness is all I can think of.

Arthur Beesley

Wouldn't be a fan of the Germans. A leopard never changes it's spots.

Little CuChulainn

My understanding is that our banks were loaned money from their banks so their banks should also have felt some heat from our crash. However the buck stopped with us and we got stuck with all the debt.

Amirani

KyussBishop wrote: »

It's largely Germany that is blocking all attempts at fixing the problem in the EU - that is their fault.

This "well we made our bed, now we have to lie in it" type of argument in the OP, is just a very weak moral argument, and a masochistic one at that - which doesn't serve a useful purpose in resolving our problems.

There's essentially no alternative action that Ireland can take given ECB (as you say, German driven) policy. Without control of monetary policy, the only logical action for Ireland is to reduce the fiscal deficit.

tomwaterford

ya,,,Germany the great success...with there widespread use of intern/apprenticeship type schemes....not something im totally against....but to suggest the econmies are comparable is limited

Dyr

dissed doc wrote: »

You are fighting an uphill battle with what passes for consensus among many mainstream thinkers in Ireland. It's the new finger-pointing and Germany has replaced the UK when discussing economic problems. It's the Brits fault? It's the Germans fault now.

And people ironically forget that Germany has been the largest single donator of money to Ireland since we joined the EU. That is, money that does not need to be paid back and is purely for Ireland's own development. The money their government has literally handed over for decades is way more than anything from the UK or other countries.

is it more than we paid to cover the debts of EU banks?

Amirani

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

My understanding is that our banks were loaned money from their banks so their banks should also have felt some heat from our crash. However the buck stopped with us and we got stuck with all the debt.

The role of German banks in the demise of the Irish banking sector has been hugely overstated.

simplybam

KyussBishop wrote: »

It's largely Germany that is blocking all attempts at fixing the problem in the EU - that is their fault.

This "well we made our bed, now we have to lie in it" type of argument in the OP, is just a very weak moral argument, and a masochistic one at that - which doesn't serve a useful purpose in resolving our problems.

Well, do elaborate, please! What do you suggest? Having all the debt just written off? Happy b'day Ireland? Here ye go, have some 10s of billions of Euros for free to sort out the mess you got yourself into?

tomwaterford

dissed doc wrote: »

You are fighting an uphill battle with what passes for consensus among many mainstream thinkers in Ireland. It's the new finger-pointing and Germany has replaced the UK when discussing economic problems. It's the Brits fault? It's the Germans fault now.

And people ironically forget that Germany has been the largest single donator of money to Ireland since we joined the EU. That is, money that does not need to be paid back and is purely for Ireland's own development. The money their government has literally handed over for decades is way more than anything from the UK or other countries.

ironically enough it was british banks entering the irish market with 100% mortgauges drove it mad...they suffered some crazy losses aswel (the irish banks were well on there way to ruin anyway)

KyussBishop

Diego Simeone wrote: »

There's essentially no alternative action that Ireland can take given ECB (as you say, German driven) policy. Without control of monetary policy, the only logical action for Ireland is to reduce the fiscal deficit.

The EU (again, Germany) have a lot of alternative policies they could implement, but yes, same problem.

Locally in Ireland, we do have other options also, but our government/academia are ruled by economic views, which make these alternatives impossible also.

There are alternatives, just (both in Europe and in Ireland) not the political will for them.

mickydoomsux

Diego Simeone wrote: »

The role of German banks in the demise of the Irish banking sector has been hugely overstated.

Well we have to blame someone!

The alternative is that the country turned into greedy idiots for roughly a decade.

Surely that isn't possible?

keith16

simplybam wrote: »

Well, do elaborate, please! What do you suggest? Having all the debt just written off? Happy b'day Ireland? Here ye go, have some 10s of billions of Euros for free to sort out the mess you got yourself into?

gib monies plox germoni

KyussBishop

simplybam wrote: »

Well, do elaborate, please! What do you suggest? Having all the debt just written off? Happy b'day Ireland? Here ye go, have some 10s of billions of Euros for free to sort out the mess you got yourself into?

That's one option, yes - the ECB could make those debts disappear overnight.

Do you have anything other than a weak 'Ireland must suffer for its mistakes' moral argument, against this?

mickydoomsux

tomwaterford wrote: »

ironically enough it was british banks entering the irish market with 100% mortgauges drove it mad...they suffered some crazy losses aswel (the irish banks were well on there way to ruin anyway)

Yeah, damn those Brit banks and their pressgangs that were dragging people into their branches to sign loan documents to buy brand new cars every two years to go with their €400k ****box in the middle of nowhere in Meath.

Stojkovic

I stopped reading at 'center' !!!

Also how is Belgium not a country ?
They've been a country longer than us.

