Builders!!!!!!!

Argo123

Does anyone know if builders can change their minds about where to put doors etc?? We have agreed a set of plans and the builder is putting a door to the bathroom into the kitchen, although the plan states it should be in the hallway?! We have not agreed to this?


Can anyone help??

Carpenter

Nope he can not

Penn

The builder can't put a door from the bathroom into the kitchen for hygiene reasons alone.

The builder can typically make minor changes (moving a door a few inches one way or another eg if the door would clash with service pipework etc), but a change like you've described should have been discussed with either yourself or the architect first, and as stated, shouldn't be allowed regardless as you're not supposed to have a bathroom opening into a kitchen.

Tell the builder to put the door in as per the original plans, or if he has a valid reason for not putting the door there, to discuss it with the architect and come up with a proper solution.

Argo123

Penn wrote: »

The builder can't put a door from the bathroom into the kitchen for hygiene reasons alone.

The builder can typically make minor changes (moving a door a few inches one way or another eg if the door would clash with service pipework etc), but a change like you've described should have been discussed with either yourself or the architect first, and as stated, shouldn't be allowed regardless as you're not supposed to have a bathroom opening into a kitchen.

Tell the builder to put the door in as per the original plans, or if he has a valid reason for not putting the door there, to discuss it with the architect and come up with a proper solution.

Thanks Penn, it's in a housing estate so he thinks he rules the roost and we are being unreasonable and it's ok to have the toilet in the kitchen ???

Doop

Penn wrote: »

The builder can't put a door from the bathroom into the kitchen for hygiene reasons alone.

This was changed imo, page 7 section 6.5

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,27357,en.pdf

2.5 A room or space containing a water closet should
be separated from a place used for the preparation or
cooking of food by means of: -

(a) in the case of a building used solely as a
dwelling, a door, and

(b) in any other case, a properly ventilated
passage or lobby.

Tbh I personally I think a lobby is always best and most would agree.

However thats a side issue OP, is this a house you have agreed to purchase from plans? Do you have a deposit on it? If so you agreed to purchase the property as per the design, which isnt what you are getting, I would be putting a call into my solicitor if it were me.

Ray Palmer

As far as I am aware plans are for illustration purposes and are allowed vary. If you go into houses in the same estate you will find quite a few minor differences. You also have to realise drawings often have mistakes in the too. There might not be enough room for the door to open properly in the hall for example.

What has the builder said about it?

As stated yes you can have a toilet opening into a kitchen.

L1011

Penn wrote: »

The builder can't put a door from the bathroom into the kitchen for hygiene reasons alone.

This requirement was removed some years ago citing disabled access.

hdowney

I would have a problem with the builder deviating from the agreed plans. Simple as. OP have you a deposit on it, and what kinda plans were agreed when deposit was signed? I know plans can be changed and all but if I'd agreed and paid deposit for the door to the lav to be in the hall and then what I got was it in the kitchen I'd be livid. They may have changed the rules, but there's no way in heck I'd have PAID for the bathroom access to be in the kitchen.

Ms.Tea

Can I ask is the property in Naas by any chance?

Ray Palmer

MYOB wrote: »

This requirement was removed some years ago citing disabled access.

This is the most likely reason for the door not being in the hall. Once the stairs are in place and plastered wall, skirting and flooring are put down there may simply be not enough room for disability access to the toilet.

I get being annoyed over plan discrepancies but matching building regs is way more important. Pretty sure that this is all perfectly legal and allowed in a contract.

toughapple

A contract is a contract. No way should the builder deviate without notice.

the_syco

Argo123 wrote: »

We have agreed a set of plans and the builder is putting a door to the bathroom into the kitchen, although the plan states it should be in the hallway?!

Maybe worth checking if it's only your house, or are they doing this to all of the houses?

Doop

Ray Palmer wrote: »

This is the most likely reason for the door not being in the hall. Once the stairs are in place and plastered wall, skirting and flooring are put down there may simply be not enough room for disability access to the toilet.

