The number of City Council employees

Rhys Essien

In 2013,the number of employees was 2,279 costing €73 million annually.In 2007,the figure was 2,745.

What in the name of Jesus are all they people doing in this small city of ours?

Everywhere you look,there is long grass,dirty walls,rusty railings,dirty derelict buildings,potholes,no lines painted on roads,bad old road signage,etc etc

The ironic thing,the City Council applied for funding to paint the Shaky bridge which is starting to rust badly,and were not successful in getting any.What are these gombeens playing at?.How much are a few cans of paint.

As Diarmuid Gavin said the whole lot of them are a shower of clowns.

kub

Bloody leeches and incompetent gombeens the lot of them.

applehunter

Total inertia.

Lots of good people have gone in there with great ideas and enthusiasm but there soon the realization dawns on them that the council is a self serving system not a system to serve the city.

pwurple

I know a council employee fairly well (member of my extended family). He is completely disheartened with the job. Their hands are tied by the management structure. They are not allowed to work on problems they see, he has to wait to be specifically instructed to do tasks. Finds it infuriating. He said he could easily do double the work he is being instructed to do, and ends up sitting on his hands waiting around for a lot of his day. Soul-destroying stuff.

kub

The other thing that I have also wondered about are these 'go car' parking spaces opposite City Hall and on Copley St.
I think they can be hired by the hour or something like that. I have a suspicion that there is some sort of a deal there for reserved parking spaces for a private company on public roads, with City Council staff then being their major customer.
I smell a rat.

Rhys Essien

btw I mean the hierarchy/management are the clowns,incapable of running the show.The vast majority of the ordinary people there are decent people I would imagine.

I still want to know,what are they all doing every day?.Thats nearly as many people as the likes of EMC or Apple.

Then you see the likes of all that old timber hoarding thats half falling down, on Brian Boru street,with a heap of weeds growing out of it,and you wonder will these fools ever sort it out.

Then they say they want more tourists to come to the city and they cant manage it in the first place.The tourists have to walk past this $hit going to and from the train station every day.:mad:

run_Forrest_run

pwurple wrote: »

I know a council employee fairly well (member of my extended family). He is completely disheartened with the job. Their hands are tied by the management structure. They are not allowed to work on problems they see, he has to wait to be specifically instructed to do tasks. Finds it infuriating. He said he could easily do double the work he is being instructed to do, and ends up sitting on his hands waiting around for a lot of his day. Soul-destroying stuff.

Would he not leave the job if it's that soul destroying? OK, I may sound mad but this is the problem, people stay in there for the job, but jaysus, if it's to the point of soul destroying it could affect your health etc.

Management will never change if they see that the people working for them have no intention of ever leaving. Management will act when they are forced to act and if good workers leave then it's on their heads.

Dannyboy83

Even some of the most left wing people I know will admit that the council are a blight upon Cork.

evilivor

In 2006, the top five employers in Cork were all public sector which included Cork University Hospital, UCC, Collin’s Barrack’s, Cork City Council and CIT. Apple Computers were the sixth largest employer in 2006 followed by Supervalu / Centra Distribution Ltd, Mercy Hospital, Bon Secours and Boston Scientific.

In 2011 while CUH was still the largest employer in the City, Apple Operations Europe were then the second largest employer in Cork City followed by UCC, Boston Scientific, Cork City Council, the Bons, Supervalu/Centra, Collin’s Barrack, Mercy Hospital, Blizzard, South Infirmary/Victoria Hospital, Cork County Council* and Bord Gais.



* Cork County Council only included employees based within the city boundary.

Red Nissan

From the horses mouth. Had a great chat with an ex City Councillor today, he basically supported the view that he just went along for the spin ~ before his city career he had been in the county council works in various roles form being in charge of men and projects and he knew when the elected officials were stonewalling, so he only put in an effort when he thought he could win.

As an elected official in the City Council he knew when he was not going to get support so he basically had a holiday for himself until he retired.

His message is to look to the young people.

