advice on having a family

johnmck

hi,
Never thought I'd be posting to the parenting forum!

ok here it goes.

myself and my girlfriend have been together 10 years now. We've settled a bit, I've got a steady income and know now what career path I want to take. So, I brought up the subject of having children again with her a few weeks ago. She was never too sure about it, but I thought it was just because she was still in her 20's and hadn't really settled. She's 99% sure now that she never wants to have children.

I hadn't given it much thought to be honest up until recently. I'm 33, and started thinking about it, and that it would be nice for us to settle down and have a family. I can't get the thoughts of not having a family out of my head.
She says my love for her should be stronger than the desire to have a family, and she also says that what if we try and she can't have children. but the fact is that she is probably never going to try.

your kind thoughts are appreciated on this!

Orion

This is more of a relationship issue than a Parenting issue. I'll move the thread to the appropriate forum.

Ann84

This topic comes up pretty regularly in the relationship issues forum and the outcome tends to be the realisation that kids (and sometimes weddings) more often than not tend to be dealbreakers.

Ignoring the bewildering fact that you have waited 10 years to have this serious conversation, it will boil down to whether you want kids, and whether she wants kids.
If she doesnt, and you do, you have to decide whether you can rreally live with that, that is without resentment.
Not just can you live with no kids, can you be HAPPY with no kids?

You can't make her, and if she really doesn't want them she is equally likely to resent you if she bows to pressure in the long term.
Kids are not a compromise so you really need to work out what you want.

My housemate ended her last long term relationship over this very issue. She tried to accept his decision but realised that she was growing resentful and once her time had run out (to have kids) she would secretly hate him for it...

And just for the record, you should not love anyone more than you want kids, that is daft! Wanting kids is a biological urge (or not!), it's not a choice and cannot be contolled. By that logic, she should love you more than not wanting to have kids... Silliness on her part saying that.

johnmck

Thanks Ann84. I know I've waited a long time to bring this up, but if I'm being honest I don't think I fully "grew up" until the last few years.

Is it wrong that I'm a bloke and bringing this up?? She obviously didn't bring it up very often and has probably tried to avoid it.

I think if we never try then I'll be resentful. If we try and she can't have them then that is fine I'm not going to leave her because she can't have them.

Ann84

Thats fair enough but the consequence is you have invested a lot in a relationship that may not be the right one for you.
I am confused though, where does not being 'able' to have them come into it?

The immediate question is does she 'want' to have them?
It doesn't matter if she can or not if she doesn't 'want' them and if she doesn't, and you do (as you said above) then you guys are going to have to take a long hard look at where your relationship is headed.

You neEd to be clear and tell her exactly what you wrote here, you want kids and will resent her if you guys dont try. If she doesn't want them and doesn't want to try, you will have your answer...

Sorry to be a bit blunt, but like I said kids aren't something that can be a compromise...

Ps - no reason for it to be wrong to bring it up, you are entitled to want kids as much as anyone else... My BF told me he would want kids eventually pretty soon into our relationship, so do I though so no issue.

johnmck

hi, she has polycystic ovary syndrome so it could be difficult for her to conceive, that's the the not being able to comes from.

johnmck

what if I end it now and never find anybody! ah this is such a headspin

Ann84

I understand, fair enough it might be difficult but my point still stands... If she doesn't WANT to, it doesn't matter. Besides, there are alternatives like adoption etc.

If she doesn't want to, and you know you will resent her, you have to decide if your relationship ( and you!) can live with that.

And your right, what if you leave and you never find someone... That is always a good reason to stay in a relationship right?!!

My housemate is single, and I asked her that question, did she not worry about not meeting someone else etc? Her point was that she would rather be out looking than with someone who wasn't right for her.

I can appreciate your fear, but if my bf ruled out kids, I'd break up too. I would resent him too much over time, I know that so it wouldn't work out anyway...

Fear of the unknown aside, it does boil down to what you want, and what you are willing to live with im afraid...

Xterminator

i think your partner has told you from the start she doesnt want kids, yes?
and up until now you have not had an issue with this. did you think that she would reconsider over time?

anyway the point i am making is; from her point of view, you are shifting the goalposts 10 years later.

Really; this may become a deal breaker for you, but given the time invested in this relationship, i would suggest you dont push this too hard. You have made her aware of this issue now that you do want to at least explore the idea of a family, and i would suggest you give her space and see if she comes round.