I get being annoyed over plan discrepancies but matching building regs is way more important. Pretty sure that this is all perfectly legal and allowed in a contract.

To be fair its no secret what size a door needs to be to get into a wc. Im sure the plans would have reflected this unless the builder makes an error during construction.

Let us know how u get on OP

Ray Palmer

Doop wrote: »

To be fair its no secret what size a door needs to be to get into a wc. Im sure the plans would have reflected this unless the builder makes an error during construction.

Let us know how u get on OP

It isn't the size of the door, it the opening around the door. The door has to have a certain clearance to allow access to a wheelchair. As I said when you start putting things together in a build you can and will encounter some issues. Not much point in having the rights sized door if you can't open it to get in.
The drawings could easily have been wrong and if bought from a brochure with a design they all say the plans in the brochure are for illustration purposes. I think people really misunderstand the accuracy of drawings and/or construction. We could be talking about 50mm being the issue. I can say you can be pretty certain this is covered legally to protect the designers and builders.

jmayo

I have to say if I was buying a house/property and I found that there was now suddenly a door into toilet from kitchen rather than from some hall, I would be looking for legal backup to get out of the purchase.

Some day if you try and sell it will bite you in the ass.

Who would like a visitor over in their home and they ask to use the bathroom facilities.
Would you rather be the visitor or the people outside listening to them go.
Will you always direct people upstairs, etc which then makes it a waste of space ?

And yes I know the soundproofing would probably not be great anyway, but at least a wall of some sort is better than a door.
And just remember when that door opens ...

well lets just say you would better invest in some damm powerful airfresherners.

miss no stars

Get your copy of the drawings out and look at the notes. Look at the contract you signed and read everything. There might be a note in there saying that drawings are indicative only and that minor amendments may need to be made during construction.

If it was me... I wouldn't want the toilet accessed from the kitchen. Ew.

I'd ask why the door hasn't been put where the plans indicate it should be. If there's no pressing issue then I'd tell him to move it, rectification is the builder's cost to absorb (the correct location WAS shown on the drawings and he failed to follow the drawings). If it was a construction detail issue, he should have been on to the engineer and the client (you) before proceeding to change the door. If it's a disabled access issue, he should have been on to the architect and you before proceeding. But just changing it without consultation doesn't wash and he has to absorb the costs of rectifying it.

Like, even if there was a genuine reason for it the builder should never have pressed on without permission to change it. Talk to the engineer or architect. Don't bother with talking to the builder.

Victor

Folks, realise that as this is a housing estate, that there may be no architect and the engineer works for the builder.

toughapple wrote: »

A contract is a contract. No way should the builder deviate without notice.

You will find that the contract probably allows the builder deviate.

the_syco

Something to consider; if this is something that he has brought to your attention, what has he not brought to your attention? Also, enquire why the door was moved at all. I'm thinking someone f**ked up, and this is the way to slide around it?

Ray Palmer

the_syco wrote: »

Something to consider; if this is something that he has brought to your attention, what has he not brought to your attention? Also, enquire why the door was moved at all. I'm thinking someone f**ked up, and this is the way to slide around it?

This is a completely unreasonable belief. You can pretty much be sure they are covered legally for this. When constructing a building it is next to impossible to guarantee the level of accuracy that people appear to believe is how buildings are constructed. The belief is also probably based on a very small image for illustration purposes.

Deviation in manufacturing and construction along with inaccurate drawings can easily cause such issues. It is much like complaining the bread you bought doesn't fit your toaster every time and saying the bread manufacture can't do their job.

seamus

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Deviation in manufacturing and construction along with inaccurate drawings can easily cause such issues. It is much like complaining the bread you bought doesn't fit your toaster every time and saying the bread manufacture can't do their job.

This isn't really a minor deviation though. It fundamentally alters the layout of the house, like moving a front door from the front to the side, it affects how the property is used and would also affect its value.