Manach

Personally I'd assumed like most other workers, the council types are both professional and hardworking. It is the the system itself at fault; reflective of a trend to increase growth of the state sector common in almost all Western countries:ie to have greater control over most facets of what was once outside the public sphere. Offhand, the bests systems to check these are were the voters have a closer say in what there tax monies are spent on - such as Swiss Cantons or New England townhalls. Until this happens, this scoleric and burdensome system will keep growing.

lostinsuperfunk

The other thing that I have also wondered about are these 'go car' parking spaces opposite City Hall and on Copley St.
I think they can be hired by the hour or something like that. I have a suspicion that there is some sort of a deal there for reserved parking spaces for a private company on public roads, with City Council staff then being their major customer.
I smell a rat.

GoCar is a great service, and I use it occasionally. Yes, it is a private company with reserved spaces on the public road, but any individual or organisation can join. Cork City Council may have corporate membership. There are around five parking spaces reserved for GoCar in the entire city, so it is hardly a big deal. Schemes like this are very popular in the World Outside Cork.

Re: growth of the state sector, the OP's figures show the number of employees fell by 17% in only six years. A similar trend has been ongoing for decades, with more and more local government services being outsourced to private enterprise, often at huge expense (civil engineering design, road works, refuse collection and of course now water). The council is very far from perfect, but privatisation does not necessarily lead to cheaper or better services.

Manach

There is a mixed result from privatisation but it has lead to better services in say telecoms or airlines. There might be better conditions for say the managerial class but it would be redundent to say that conditions for ordinary workers would have become worst. However, as well the overall level of state control has increased both as a percentage of GDP and per number of employees employed by the state directly/indirectly which is an upward trend inspite of the great Recession - from figures in the text 'Power and Choice', fig 16.1 which shows a nearly 4 fold increase in public employees over a 50Y period in the US. Given the increase in state and semi-state bodies in Ireland since EU membership, then this is likely to be reflected in Ireland.

soundsham

I worked for someone who was subcontracted to the city council a few years back
He was doing some work that their own guys were to busy to do ......
After doing a few jobs he was contacted by a foreman in the council stating that if he continued to these jobs the council would end up leaving off some of "his men"
The subcontractor told him that as he was busy on other contracts also other than the council ones he would take on these men and told the foreman to send them to his office the following Monday for a start

That was the end of the phone call !!

FrStone

Manach wrote: »

There is a mixed result from privatisation but it has lead to better services in say telecoms or airlines.

People always forget to include the privatization of the ESB, which led to much higher prices. It actually involved the Regulator having to increase prices before the sell off to ensure that private operators would enter the markets.

Regarding refuse collection, pay for the bin men has decreased significantly, which is a real shame.

The selling off of AerLingus only led to massive problems with the employees pensions. I reckon the price we pay would have decreased anyway what with the competition from low cost carriers. I'm not arguing with the sell off it had to happen, but it has led to a significant decrease in conditions for workers.

Manach wrote: »

The text 'Power and Choice', fig 16.1 which shows a nearly 4 fold increase in public employees over a 50Y period in the US. Given the increase in state and semi-state bodies in Ireland since EU membership, then this is likely to be reflected in Ireland.

I wonder are those figures skewed though, the US has a very low level of State employees in comparisson to developed EU countries anyway, so a four fold increase from a low starting rate wouldn't be massive, how many state employees per 1,000 workers is the real question, and how much has it changed in the past 20 years.

Roger Hassenforder

A big problem with public service in general, is frequently people arent promoted on merit, but who performs best at an interview (assuming no stroke is being pulled). Those that rock the boat get a name of being a trouble maker. It seems the best way to move up, is maintain the status quo, dont make a decision. No reward for high performers, and no sanctions for poor performers. Most public servants i know are working hard in a completely dysfunctional system, with an emphasis on administration rather than provision of " front line services".

pwurple

run_Forrest_run wrote: »

Would he not leave the job if it's that soul destroying? OK, I may sound mad but this is the problem, people stay in there for the job, but jaysus, if it's to the point of soul destroying it could affect your health etc.

Management will never change if they see that the people working for them have no intention of ever leaving. Management will act when they are forced to act and if good workers leave then it's on their heads.

He has about 3 or 4 years left to retirement age. I guess he doesn't want to go off interviewing, or doesn't think anyone would take him on. He workedin private sector most of his life, so it was a shock to the system.

rovoagho

Manach wrote: »

There is a mixed result from privatisation but it has lead to better services in say telecoms or airlines.

