GPS

Halloween Jack

Howdy,


Following on from a recent discussion, im considering dipping my toe in handheld GPS waters.

Firstly, im not 100% sure how they work/how best to use one. As far as i understand it is necessary to buy maps to download onto the device before use, is this the case? If so, how good are the maps and are they expensive?

Secondly, I believe i can download routes others have done and follow them as a guide on my own walk, from say mountainviews is this correct?

Thirdly can anybody recommend a particular brand or unit? I'd probably be in the low to middle bracket in terms of how much i want to spend. Ive used a low end Garmin watch for running and found it does the job fine, am probably looking at the E-trex 20, does anybody have any experience with this model good or bad?

Many thanks in advance for any responses.

Pat Mustard

1. With some GPS units, you can download the free maps from the Scottish Mountaineering Club and use those. A considerable cost saving there. With other units, you have to buy their maps. The maps can be expensive.

2. Don't know actually.

3. I think that the best way to go is to check customer reviews of various GPS units within your price range. Amazon UK is a good place to check, because there are so many customer reviews.

I'd say that many people would recommend Garmin to you. I certainly would. I bought mine a few years ago and I've never had much difficulty with it. In fact, I would say that the only difficulty that I experienced was that the software on my Garmin may have been slightly awkward to use in order to put the SMC maps onto my GPS.

You need a sensitive receiver, that will tell you where you are on a map. Some older GPS units could not tell you where you were if you were in a wooded area. You need the GPS to be relatively tough, because you may drop it. It would be an advantage if it was water resistant or waterproof. The battery life of the GPS is important for people who may not be well prepared with spare batteries. The type of batteries used are important. Are they AA batteries or expensive rechargeable batteries. I suppose that ease of use is important.

This was the GPS that you mentioned.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Garmin-eTrex-Outdoor-Handheld-Unit/dp/B00542NVDW/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1399484851&sr=8-2&keywords=hiking+gps
Good reviews.

For slightly more money, you could get this:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Garmin-010-00422-01-GPSMAP-60CSx-Handheld/dp/B000FMLUXY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1399486154&sr=8-1&keywords=GPSmap+60Scx
This is the GPS that I have. It is tough and waterproof, with a good battery life, and it is sensitive and accurate. I'm not sure if a lot of the newer and/or more expensive units are as good.

Another GPS unit came out a couple of years ago. The Satmap Active 10. It had a lot of promise. It had a large screen and it used OS maps. However, it was expensive, the maps were expensive, the screen was fragile, the batteries were expensive, and I'm not sure if the unit was waterproof or if the batteries were long-lasting. I don't know if you can use the SMC maps on this unit. Apart from that, this GPS really looked fantastic.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Satmap-Active-10-Plus-GPS/dp/B001WJNUHI
There is a more updated version now, which is even more expensive; Satmap Active 12.

Halloween Jack

Many thanks for the info,much to think about. How costly are the maps for your garmin as opposed to using the SMC maps?

duckysauce

1. Maps are the same as the OSI ones bit pricey cheapest ones after a small bit of looking was here


http://www.amazon.com/Garmin-EIRE-Discoverer-Ireland-microSD/dp/B003IPC4WQ/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1399494288&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=eire+disvoverer


you will find cheaper or if you do more digging,or you will find other ways of getting them

2. Gpx tracks -- Mountainviews.ie, Everytrail.com, http://www.wikiloc.com,


3. I have had a garmin oregon 450t for last few years and cannot fault it. Other popular device is the satmap , was a bit too bulky for me .

Halloween Jack

Jeez the maps seem pricey, if I have it correctly the unit is practically useless without the maps, it would just track my movements on an empty, featureless screen much like my watch does? Sorry for the repeated questions.

duckysauce

Halloween Jack wrote: »

Jeez the maps seem pricey, if I have it correctly the unit is practically useless without the maps, it would just track my movements on an empty, featureless screen much like my watch does? Sorry for the repeated questions.

Nope this mapping software is free and is what I used when starting off and is very good for a free product. It has contours spot heights trig points etc. http://emerald-island.eu/wikka/GpsMap

As I said if you do a bit of googeling there are alternatives for the high prices
for the discovery series .

Pat Mustard

Halloween Jack wrote: »

How costly are the maps for your garmin as opposed to using the SMC maps?

I looked into it before and I think that I remember that the garmin maps were expensive alright. The SMC maps are free. I don't know if I'd say that they look pretty, but they work, in that you will see your location.

duckysauce wrote: »

Nope this mapping software is free and is what I used when starting off and is very good for a free product. It has contours spot heights trig points etc. http://emerald-island.eu/wikka/GpsMap

Any better than the SMC maps?