3DataModem

johnmck wrote: »

She says my love for her should be stronger than the desire to have a family,

I'm afraid to say that this is an extremely alarming comment from a partner. If you really want a family but don't have one to please a partner, you are quite likely heading for resentment and heartache in the future.

Luckily you are a man, so the biological ability to have children lasts a lot longer so you have much more time to act on your decision, with her or with someone else.

If you are looking for specific advice; give her 6 months to think about it. If she doesn't reconsider, then move on.

3DataModem

johnmck wrote: »

what if I end it now and never find anybody! ah this is such a headspin

If you are a clean, employed dude with no major personality flaws and you are looking to start a family, than many would suggest that you will have your pick of the bunch.

Orion

johnmck wrote: »

hi, she has polycystic ovary syndrome so it could be difficult for her to conceive, that's the the not being able to comes from.

PCOS makes it difficult not impossible. My partner has PCOS and we have naturally conceived twins. I wouldn't focus on her ability to have children but on her desire to have them. You're not being unreasonable - it's a perfectly natural desire to want children. But as other posters have said if it's likely to cause resentment once it's too late then that should be aired now. Has she said why she doesn't want children?

Magicmatilda

Was her dis interest in having children there before she was diagnosed with the PCOS? The reason I ask is that it may be possible that after being diagnosed she resigned herself to not having children to the point of not wanting them, as a sort of acceptence for if she could not, a kind of protection - well I didn;t want them anyway. This I think would explain why she feels that your love for her should be enough, it may come from the fear that if she cannot have them you will leave.

I think you need to sit down and talk to her again, explaining calmly that you would like to try for a family and you would like her to think about it. That you are aware of the difficulties you may face but you are still asking her is she willing to try. Give her some time to digest that and respond, a couple of weeks or something. Ultimately if she will not try then it sounds like you need to leave the relationship but I wouln't make it an ultimatum.

As for finding someone else if you are 33 and open to finding love then I think you have a good chance. It may take a few years but you do have time.

desbrook

johnmck wrote: »

what if I end it now and never find anybody! ah this is such a headspin

Sorry my friend but if you want kids and she doesn't you have nothing to lose by finishing things.

Don't "settle" - either of you. If you do you MIGHT last ten years but it'll be ten horrible years . Sorry to be so morbid.

Sound Bite

As someone in a similar situation to your girlfriend, medical issues which may mean I cannot have children, I very much agreed with magicmatilda's comments above.

I've resigned myself that it may not happen & there's a real fear that a man may walk away if he wants kid that you just cannot have! I'd nearly prefer to meet a man who doesn't want kids than face that reality. Your girlfriend may be the same. You need to talk to her more detail.

Good luck, not an easy situation for either of you

johnmck

@MagicMatilda - she was never certain, but she has become clearer recently since spending some time with children. In my opinion, she didn't have the best upbringing either. Both her parents fought a lot and her mother aired her opinions and resentment for having children, which I feel has had a damaging effect, because part of her not wanting children is based on this. Whereas I had a very happy childhood.

We have talked a lot, and almost broke up on Monday. We've been seeing a councilor about this issue and other issues. We can work through the other issues but this is the one we are stuck on. As the councilor said we are both on opposite sides of the fence!

@soundbite - for me, I can't talk about other men, but for me, if my girlfriend does try and cannot have them then yes I will stick by her side.

thank you everybody for your advice - very similar to what some friends and family are saying

allybhoy

ill just give you my 2 cents from a guys perspective.

My longterm partner became pregnant when i was 29, it was unplanned and so came as a bit of a shock, i never really thought about having kids prior to that although we had discussed it previously but both felt we were too young and had too much of a social life and the world to see etc etc. When I found out the news, I was less than thrilled as i didnt feel i was ready to be a father.

Roll on 4 years from there and I can honestly honestly say, I wish i had of started and planned a family when I was younger so I could have bought a bigger house \ saved more etc etc. It maybe a cliche, but becoming a father is the single greatest thing that has ever happened to me and if you feel like you want to have kids well then you need to discuss this further with your partner and if she doesnt feel the same way you need to find somebody who will. Im sure you love your partner, but trust me, the love you have for your child will be far greater than any love you think you may have known. The best moments of every single day of my life is waking up seeing their faces.

Magicmatilda

In light of your posts above I would suggest you walk away. If she doesn't want kids and you do then that is a massive issue and not one that can be comprimised on really. Also given that fact that you are in counselling for other issues, it would suggest that the relationship is not very happy, so trying to get that back on track in order to live a life with just her and no kids sounds like far to much work to me.