<ROFL>

Manach

rovoagho wrote: »

<ROFL>

Thank you for your well reasoned, analytic and procedural argued rebuttal of my argument that shows the intellect depths you are so demonstrably capable.

rovoagho

Sorry, but your assertion is laughable, which is why I laughed. A genuine laugh, although I'll admit I didn't roll on floor.

But I'll tell you what, you post some supporting evidence and I'll be happy to refute it. Or better yet, go and make your claim about improvements in comms over on the IrelandOffline or Broadband forums, and you won't have to deal with me at all. Go on, I dare you.

Manach

Dare me?, dear me you are aware this is not a playground. I'd already provide supporting evidence to my main point about the growth of the public sector. You've not provided any counter-argumental evidence beyond your own opinion and my own opinion is based on work experience in the international telecom sector.

rovoagho

You made the assertion about improvements in the comms sector, the onus is on you to support that with evidence. I wouldn't bother if I were you, it doesn't exist. Perhaps continue to try to distract from that?

aujopimur

These are my observations of a City Council worker, leaves for work 7.45 am, returns home 9.15, back "to work" 10.30, home for lunch 12.15, back to work again 2,15, home and finished for the day, 3.30.

Manach

Do you think I'm bothered with you or the fact that you think I care how I have to "deal" with you. You have an intellectual difficulty if you think the purpose of a thread is to post any evidence just so can refute it at will.
So as an aside I'll refer you to Dodd's - Guide to Telecommunications (5th Ed) which provides in Chp3 and Chp8 improvements post break-up of a semi-state and state monopolies in the sector and how they subsequently grew in customer service and technophiles.
But leaving that aside, your tone has gone from schoolyard to just plain hectoring troll. I don't think I'd need any evidence for that beyond the content of your posts.

Roger Hassenforder

Manach wrote: »

Do you think I'm bothered with you or the fact that you think I care how I have to "deal" with you. You have an intellectual difficulty if you think the purpose of a thread is to post any evidence just so can refute it at will.
So as an aside I'll refer you to Dodd's - Guide to Telecommunications (5th Ed) which provides in Chp3 and Chp8 improvements post break-up of a semi-state and state monopolies in the sector and how they subsequently grew in customer service and technophiles.
But leaving that aside, your tone has gone from schoolyard to just plain hectoring troll. I don't think I'd need any evidence for that beyond the content of your posts.

dude, when you come down of your high horse of indignation, consider confining your argument to papers actually on the topic. Dood, whose book an "industry bible for mobile, Internet, and networking services" is hardly the arbiter for/against privitization?

A quick google would have returned more specific, something like this:

Privatisation of Public Services and theImpact on Quality, Employment andProductivity (PIQUE) – Final Report

from which:

"The...project has shown that liberalisation and privatisation of public services
have largely negative effects on employment and working conditions and varied
effects on productivity and service quality. Positive effects and better performance
as compared to other countries were mostly the result of superior regulation rather
than of competition or private corporate initiative.

Or even a trend of public sector employees/time in an economy not too removed from our own:

there's pros and cons to privitization. one slighly irrelevant book, or indeed unverifiable anecdotes, does not prove the case. I fear there are far more cons though.
I apprecite your antagonist will have to improve their game also.

Manach

First, I'm quite satisfied with my tone - if that poster wished to drag a thread off course by seeking undermine a position by an initial dismissive posting, I'm capable of matching them, one skill picked up from boards.ie.
Second, that paper is interesting and I will look through it. But to re-iterate I'm was only discussing privatization within the context of the telecoms sector. If you had looked at the original posting, I'd had also mentioned the negative effects there of privatisation and tried to be balanced. So my referencing of Dodd, as it is one of the main texts on the telecom's industry (putting it into the appropriate context technology, law, business and technology) was appropriate. So I am finding it odd that you are resorting to backing up a position by appealing to google, when doing the same for "benefits" also bring back numerous articles in its favour.
So if you wish to up your commenting game, perhaps it might be best for you to read and research a topic instead of relying on google.