Anyway to answer your question - yes its all the Germans fault. No wonder Irish and Scousers are related - always the victims its never your fault. 800 years of blaming the Brits, we couldnt pin this one on them.

Groundsource

[QUOTE So, go on - explain how everything is ze Germans' fault[/QUOTE]

I never read such crap. Who's brain child was the single currency, ze german's. In they're quest to rule Europe they fcuked it up for everyone.:mad:

simplybam

Stojkovic wrote: »

. 800 years of blaming the Brits, we couldnt pin this one on them.

Actually you could, since roughly 80% of the money backing Irish banks came from UK banks. So there ye go - it was the Brits all over again

tomwaterford

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Yeah, damn those Brit banks and their pressgangs that were dragging people into their branches to sign loan documents to buy brand new cars every two years to go with their €400k ****box in the middle of nowhere in Meath.

they learned there lesson...with some crazy losses having to be covered by the UK

tomwaterford

simplybam wrote: »

Actually you could, since roughly 80% of the money backing Irish banks came from UK banks. So there ye go - it was the Brits all over again

a lot of them come through financial sector in London...not entirely britins fault TBF

sillyoulfool

jane82 wrote: »

I dont know why they wont increase the business tax to the same as everyone else in europes but keep coming up with new taxes for the average man.

Great idea, lets lose jobs instead of creating them.:rolleyes:

Amirani

KyussBishop wrote: »

The EU (again, Germany) have a lot of alternative policies they could implement, but yes, same problem.

Locally in Ireland, we do have other options also, but our government/academia are ruled by economic views, which make these alternatives impossible also.

There are alternatives, just (both in Europe and in Ireland) not the political will for them.

And these are?

KyussBishop

Diego Simeone wrote: »

And these are?

I posted a thread in economics on it here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057100005

Better to address it in that thread, than this one.

Essentially, it would allow us room to deficit spend while staying in the Euro (but only within certain limits), without increasing interest payments on public debt, and it would put in place all of the infrastructure/payment systems needed, to exit the Euro sometime in the future - and exit quickly, without the highly-damaging transition period lasting long (just a side-benefit; we could stay in the Euro if we wanted).

NZ_2014

You have to admire ze Germans in a way they are very efficient

Aongus Von Bismarck

Excellent post OP!

You've hit the nail on the head with that one, unfortunately it will fall on deaf ears and the people who have all of the questions and none of the answers will continue to try and find someone to blame and find and easy out, rather than knuckle down and accept the unfortunately tough fiscal measures needed to get back on track.

Groundsource

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

Excellent post OP!

You've hit the nail on the head with that one, unfortunately it will fall on deaf ears and the people who have all of the questions and none of the answers will continue to try and find someone to blame and find and easy out, rather than knuckle down and accept the unfortunately tough fiscal measures needed to get back on track.

Oh Ze Germans are in town.

.jacksparrow.

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

My understanding is that our banks were loaned money from their banks so their banks should also have felt some heat from our crash. However the buck stopped with us and we got stuck with all the debt.

Yep, 42% of Europe's debt we took on.

We got the **** end of the stick.

SEPT 23 1989

They have gained more power in the last 15 years than Adolf could ever dreamed of

and they did not have to fire a shot to achieve it

tomwaterford

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Yep, 42% of Europe's debt we took on.

We got the **** end of the stick.

it don't matter really as well not pay it....mathematically impossibility

The One Doctor

Personally, I blame the Irish, not the Germans.

KyussBishop

Who cares about blame anyway, at this point it's a little late for that to mean anything...right now (or well, 5+ years ago) we should be looking at solutions (of which there are plenty), and look at creating the political will for them.

No though, lets just debate whether it's Ireland's fault or Germany's, or Europe's etc...

myshirt

Sher wasn't it the Germans who invented gayness.

tomwaterford

KyussBishop wrote: »

Who cares about blame anyway, at this point it's a little late for that to mean anything...right now (or well, 5+ years ago) we should be looking at solutions (of which there are plenty), and look at creating the political will for them.

No though, lets just debate whether it's Ireland's fault or Germany's, or Europe's etc...

5+ years Ireland will be looking at another bailout as its bailout loans fall due

KyussBishop

tomwaterford wrote: »

5+ years Ireland will be looking at another bailout as its bailout loans fall due

Don't forget bail-ins as well Cyprus set the precedent, for how this will all happen going forward.

Lapin

simplybam wrote: »

Ireland has for years been one of the few western European countries that received more money from the EU than it contributed (the others being Greece, Portugal, Spain and Belgium - which isn't really a country and so shouldn't count).

Have you a source for this bit of muppetry in an otherwise decent post OP?