Why did you not break up on Monday?

December2012

Keep talking it out with the counsellor - what usually happens in the process is that problems get broken down piece by piece.
And then you can eventually come to a realisation of what the real issues are.

johnmck

My GF has suggest that there is always also the option of fostering young kids who really need homes until they find parents

Ann84

Have you decided that you don't want children of your own then?

If so, there are lots of options.
Fostering is a lovely thing to do, it can be very difficult and emotionally open to heartache though so go into it with your eyes wide open.

Penny Dreadful

johnmck wrote: »

what if I end it now and never find anybody! ah this is such a headspin

I ended a 10 year relationship with my then boyfriend because he told me he never wanted to have children and didn't really want to get married either.
We were 22 when we got together and so both of these things seemed far too grown up for us to consider back then.
Time went on, it became important for me, I told him this and he strung me out for about 2 years on marriage and kids.
Eventually the crunch came and he couldn't avoid it any longer. We tried counselling and it helped me a lot - it helped me see that he was not the person for me regardless of whether I ever had children or not.
I saw that it was better for me to break up with him and be on my own for a while and possibly forever than sell myself and my desires short and accept second best from him.
I ended it and yes it was hard but I got through it. Then I met someone else and we're together 4 years, married for almost 2 of those and have a baby on the way. We're truly very happy.
It is worth rolling the dice again - if you don't you know that you're not going to have a chance at the life you really want.

Penny Dreadful

johnmck wrote: »

My GF has suggest that there is always also the option of fostering young kids who really need homes until they find parents

Fostering is a great and wonderful thing to do. Its not guaranteed that you'll be accepted as foster parents though. The system of checks and balances is very strict and if you put all of your hopes into this particular basket you could well see your hopes dashed.

johnmck

Hi,
she has decided she still doesn't want to have children, and this I think is her solution to try to keep me!

I can imagine that we would not be accepted. Guessing we'd have to be married, with experience of children and own our own house etc etc.

Penny Dreadful

johnmck wrote: »

Hi,
she has decided she still doesn't want to have children, and this I think is her solution to try to keep me!

I can imagine that we would not be accepted. Guessing we'd have to be married, with experience of children and own our own house etc etc.

That was the first thought that crossed my mind too I'm sorry to say.
In my case my ex tried to tell me that he did want to get married and that yes he did want to have children and that all of the agonising and procrastinating over the previous few years was just nerves and nothing more.
I accepted this/ didn't say anything to it for a couple of weeks and let it sit at the back of my mind. In my heart and soul I knew he didn't want those things. I could see my future being once of anger and resentment if we did go ahead and have children and I didn't want to have that life - one full of bitterness and anger and I really didn't want to have children with someone who was having them to keep me happy. Children should be wanted and never feel anything other than that.
I also thought he'd leave me standing at the alter if we even got as far as getting officially engaged. So I ended it.
As I said in my previous post it wasn't easy dealing with the break up itself, it was the right thing to do though however hard it was at the time.
It also made me more confident in myself and the things I hoped for, wanted and needed from another relationship if I was to have one.
In the early days with my now husband I did ask him what he feelings were on children and marriage - not necessarily with me but were they part of this bigger life plan. He said yes and I knew then that it was worth continuing with the relationship as we at least wanted the same things even if at that early stage we weren't sure we wanted them with each other.
As things happened we did fall deeply in love and get married and now fingers crossed the baby I am carrying will continue to full term and we'll have the little one in our arms in early October.

johnmck

She is being very honest and truthful about the fostering. I think it is something she would try. But I hadn't given it much thought to be honest, so don't know now.

Penny Dreadful

johnmck wrote: »

She is being very honest and truthful about the fostering. I think it is something she would try. But I hadn't given it much thought to be honest, so don't know now.

Fostering is a hugely selfless thing to do for anyone and I really admire people who give of themselves in this way. It is very important to remember that so many of the children in the foster care system are very very vulnerable (not that any child isn't) and have often been mistreated and abused. They really need people who are there totally and utterly and can manage the delicate situation.
Why is fostering preferable than having/ trying to have children of your own for her? Is it because it seems more temporary? Some foster children can live with a family for almost their entire lives.

Ann84

As mentioned, fostering is lovely, but is a serious commitment. It is not the same as parenting or adopting and has its own set of challenges.
There is always limited control, attachment to consider and knowing it could be taken away.