Roger Hassenforder

Manach wrote: »

First, I'm quite satisfied with my tone - if that poster wished to drag a thread off course by seeking undermine a position by an initial dismissive posting, I'm capable of matching them, one skill picked up from boards.ie.
Second, that paper is interesting and I will look through it. But to re-iterate I'm was only discussing privatization within the context of the telecoms sector. If you had looked at the original posting, I'd had also mentioned the negative effects there of privatisation and tried to be balanced. So my referencing of Dodd, as it is one of the main texts on the telecom's industry (putting it into the appropriate context technology, law, business and technology) was appropriate. So I am finding it odd that you are resorting to backing up a position by appealing to google, when doing the same for "benefits" also bring back numerous articles in its favour.
So if you wish to up your commenting game, perhaps it might be best for you to read and research a topic instead of relying on google.

Im limited in my access to research material, however google is merely another tool to access independant, peer reviewed papers and journals rather than relying on the one book on my shelf.
Its irrelevant how one sources their material, as long as one does.
Your earlier post re subsidiarity was a very valid one, and the current disconnect between local and central government only exascerbates the situation. We have no need of our current bloated civil service.

rovoagho

I don't know whether the OP lives in this country, but anyone with any experience of comms in this country knows that the privatisation of Telecom Eireann was and remains a failure in every sense of the word. There's been chronic under-investment in the network, mostly due to a string of ridiculously-leveraged buyouts that should never have been allowed by our appalling regulator, and the government is back picking up the tab for fibre now. We rank badly on price, coverage and speed, across the board. Where's the success exactly?

I laughed because it was funny. Ridiculous in fact.

lostinsuperfunk

The telecoms service in Ireland under the old P&T monopoly was pretty terrible for domestic customers in the early 80s. It improved dramatically in the 90s, by which time Telecom Eireann had become an innovative semi-state company and the infrastructure was very modern. However, the fixed line telecom situation has been an unmitigated disaster since privatisation, mainly due to chronic under-investment by a succession of asset-stripper owners.

I don't share manach's view that EU membership is somehow associated with the alleged (but probably illusory) growth in public sector employment. I would contend the opposite is the case: liberalisation and privatisation in many formerly state-controlled sectors (transport, energy, telecoms, waste, etc.) has been as a direct result of EU directives. I would agree that results have been mixed (air transport is probably one of the better ones) but it seems to me that in general the beneficiaries of these policies have been the former state monopolies in large EU countries (EdF, Deutsch Post, Telefonica, etc.) at the expense of smaller local players and consumers.

We all know that markets have been rigged and prices raised by regulators to ensure adequate profit for new private entrants, and ridiculous minimum usage clauses, e.g. in PPP roads projects, protect private enterprise from any risk. This is of course is the fault of public procurement, but in many cases it has been captured by private interests.

j8wk2feszrnpao

FrStone wrote: »

Regarding refuse collection, pay for the bin men has decreased significantly, which is a real shame.

The selling off of AerLingus only led to massive problems with the employees pensions. I reckon the price we pay would have decreased anyway what with the competition from low cost carriers. I'm not arguing with the sell off it had to happen, but it has led to a significant decrease in conditions for workers.

For both the bin men and the Aer Lingus employees, do you have any details on what their pay/conditions/holidays/benefits/pensions are?

I only ask because I recently had a conversation with someone who works in one of Cork's public hospitals.
She complained that she had to work two extra hours for the same pay, and lost one days holiday.
I had sympathy, until I asked how many hours and holidays that left her with; which meant a 37hr week and now 23 days hols.
I already knew that she manages to take 1 sick day each month as well (so 35 holidays).

I always hear of 'reduced conditions' but never the pay/terms that they now are reduced to (or now enjoy).

Rhys Essien

We now have 31 city councillors and 51 county councillors.Thats 1 for every 6341 people in the whole of Cork.A complete waste of money.40 councillors in total would have been more than enough.

Not to mention a certain councillor being re-elected who in recent years,claimed serious over the top expenses money,amongst others.

yenom

Rhys Essien wrote: »

We now have 31 city councillors and 51 county councillors.Thats 1 for every 6341 people in the whole of Cork.A complete waste of money.40 councillors in total would have been more than enough.

Not to mention a certain councillor being re-elected who in recent years,claimed serious over the top expenses money,amongst others.

40 councillors for the whole of Cork? What would someone down in Youghal have in common with someone in Mayfield? You'd have the county councillors outvoting the city councillors at every meetins.