Should we merge with SA club rugby?

lost my old account

Its obviously no secret that ANZAC rugby unions are discussing a possible cutting of SA rugby teams from competitions, and do appear to be looking at Japan and other Asian markets to fulfill to huge drop in cash ejecting South Africa would have on the competition.

Based on this, should Irish clubs merge with South African clubs in a joint league. The Welsh regions have underperformed since their creation, there best result is a few league wins and one Challange cup back in 2010. The Scottish teams are nothing short of abysmal, and a problem they and the Welsh face have is a continuous loss of international standard players abroad. Not only do the teams suffer, but so does the quality of the league, and in turn so does viewer rates and public interest and cash.

The Irish teams seem to consistently top the Rabo, Leinster, Munster and Ulster should all finish in the top four of the league, all in essense qualifying for the league play offs and automatic European qualification for next season. They have, and for some time, perhaps always been the best sides in the league. Munster and Leinster have always been there or there abouts, but Ulster have over the past three seasons become a super power in their own right. The South African teams would offer a much higher challange than the failing Welsh regions, and more importantly, the South African teams would bring with them huge TV coverage, huge fan bases, and also a huge intensity.

Based on this theres two options:

1) We take advantage of SA teams possibly being ejected and form up a league with SA that will undoubtedly offer more money, more coverage, more intensity and better overall interest from the public than the Rabo ever could.

2) We push for SA to be included in the Rabo, and push for a two tier system. South Africa can easily produce 6 teams, I'm sure if needed they can go for 8 teams, but for this example I'll just choose six. Then we have two leagues of 9 teams, with promotion / relegation for the bottom two.



Issues however:

- Fans will hardly travel to SA for a league club game, and vice versa, so crowds will be fairly dead.

- European qualification, SA being inducted into the Pro12 or 'Pro 18' would not mean they gain entry into the HC/Champions cup. How would they fit into the whole thing.

- Travelling - Even though 'jet lag' applies to the time difference, the a flight from SA to Europe would be a gruelling 8 or so hours at least. Although the SA are half used to it with 6 hour flights to Australasia, would our lads be up for it? A huge strain

- Climate - Although our lads will be in winter mode and tactically prepared for trench warfare, a trip down to SA for an away game would mean stepping off into blistering heat given our winter is there summer, how would we adapt to this, you'd be freezing one week in mid winter, and then playing in ridiculous heat the next.

CatFromHue

The non SA members of SANZAR are doing whatever they can to appease SA as they know they SA bring the money to the SuperXV.

The new plans to make the SuperXV a Super18 don't come from NZ or OZ and certainly won't benefit them but NZ and OZ know they need to keep the SA Union and the SA TV market happy.

Deano7788

Given that they've just agreed the new Super Rugby structure and SA have been given an extra team, I don't think they'll be ejected anytime soon.

danthefan

Its obviously no secret that ANZAC rugby unions are discussing a possible cutting of SA rugby teams from competitions

Nope. They've just announced an expansion to 18 teams in the last week or so.

Bridge93

Glasgow are 2nd in the league and the form team out of everyone. Hardly abysmal.

.ak

Ulster already play in the Pro12/European Rugby?


















:pac:

Dravokivich

I don't get why it's so popular to spin the possibility of a league with SA. Even in the OP you state the time difference isn't a factor. But all that travelling will be very expensive, as well as the fatigue from it and quite a lot of time taken away from training/resting too.

Is this some sort of satire to mess with the common man or when people suggest it, are they actually serious?

CIARAN_BOYLE

Dravokivich wrote: »

I don't get why it's so popular to spin the possibility of a league with SA. Even in the OP you state the time difference isn't a factor. But all that travelling will be very expensive, as well as the fatigue from it and quite a lot of time taken away from training/resting too.

Is this some sort of satire to mess with the common man or when people suggest it, are they actually serious?

Its similar level of travelling to what SA teams have to do to travel to Aus and NZ. Imagine how Argentina will handle it when they get a team in the super 18.

lost my old account

Dravokivich wrote: »

I don't get why it's so popular to spin the possibility of a league with SA. Even in the OP you state the time difference isn't a factor. But all that travelling will be very expensive, as well as the fatigue from it and quite a lot of time taken away from training/resting too.

Is this some sort of satire to mess with the common man or when people suggest it, are they actually serious?

To be honest, in rugby we're not blessed with an array of top nations in close proximity like football might have. Big nations are far and wide between with the exception of Europe. Argentina and miles away from NZ and Australia, who are in turn miles away from SA, whilst also being miles away from Samoa, Fiji and Japan who are desperately trying to get involvement to make a step up to higher levels. I don't think we fully realise how lucky we are up North.