Alun

I had the Emerald Isle maps installed on my old etrex Venture and from what I can remember the Emerald Isle and SMC maps are essentially the same, and derived from the same sources. It's worth pointing out to the OP though that they are nothing more than just contours and selected summit waypoints, nothing else .. no roads, tracks or any other features. Better than nothing but not OS quality maps by any means.

The older Garmin units would only accept so-called 'vector' maps, so these maps were the best you could get for Ireland. For the UK you could get vector maps from Garmin, but they weren't really up to much either.

The newer models (new etrex, Oregon, GPSMAP 62/78 etc.) all accept 'raster' maps, i.e. if you can represent it as an image it can be made into a map. The OS maps you can buy are locked to a unit, but it's also possible, with a bit of computer jiggery-pokery, to get any map image you have into a form that can be viewed on a recent model Garmin GPS, either as a KMZ file, or with a firmware modification, JNX BirdsEeye file.

As for which model to go for, it's all down to price. I have an Oregon 550t, but that and the Oregon 450 are now obsolete and replaced by the slightly more expensive Oregon 600 series. It would appear also from various fora that the 600 series is still fraught with a few software problems, so possibly best to avoid until these are sorted out. You may still be able to pick up a 450 or 550 from old stock somewhere which would be a good choice IMO.

The etrex 20 is also a good choice. It is a lot smaller than the Oregon, and doesn't have a touch screen, but has the advantage of being Glonass capable, which can be an advantage in some situations. I've seen a bundle for sale with the etrex 20 plus some vouchers for up to 600 sq km of OSi mapping here http://www.mysatnav.ie/garmin-etrex-20.

As a final note I should add that a GPS is just a tool, just like a map or compass is. Basic navigational skills are essential to using either or both properly and safely in the hills.

EDIT: I should add that some current Garmins have a basic 'recreational' map built in to them, which is pretty basic but also has contours, roads, forest cover, lakes, rivers etc. Again, not really up to OSi standard but better than the SMC maps. You'd have to add your own summit waypoints, but these can be downloaded separately to the maps.

EDIT AGAIN I've just looked at the Garmin website, and it would appear that they've recently added what they call a "TOPO UK and Ireland Light" map as standard to their hand-held GPS lineup for the UK and Ireland market ... it's basically an OSM (Open StreetMap) map plus 50m contours. You'd have to be careful where you bought it from though, if bought online from eBay for example, it may be a slightly different model for a different market with different maps.

http://www.garmin.com/uk/topolight/

BarryD

A GPS device that can display a good map is a boon in terms of hill navigation. I mentioned the importance of map reading recently on another thread and it's important skill to have even with a GPS. With conventional paper map navigation, you must keep track of your position as you move along, you can mentally track your progress on the map. With a GPS your real time position is continuously updated as you move around the surface of the terrain. So for one example, if you are in a col and ascending to a summit and there is a band of rock in the way on the straight line, you can pick a route by eye around the rock band, follow this and then judge from the GPS screen how to steer yourself back onto course. Ditto for getting through forest plantations where visibility is limited and you're not sure which forest road / track junction you are at etc. It's like 'big brother' keeping an eye over your shoulder and giving you your position whenever you need it, though note that most recreational GPS units are receivers not transmitters, so they won't communicate your position to anyone else. A smartphone will of course as it both receives and transmits obviously!!

You've essentially three choices; Garmin or Satmap mentioned above and also ViewRanger running on a smartphone. Each has pros and cons, battery management is a must and always have a paper map backup!

Edited to add a final thought: be wary when downloading routes of walks. These are typically GPX files that the GPS device will import. There are two ways to create these (1) the best is where a walker follows a route, using the device to record the 'track' like a trail of bread crumbs. This can be saved as a GPX file, shared and should be fine (2) the second and dodgy way is where someone creates a GPX track by drawing a route in some screen application, like Google Earth or a map viewer. Clearly they are just guessing in places where the best way to go is by looking at the screen. I've seen some really poor examples of these which direct the walker through dense forest plantation, impossible to follow. Routes in the first category usually have a lot more closely spaced data points, so you might spot that way.

Alun

BarryD wrote: »

With a GPS your real time position is continuously updated as you move around the surface of the terrain. So for one example, if you are in a col and ascending to a summit and there is a band of rock in the way on the straight line, you can pick a route by eye, follow this and then judge from the GPS screen how to steer yourself back onto course. Ditto for getting through forest plantations where visibility is limited and you're not sure which forest road / track junction you are at etc.

You can use a GPS like this, essentially just as a map with a "you are here" indicator, but it's not really fully exploiting it's full capabilities.

In such a case as this, I would simply locate the summit, or track junction I'm heading for, tap on it, set a waypoint and then select it as my destination. Then select the 'compass' screen, and pick my way avoiding whatever obstacles are in the way, safe in the knowledge that once I've avoided them the GPS is still pointing to my chosen destination.