If you still want kids and she doesn't, fostering is not a solution in my mind. You need to be solid to foster, kids needing foster parents also need stability and if your gf doesn't want kids, she may not be able to cope with looking after someone else's, it's in no way easier than raising your own.
Also consider you fostering, you loving parenting and wanting more, and it having the opposite effect on her?! What then?

I don't believe you should be considering this unless you really both want kids.. I don't see how minding someone else's in emotionally strained situations is something she wood really go through... Penny may be right here... It does scream procrastination and avoidance.

You don't need to be married to foster though, there is plenty of information on citizens information. Maybe you should print some of it off and leave it on the kitchen table... No time like the present to get the ball rolling eh...?!

Magicmatilda

As already said when you foster, the kids you get are often very emotionally damaged. The can have massive behavioural problems. That is not something to take lightly. I am curious as to why she feels she could deal with that but not with having children naturally?

I think you need to ask that question. The fact that she will consider fostering but not adoption? Does she think she can just give the kids back?

I think ultimately you both want very different things.

johnmck

thanks for all the words of wisdom. She is saying that she would only want to foster between the ages of 1 to 5. Not sure if it works like this! I doubt it, I'd say you gotta take all ages right? Because she says she can't relate to older children and it wouldn't be permanent. she's getting this from her friend who's parents fostered, but the thing is they had their own children before they done this. She is trying very hard to win me over, I know she is trying because she does love me.

Penny Dreadful

johnmck wrote: »

thanks for all the words of wisdom. She is saying that she would only want to foster between the ages of 1 to 5. Not sure if it works like this! I doubt it, I'd say you gotta take all ages right? Because she says she can't relate to older children and it wouldn't be permanent. she's getting this from her friend who's parents fostered, but the thing is they had their own children before they done this. She is trying very hard to win me over, I know she is trying because she does love me.

It does sound as though she is trying to find some way to keep you and your relationship and give you what you wish for while not giving it at the same time.
I can understand that, the fear of ending a significant relationship is great as is learning who you are without that person in your life.
My ex tried it with me and I tried to accept this half measure but it made me feel like a second hand car that was having its tyres kicked to see how useful it would be.
The realisation that I was worth more than that was rather like peeking behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz. I couldn't un see or hide away from the truth of the situation any longer. Ending the relationship and moving on from it was worth it as I was allowing myself the chance at least, to have the things that mattered to me; someone who truly loved me and all of my foibles, who loved coming home to me, was interested in me, my life, it's ups and downs and sharing all of their hopes and dreams with me. Someone who would be there when things got rough as they inevitably do and who would trust that I would be there in turn for them. Someone who was seeking the same basic things from life as I was.
This might not have worked out for me. I was lucky that it did but if I had stayed in the previous relationship I wouldn't have allowed myself even the chance at the happiness that I have now. I knew that I would be happier in myself being single but being me than I ever could be by settling for less than I wanted, needed or was worth.
I've had some humdingers with my husband and some absolutely wonderful times. The in between is life. He challenges me a lot, sometimes I'd prefer if he didn't! But then I know that he feels the same way and it's a relationship of equals where we are both striving for the same things together. For me that is what love is- it can be trying and difficult as well as fabulous and exciting and nerve wracking but knowing that the core of what my life is about is shared by my husband and vice versa is the stability of it all and that is what lasts and gets you through.

If fostering is something your partner is truly serious about then appointments with the relevant people should be set up and interviews arranged. The good, bad and ugly of fostering should be made clear and whether or not you are acceptable as a couple needs to be discovered. What if you have to be willing to take 18 month old children as well as 14 year olds and that is non negotiable? Will she refuse that? What if it turns out to be much more difficult than she anticipates and wants to give up but you love it?
She needs to get her information and facts from the authorities rather than a friend whose parents have fostered.

Ultimately it is your decision as to whether you stay in this relationship or not. Only you will know the right thing to do even if it is the hardest thing you have ever done.

Ann84

Op, I think you have gotten some really good advice on this thread, from pointing out the obvious compatibility issues, to considering her difficulties in having kids and how that may impact her perspective, to real life experience from someone On the other side of this situation.

This is my final post because I don't believe I can give anymore useful advice so finally,

1. You cannot compromise on kids, you either both want them, or you are both HAPPY to never have your own babies
2. Fostering is not a substitute for having your own kids, not short term fostering definately. It will most likely actually cause you to want your own kids more...

Unless you have decided that you don't want kid's (I asked you that a few posts back and you didnt answer so I am going to take it that you haven't) and it sounds like she has made her position clear... This brings me black to point 1 above.