It is definitely worth getting a look at the drawings lodged with the local authority's planning office and getting your solicitor to go through the contract.

An old colleague of mine signed contracts (plus 10% of the purchase price) for a half-built apartment near the start of the crash, paid way over the odds and realised it too late. When the apartment was finished he went in with an engineer and measured every cm of the place. They found it was 2 sq.m. smaller than the plans. Spread over an entire apartment, that wouldn't be a perceptible difference, but it was enough to rip up the contracts and get all of his money back. The estate agent called him every name under the sun, but he knew there was no fighting it.

If you can threaten to leave the contract you can either force the builder to put the door in the correct place or negotiate a drop in price.

Mrs OBumble

Victor wrote: »

Folks, realise that as this is a housing estate, that there may be no architect

Good grief!

I think you have just explained for me why the majority of housing in this country is so damn ugly and under-designed.

I won't even begin to ask WHY????

Ray Palmer

seamus wrote: »

This isn't really a minor deviation though. It fundamentally alters the layout of the house, like moving a front door from the front to the side, it affects how the property is used and would also affect its value.
.

It is not a fundamental alteration no matter how much you protest it is. It is not like moving the front door. Neither of us know why the door was moved and the OP hasn't come back to let us no of any response.

What you are talking about just isn't how building contracts work. There is plenty of deviation allowable in a contract for buying off the plans. For example 2 sq meter would have to be a certain percentage of the over all apartment size for it to be relevant.

Ray Palmer

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Good grief!

I think you have just explained for me why the majority of housing in this country is so damn ugly and under-designed.

I won't even begin to ask WHY????

I think he meant one on site. The plans being bought would come from an architect. The main reason for such horrible looking property is the requirements sent to the architect. "I want 16 house on this plot with materials up to this value". You can't make a silk purse out of a pig's ear

jmayo

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Deviation in manufacturing and construction along with inaccurate drawings can easily cause such issues. It is much like complaining the bread you bought doesn't fit your toaster every time and saying the bread manufacture can't do their job.

Ahh FFS this is a major deviation in most people's book, except of course yours.
The door to a room is now from a different area of the house.
It isn't that the door has moved a few inches, it is now from a completely different bloody area of the house.

There are inaccurate drawings and there are inaccurate drawings.
To me this would be akin to signing contract to buy a car with three back seats accessible as normal through the two back doors, but then finding out you are getting a car where you can only get into one by going through the boot.

Ray Palmer wrote: »

It is not a fundamental alteration no matter how much you protest it is. It is not like moving the front door. Neither of us know why the door was moved and the OP hasn't come back to let us no of any response.

I would love to do some building work for you.

Moving a door from the hall into the kitchen is a bloody fundamental change to the layout of a house.

It means that there is now a kitchen wall that can't have continous wall units, it means that you may not be able to put a dresser against that wall.
There are loads of knock on effects.
And I am not even going down the road about sanitation, hygeine, etc.

Shure then why not move the main bathroom door from the hall into one of the bedrooms.

Ray Palmer

jmayo wrote: »

Ahh FFS this is a major deviation in most people's book, except of course yours.
.

You think. You don't have to believe me but have you ever actually been involved in construction projects? Where I have studied construction. One of these subjects included contract obligations and the law.

Specifically alterations to plans was discussed. When any designer draws up plans they will not be 100% correct decisions have to be made at the time of construction. Sometimes a designer will be available to alter the plans other times the decision has to be made by who is on site. This is a known reality of construction and catered for in the law.
You can draw up plans all you like but if those designs have flaws (they all do) the design has to change.

The point remains the OP has to contact the construction company and ask why these changes were made. Depending on the answer and reality is there maybe no legal recourse. This is the most likely outcome unless something extraordinary took place.