Halloween Jack

Many thanks for the responses lads, much to consider here. I think I'll probably opt for the etrex 20 with the topo maps and see how I get on, will add more maps later if necessary.

I intend it to be a safety net as opposed to the be all and end all in terms of navigation, seeing as I very nearly got lost at the weekend. It was ironic in fact, as we were heading up lug conditions deteriorated, we were able to find the summit thanks to the gps, which died shortly afterward, which meant we were pretty lost. Was able to get down using an OS map and smartphone but it was ropey enough. Had we not had the gps, we wouldn't have carried on to the summit in such poor visibility and therefore not got lost!

Last night I enrolled in a map reading course in great outdoors and I hope to do mountain skills when time allows, so hopefully I'll have all my bases covered in the not too distant future;)

BarryD

Alun wrote: »

In such a case as this, I would simply locate the summit, or track junction I'm heading for, tap on it, set a waypoint and then select it as my destination. Then select the 'compass' screen, and pick my way avoiding whatever obstacles are in the way, safe in the knowledge that once I've avoided them the GPS is still pointing to my chosen destination.

Several different ways to use a GPS and you can certainly use it like you describe. You are essentially implementing an electronic form of a compass, which figures your direction of travel by tracking your movement. Most units work well enough like this as long as you're moving. When you stop, your vector of movement is lost and the devices sense of direction is lost. To get over this, some GPS units have an 'electronic compass' built in which can sense north even when stationary, usually have to be calibrated each time you change batteries etc. You'll know all this Alun, I just mention for benefit of others.

However I'm a map reading man!! If I have a GPS with a decent map, I would always use it like I describe above and leave the both the backup Silva and GPS compass functions 'in the bag'. I can't see any reason to use the compass function on a GPS on the hills, when you have a decent screen map. It would certainly come in handy at sea where you have a continuous expanse of mostly featureless sea to cross. Where the 'electronic compass' does come in handy in how I would use it, is that I typically set the map to 'auto rotate' to north on the screen, so it's 'set'. When you stop, the 'electronic compass' feature comes in handy to keep the map set and stop it jumping around.

Horse for courses though

Alun

Personally I think the recalibration of the compass function when changing batteries is largely unnecessary. It may be necessary if changing the type or model of battery, but I use two pairs of identical rechargeables, and have never found any difference after recalibration, so I don't bother.

Also with regard to the models that have no proper electronic compass function, you can still read off a bearing to your destination from the screen and transfer that to a 'real' compass to get an initial direction when stationary should you so wish.

On the Garmin models, the pointer on the map screen isn't that large, so it can be tricky to see what direction it's pointing in in bad light conditions (paired with ageing eyes!) so the larger compass screen is more useful to me at least.

But as you say, horse for courses, it is after all just a tool like I said, just like a compass or map.

But I would urge anyone buying one to fully familiarise themselves with it's workings, maybe even go on a course if you're a bit of a technophobe. There's nothing worse than having a bit of technology that you're not familiar with sitting neglected in your rucksack, and thinking it'll get you out of a sticky patch in an emergency, and then not being able to use it.

I see this all the time ... people who've got one for Xmas, put batteries in it and switched it on once, then into the rucksack it goes 'for emergencies only'. Then when they need to use it either 1) the batteries have run out, 2) it hasn't got a fix in so long it has to do a cold start and takes 20 mins to get a fix, 3) they've never set it up properly in the first place so have the position format in something unusable, or 4) they can't even figure out how to go the screen with their position on.

Alun

Halloween Jack wrote: »

Last night I enrolled in a map reading course in great outdoors and I hope to do mountain skills when time allows, so hopefully I'll have all my bases covered in the not too distant future;)

Good plan! Having a GPS and knowing how to use it is a great adjunct to traditional navigation skills, but not a replacement. If you couldn't navigate without one, you won't magically be able to reliably navigate with one.

BarryD

Alun wrote: »

Personally I think the recalibration of the compass function when changing batteries is largely unnecessary. It may be necessary if changing the type or model of battery, but I use two pairs of identical rechargeables, and have never found any difference after recalibration, so I don't bother.

Interesting, must find out more - I'm a bit lazy but have definitely noticed that if I've changed batteries a few times and haven't recalibrated, the 'electronic compass' feature is way out but could be due to using a mixture of battery makes. Does charge level matter I wonder?

Alun

The sensor in the GPS is the same kind of device as found in most smartphones these days, a 3-axis magnetometer. It measures the surrounding magnetic field in 3 dimensions and then does some maths to extract the horizontal component of that depending on where you're located. That's why it doesn't matter what orientation you hold it in, a big advantage over conventional compasses too!

Like a normal compass it will be affected by anything ferromagnetic in it's immediate vicinity, so has to be calibrated to take account of that in much the same way as ship's compasses are, as they're surrounded by metal too. Each sensor is also slightly different, so that's another reason for needing calibration.