Sorry op but i dont believe short term fostering is going to fix your underlying incompatibility.

Obliq

johnmck wrote: »

, if my girlfriend does try and cannot have them then yes I will stick by her side.

OP, a thought just struck me - would you feel the same as this if she doesn't try? I mean, she is clearly trying to work through her issues about having kids but may still come to the conclusion that she doesn't want to. Would you still stick by her side, given that you say you would if she couldn't physically have children? Would you feel the same if she wouldn't? I think this is really the only thing you have to work out for yourself, and give her a heads up on it - the whether to try or not is up to her.

If she did try and couldn't have any, then you'd be upset right? But would find a way to get over it in order to stick with her. That could also happen now (although I totally get that it's a massive decision for you, whether to give yourself a chance at fatherhood or not....) and you could be trying to accept that your relationship will be without having children. I'm not advising you to do this or anything, just that it struck me from your sentence above that you are clearly feeling in contradiction with yourself at the mo.....

Magicmatilda

I think it sounds like you love her and she loves you.

The point of this issue is that really, sometimes Love really isn't enough.

I assume you want kids because you want to raise little babies into to adults and all that goes with that. You want to go to their weddings and hopefully, if they have any mind your grandkids etc...

This is obviousely not what she wants. With her option there will be no debs, family holidays, grandkids, weddings etc.. It sounds like she wants to babysit kids whose parents are sick (that type of fostering). There is nothing worng with her not wanting kids, just as there is nothing wrong with you wanting them. But it makes you fundametally incompatible.

Maybe she does Love you, but ultimately that is not the point here.

December2012

johnmck wrote: »

If in years to come somebody asks us "why didn't you have children?" I'd be far more comfortable with saying "We didn't have any because Mary (not my GFs name!) couldn't have any", instead of saying "Mary didn't want a family but I did!"

You know who will ask that question, repeatedly and uncomfortably?

You will.

You will ask yourself.

And you'll have to hear that answer every time - that she didn't want to.

Can you handle that?

Obliq

johnmck wrote: »

Hi Obliq,
you've really got to the heart of what I'm feeling. the contradiction inside me is enormous at the moment. my head is in a spin and I'm starting to lose sleep at night. I feel physically and emotionally drained. Right now I feel if she did try, or said 100% that she will try in a few years, then yes I would stick by her even if she wasn't able to have any. But if her answer is that she will never try, then that is what is hard for me to swallow - that I'll probably have to end it. Why? Because of potential resentment. If in years to come somebody asks us "why didn't you have children?" I'd be far more comfortable with saying "We didn't have any because Mary (not my GFs name!) couldn't have any", instead of saying "Mary didn't want a family but I did!"

I think you need to say exactly this to her John - preferably with your counsellor. Maybe you have already. In fairness to you, it's a make or break decision for BOTH of you. For her, the pressure to say yes she'll try or else face losing you, potentially resenting you for that. For you, the knowledge that the disappointment and potential resentment would mean the end of the relationship eventually.

I do think she will need a clear cut decision to work with though, as will you. I'm sorry you're under so much stress over this - what a difficult time for both of you. It's as if one of you must cave in to pressure on this extremely personal decision, to keep the relationship alive. What a shame - adult life is sh!tty sometimes

rcarroll

All I can say is it's a horribld thing to be going through and I'm so sorry...it's unfortunately one of those very unfair decisions that have to be made...ye could be right for each other in so many ways but sadly this issue tends to break couples up...are you sure she really has her heart in fostering? Having seen my aunt do this all I can say is it's not a short term solution or an easy way oit if thats what she's hoping

johnmck

it has ended

Sound Bite

Very sorry to hear that. The decision to have or not have children is one where there is no real compromise available. It's absolutely heartbreaking to break up with someone you love for a reason like this. That said, I know a few people who have and all are happy with their decision in the long term.

Sometimes love just isn't enough. It sucks & it hurts like hell but it's the right decision for both of you.

Obliq

Ah, sorry to hear that mate

Penny Dreadful

johnmck wrote: »

it has ended

Sorry to hear that John and I sincerely hope you're doing ok all things considered. This is a tough time for you and I hope you have family and/ or good friends to help support you through this time. This site is helpful too and use it and the rest of us here as much as you want or need to.
Thinking of you xx

Ann84

OP, very sorry that it's come to this conclusion, as already said, I do hope that you have goodsupport around you. Best of luck and fingers crossed you both get the chance to individually get from life what you couldn't have together...