On another note, just for the sake of thought, you say that travelling etc will be impossible and expensive in other words which I agree with, but Rabo games are ALWAYS empty! They're absolutely dire, you only get two sets of fans when its a intra country game like Ulster Leinster. Seeing highlights from a Leinster game up in Edinburgh at Murrayfield makes me cringe deeply, its like watching a training game thats open to the public. The home fans must rank at about 5000, and you see the odd Leinster lot who are probably immigrants there for work in the first place.

I'm sure the situation crowd wise, if we played games in SA, would be of zero difference.

sydneybound

lost my old account wrote: »

Rabo games are ALWAYS empty! They're absolutely dire, you only get two sets of fans when its a intra country game like Ulster Leinster. Seeing highlights from a Leinster game up in Edinburgh at Murrayfield makes me cringe deeply, its like watching a training game thats open to the public. The home fans must rank at about 5000

In fairness that's an extreme example. Edinburgh play in Murrayfield and given its such a big stadium of course it would be difficult to fill it. Recently Edinburgh have been playing at a club ground and the atmosphere has been much better albeit the crowds slightly down. What will really help the Welsh clubs is if both Cardiff and Swansea are relegated from the Premier League, I know Cardiff are down and this will help the Blues. Knowing west wales quite well lots of floating sports fans in recent years starting supporting Swansea when they started flying up the divisions. If they went down next year (which I'm hoping!) the Ospreys crowds will go back up. In fairness the crowds in Ireland are not bad at all. In line with the top English clubs I'd say (Connacht apart), while the French clubs don't play in massive grounds.

lost my old account

sydneybound wrote: »

In fairness that's an extreme example. Edinburgh play in Murrayfield and given its such a big stadium of course it would be difficult to fill it. Recently Edinburgh have been playing at a club ground and the atmosphere has been much better albeit the crowds slightly down. What will really help the Welsh clubs is if both Cardiff and Swansea are relegated from the Premier League, I know Cardiff are down and this will help the Blues. Knowing west wales quite well lots of floating sports fans in recent years starting supporting Swansea when they started flying up the divisions. If they went down next year (which I'm hoping!) the Ospreys crowds will go back up. In fairness the crowds in Ireland are not bad at all. In line with the top English clubs I'd say (Connacht apart), while the French clubs don't play in massive grounds.

To be honest, I don't think its the football thats the issue, rugby in Wales is borderline a theistic ideology, the fans are there and so is the money. Again its the old argument about the regions having no history or support. New clubs do not work when it comes to crowds. You need identity to follow a club. Most of the time you follow a club due to your identity - where you grew up or what team your dad supports etc. None of that feels real or is possible over with new teams. You only have to look at other cases like in the S15. The super teams in Aus and NZ never fill out in all honesty. The viewing figures are woeful on tv too. For the Reds vs Tahs game, I believe which was the highest viewing figures in Australia for the entire S15 so for, was about 166,000 (citing Greenandgoldrugby com) or there abouts. Now compare that to Leinster vs Munster which in a Pro12 derby reached over 765,000 viewers on TG4 (tg4 ie/en/corporate/news-releases/2014/310314.html).

And thats over here, in a country with 5 Million on the Island compared to Aus' 25 Mil. The difference is, in my opinion, the fact that Leinster and Munster have an identity whereas the newly created teams don't. Even if youre new to rugby its easy to pick up the history of the teams and get involved. You simply don't get that with the new teams. A bit off topic now but my original point is, that viewership in the Welsh regions will really struggle to ever pick up unless they have some millionaire buy them and buy them the biggest and best which may then get them some more fans.

But until then, the second biggest nation club wise in the Rabo is shockingly far behind what it should be bringing, both success and money wise.

Edit Ive had to remove the links partially as i'm a "new user" and can't post URLs

CIARAN_BOYLE

lost my old account wrote: »

To be honest, I don't think its the football thats the issue, rugby in Wales is borderline a theistic ideology, the fans are there and so is the money. Again its the old argument about the regions having no history or support. New clubs do not work when it comes to crowds. You need identity to follow a club. Most of the time you follow a club due to your identity - where you grew up or what team your dad supports etc. None of that feels real or is possible over with new teams. You only have to look at other cases like in the S15. The super teams in Aus and NZ never fill out in all honesty. The viewing figures are woeful on tv too. For the Reds vs Tahs game, I believe which was the highest viewing figures in Australia for the entire S15 so for, was about 166,000 (citing Greenandgoldrugby com) or there abouts. Now compare that to Leinster vs Munster which in a Pro12 derby reached over 765,000 viewers on TG4 (tg4 ie/en/corporate/news-releases/2014/310314.html).