The casings and terminals (and possibly some of the internals?) of a battery are ferromagnetic, and the exact make up will be slightly different for each battery type, so as long as you use the same batteries each time, the effect should remain the same. I can't see how charge level would affect anything though.

BarryD

Alun wrote: »

The casings and terminals (and possibly some of the internals?) of a battery are ferromagnetic, and the exact make up will be slightly different for each battery type, so as long as you use the same batteries each time, the effect should remain the same. I can't see how charge level would affect anything though.

Thanks but would you rely on it being the same? Suppose you're in a tricky spot, needing a little care with navigation and your batteries wane. You squat down, get a little shelter somewhere and change the batteries. Would you trust the calibration now without checking? Hmm, suppose it was now 10,15, 20 degrees off, you could be in trouble.

That's why I'd prefer the GPS spot on the map any day. It's immediate & direct, you continue moving down the spur or whatever and just check that the GPS dot is moving where you want to go.

Several ways as you say to use these units, but I always thought that the implementation of compass navigation functions on recreational GPS devices that display maps for hillwalking was a little redundant. A sort of nod towards traditional hill navigation. Maybe there's value in that, because if you do have to revert to your 'Silva', well the idea is similar.

Alun

On Garmins at least, the electronic compass switches off automatically when you actually start moving to conserve power, and the unit reverts back to calculating direction based on comparing positions in the same way as units that have no compass do.

BarryD

Yes, I think you're right and that's a setting alright. Would work reliably if set to only kick in when stopped.

loobylou

The price of the maps does seem expensive but bear in mind that this is OS mapping for the entire 26 counties. This is the equivalent of probably 60-70 paper maps, retailng at about €8/9 each.

duckysauce

loobylou wrote: »

The price of the maps does seem expensive but bear in mind that this is OS mapping for the entire 26 counties. This is the equivalent of probably 60-70 paper maps, retailng at about €8/9 each.

yep its money well spent in imo . As the quality is spot on and you can print the map and route off before you head out . If you shell out for a unit that can take maps the extra bit is worth it .

hiromoto

Viewranger on smartphone

duckysauce

hiromoto wrote: »

Viewranger on smartphone

do the maps cost much ?? and are the waterproof bags good ?

Alun

Although Viewranger is a great product, my main concern with the use of smartphones is battery life. If the battery goes, you're without both a GPS and a phone. You can get all kinds of external battery packs, even solar chargers, but these make the combination more unwieldy.

I have a waterproof case for my Android phone, and while it seems to work OK for protecting my phone from dampness getting in through the top pocket of my rucksack, where I keep it, I'm not sure I'd trust it for much more than that, even though it claims it is IPX7 rated and should be OK for immersion up to 30 minutes in 1 meter of water. It's this one ... http://www.cascadedesigns.com/e-case/eseries/eseries-9/product

I also find that the screen, although usable to a degree, is not as responsive when it's in the case.

I've had my Oregon for a number of years now and it's fallen in puddles and bog, dropped on rocks, got rained, hailed and snowed on, accidentally left on top of my car and fallen off, and it's still working 100% OK.

BarryD

For waterproof cases for smartphone, I've tested these: https://store.aquapac.net/explore-product-range/waterproof-phone-cases.html

Like Alun says, you lose some a little sensitivity but as regards waterproofness, no problems to report at all with above.

Battery life through use and/ or cold is an issue and switching batteries on most phones is impractical on the hill. I haven't tried external battery packs but other customers report that they work well.

Safety might be an issue, if you want a phone for emergency calls. In which case, carry an old spare phone as a backup if travelling alone.

Going back to sensitivity problem, and earlier conversation with Alun! If you use the device as I suggest, there's very little interaction required. You look at the map on the screen, check your current position displayed via the GPS pointer. Tuck it back inside your jacket - the unit should be set to go into 'sleep' mode to save power. So when you take it back out to check your route, you simply touch the screen or press a button to reactivate the screen. Works like that here anyway.

The trend seems to be towards 'smartphones' - handheld devices that not only communicate but fulfill multiple similar functions. A matter of time likely till more ruggedised phones become available.

Halloween Jack

I've used my smartphone just to record my walks, never mind relying on it for navigation and it has died pretty much every time, sometimes after 2 hrs if it's cold....

Alun

Rechargeable battery capacity generally decreases with temperature. I've had situations where I've been out on a cold day and finished the walk with a practically 'empty' battery, but when I get home after a few hours in the warm, it's still showing 50% capacity.

As said before, Lithium single use batteries are great for when it gets really cold.

hiromoto

duckysauce wrote: »

do the maps cost much ?? and are the waterproof bags good ?

You can buy by county, ranges from 9 euro to 28 euro, whole country is 125.