I completely understand why it would annoy people and how this doesn't make sense to people with no knowledge nor understanding of construction. It doesn't mean I even agree with it, this is just the reality. In the same way a booking deposit on a property off plans does not guarantee the purchase price which also doesn't make sense to most people. You are shooting the messenger here.

the_syco

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Specifically alterations to plans was discussed. When any designer draws up plans they will not be 100% correct decisions have to be made at the time of construction. Sometimes a designer will be available to alter the plans other times the decision has to be made by who is on site. This is a known reality of construction and catered for in the law.
You can draw up plans all you like but if those designs have flaws (they all do) the design has to change.

That's interesting.

conorhal

Ray Palmer wrote: »

It is not a fundamental alteration no matter how much you protest it is. It is not like moving the front door. Neither of us know why the door was moved and the OP hasn't come back to let us no of any response.

What you are talking about just isn't how building contracts work. There is plenty of deviation allowable in a contract for buying off the plans. For example 2 sq meter would have to be a certain percentage of the over all apartment size for it to be relevant.

It's not just a findamental deviation, it's an illegal one.

My folks, for ease of access in their old age, built a downstairs toilet and the only place it could go was off the kitcken. It was a legal requirement that there be two sets of doors seperating the kitchen from the bathroom to satisfy planning regulations. So if this builder puts a door opening directly onto the kitchen he is violating planning regulations that may effect the possible future sale of the house.

If I were the OP, I'd fire the builder immediately and hire sombody that's not a cowboy.

the_syco

conorhal wrote: »

My folks, for ease of access in their old age, built a downstairs toilet and the only place it could go was off the kitcken. It was a legal requirement that there be two sets of doors seperating the kitchen from the bathroom to satisfy planning regulations.

Pretty sure someone has linked to the regulations that this has changed recently.

jmayo

Ray Palmer wrote: »

You think. You don't have to believe me but have you ever actually been involved in construction projects?

Do barns and cowsheds count ?
Apart from that involved in fit out of office/warehouse and some house renovations.

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Where I have studied construction. One of these subjects included contract obligations and the law.
Specifically alterations to plans was discussed. When any designer draws up plans they will not be 100% correct decisions have to be made at the time of construction. Sometimes a designer will be available to alter the plans other times the decision has to be made by who is on site. This is a known reality of construction and catered for in the law.
You can draw up plans all you like but if those designs have flaws (they all do) the design has to change.

I have seen pipework moved, windows moved a little, doors moved a bit, but I didn't come across anything where the door, and in this case a toilet, was moved from one area of the house to another.

Going by what you have said then buying off the plans is no guarantee to what you may actually get and there is nothing much to protect the purchaser.
Who decides how far the builder can change the original outline ?

Ray Palmer wrote: »

The point remains the OP has to contact the construction company and ask why these changes were made. Depending on the answer and reality is there maybe no legal recourse. This is the most likely outcome unless something extraordinary took place.

I completely understand why it would annoy people and how this doesn't make sense to people with no knowledge nor understanding of construction. It doesn't mean I even agree with it, this is just the reality. In the same way a booking deposit on a property off plans does not guarantee the purchase price which also doesn't make sense to most people. You are shooting the messenger here.

You have to admit this could have serious consequences if the buyer ever choses to sell.
Honestly would you want a door from your kichen directly into a toilet ?

the_syco wrote: »

Pretty sure someone has linked to the regulations that this has changed recently.

That would sound typcially Irish.
Change the regulations if they got in the way of making a few quid.
And we wonder why we have so many screwups.

Ray Palmer

jmayo wrote: »

That would sound typcially Irish.
Change the regulations if they got in the way of making a few quid.
And we wonder why we have so many screwups.

As far as I remember it was changed in the 90s because electric fans can do the job of ventilation and risk of spreading germs. It was actually an old law. It isn't unique to Ireland. If you want to self hate the country feel free but you are wrong on this matter. Do you think it was better when you could have a toilet with a extra door and no sink because that was what was allowed before? It still exists in many houses

It doesn't matter what my opinion is the law allows for this as do the regulations.