And thats over here, in a country with 5 Million on the Island compared to Aus' 25 Mil. The difference is, in my opinion, the fact that Leinster and Munster have an identity whereas the newly created teams don't. Even if youre new to rugby its easy to pick up the history of the teams and get involved. You simply don't get that with the new teams. A bit off topic now but my original point is, that viewership in the Welsh regions will really struggle to ever pick up unless they have some millionaire buy them and buy them the biggest and best which may then get them some more fans.

But until then, the second biggest nation club wise in the Rabo is shockingly far behind what it should be bringing, both success and money wise.

Edit Ive had to remove the links partially as i'm a "new user" and can't post URLs

Little of column A, little of column B.

There is probably a club support base through wales about the same size of the regions support base.

However there is a core (about half the size of the regional fan base) floating sports fans in Wales who will go a match every second weekend and will go to the match that is the highest calibre not caring which sport it is.

To these people Wales Rugby Internationals > Premier League > Wales Soccer Internationals> Rabo > Championship and some of these will be returning to Welsh rugby with the relegation of Cardiff.

lost my old account

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Little of column A, little of column B.

There is probably a club support base through wales about the same size of the regions support base.

However there is a core (about half the size of the regional fan base) floating sports fans in Wales who will go a match every second weekend and will go to the match that is the highest calibre not caring which sport it is.

To these people Wales Rugby Internationals > Premier League > Wales Soccer Internationals> Rabo > Championship and some of these will be returning to Welsh rugby with the relegation of Cardiff.

Fair point, but even when they do I wonder if it;ll be sustainable. The welsh football teams seem stronger than theyve ever been, even a season or two in the premiership is enough to give a club the monetary resources to be competing for promotion for a good while.

I still believe that, given you said they go for the highest sporting attraction in the land, that fixing up the regions is necessery. Although thats stating the obvious that topics been discussed to death. Heres hoping that central contracting, additional money etc will keep the teams strong. Success will start to build history and a legacy. With that comes even more cash from paying punters and the Euro Rugby for reaching higher stages of the competition. I think in total if you reach the title, the accumulation from playing in the quarter finals, semi finals and final is around 2Mil which is enormous at this level.

[Jackass]

Down the line it would be great to see an expanded Pro12 to include SA teams and also inclusion in the European thingy, but for now I think it's important to just build the league up on it's own merit.

With the expansion of super rugby to have Argentinian, Japanese and possibly Pacific Island / North American teams, there's an opportunity to grow the sport globally and not do damage to existing structures.

LeinsterDub

[Jackass] wrote: »

Down the line it would be great to see an expanded Pro12 to include SA teams and also inclusion in the European thingy, but for now I think it's important to just build the league up on it's own merit.

With the expansion of super rugby to have Argentinian, Japanese and possibly Pacific Island / North American teams, there's an opportunity to grow the sport globally and not do damage to existing structures.

Super rugby's expansion has become a farce now. Travel times of nearly a day, games in different seasons and 14 hour time differences. There is a reason the world cup is every 4 years.

Neil3030

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Little of column A, little of column B.

There is probably a club support base through wales about the same size of the regions support base.

However there is a core (about half the size of the regional fan base) floating sports fans in Wales who will go a match every second weekend and will go to the match that is the highest calibre not caring which sport it is.

To these people Wales Rugby Internationals > Premier League > Wales Soccer Internationals> Rabo > Championship and some of these will be returning to Welsh rugby with the relegation of Cardiff.

I've been living in Wales the last few months and while they are at pains to claim that the clubs are more important than the regions, it's just not backed up by any evidence. The recent Swalec Cup final between Ponty and Cross Keys had only the middle tier of the Millenium stadium open, and being generous, I'd say it was a third full. I can't find an official stat for the attendance anywhere, but I'd be shocked if more than around 5,000 were at it.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Neil3030 wrote: »

I've been living in Wales the last few months and while they are at pains to claim that the clubs are more important than the regions, it's just not backed up by any evidence. The recent Swalec Cup final between Ponty and Cross Keys had only the middle tier of the Millenium stadium open, and being generous, I'd say it was a third full. I can't find an official stat for the attendance anywhere, but I'd be shocked if more than around 5,000 were at it.

Sure ponty had more fans when they welcomed Leinster in the b&i than that

[Jackass]

The ratio of attendance figures to population would be much higher for Welsh rugby clubs than regions. You must keep in mind that clubs are small geographical areas compared to regions and thus fan base is massively diluted for the club game. Ospreys might get 7 / 8,000 at a game but covers a region of c. 300,000 population.

Pontypridd gets around 5,000 for bigger games but is a town of only 30,000 people.