Ayrton Senna

Interslice

RIP

jayok

Even after all this time, he's still the F1 drivers', F1 driver...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80517

SCOOP 64

"Reigning world champion Jenson Button " what?, them i looked at the date of the article in Autosport.com.

YbFocus

Just posted about him in the chat thread, I wish I could have seen his races live. I was only a whipper snapper when it happened though so I can only watch the races back on the web!

MadYaker

Got the "Senna" DVD ages ago but haven't watched it yet

YbFocus

MadYaker wrote: »

Got the "Senna" DVD ages ago but haven't watched it yet

Well worth a couple of hours tonight Mad!

Its on Netflix too for anyone that has it. Well worth the watch

dr.fuzzenstein

MadYaker wrote: »

Got the "Senna" DVD ages ago but haven't watched it yet

Utterly brilliant!
Apparently he could drive "through" a corner, i.e. the front wheel would miss the apex by millimetres, that means the rear wheel, which has a wider track, would have clipped it. So he gave it a little flick and the rear of the car would slide and just about make the corner.
From the outside it looked like he drove "through" the solid obstacle that made up the corner.
http://www.autoevolution.com/news/why-ayrton-senna-was-brilliant-sam-posey-s-take-video-79617.html
Some of the in-car footage is unbelievable, no-one could touch him.
Some drivers manage to drive a car to it's full potential, but he managed to actually drive beyond that.
So if the engineer said the car was capable of doing a lap in 60 seconds, some drivers could come very close, but only he could get it round the track in under a minute.

jayok

Snotaul Goodman wrote: »

Its on Netflix too for anyone that has it. Well worth the watch

Hmmm.... I get that it's unavailable to stream

furiousox

Saw him race at Silverstone twice (the years he ran out of fuel) and Spa once, although I was really there to cheer on the Jordans.
Wasn't there a story that he deliberately crashed a car once to get it on pole?
Don't know which circuit, but he worked out that if he didn't brake like everyone else for the corner after the line he would crash, but also get pole position.
The dvd is fantastic although I'll never understand why they left out that wet first lap at Donington.
It sums up his brilliance perfectly.

(Skip to 3:00)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwLEE420v20

emo72

just a warning to anyone who hasnt seen Senna yet, watch it on your own and have a pack of kleenex handy, or else have your excuses ready. i was choking up watching it with the missus. i nearly lost it:(

mondeoman2

Senna is on Itv4 tonight at 22.30:-)

BrianD3

There is a programme "The Day Senna Died" starting on BBC Radio 5 live in about 2 minutes
http://www.bbc.co.uk/5live

deise08

Lets pay our respects to roland ratzenberger also.

chrisb1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=oeO2q8FzcnM

Sound of senna for those who havn't seen this it's a piece of art

ironclaw

Incredible. Full manual shift. Terrifying. When men were men.

RayM

furiousox wrote: »

Wasn't there a story that he deliberately crashed a car once to get it on pole?
Don't know which circuit, but he worked out that if he didn't brake like everyone else for the corner after the line he would crash, but also get pole position.

I think that might have happened at the French Grand Prix at Magny Cours. The finish line was just after a tight right-hander, and the fastest way to get to it would have involved throwing the car around the corner at full speed and then spinning/crashing over the line. It's the sort of thing only Senna would have risked.

dr.fuzzenstein

RayM wrote: »

I think that might have happened at the French Grand Prix at Magny Cours. The finish line was just after a tight right-hander, and the fastest way to get to it would have involved throwing the car around the corner at full speed and then spinning/crashing over the line. It's the sort of thing only Senna would have risked.

Suzuka 1990, Senna had pole but was put on the dirty side of the track, giving Prost the advantage.
Senna stated that he has pole and therefore deserves the lead and if anyone gets in his way in the first corner, he will not move.
It won him the title.
People loved him for it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvSgJDIsRnc

What I don't understand is that people loved him for it, but hated Schumacher because he would do the exact same thing given the same situation.

furiousox

RayM wrote: »

I think that might have happened at the French Grand Prix at Magny Cours. The finish line was just after a tight right-hander, and the fastest way to get to it would have involved throwing the car around the corner at full speed and then spinning/crashing over the line. It's the sort of thing only Senna would have risked.

I think you're spot on there, cheers.

Rowley Birkin QC

I was only 10 but still remember exactly where I was when I heard he was gone. Coming out of Cork City at the skew bridge after being at a match in Páirc Uí Chaoimh with my dad and grandfather, Sunday Sport interrupted coverage to announce it.

It was a terrible end to an unbelievable talent. The "Senna" film is utterly amazing, my girlfriend has zero interest in F1 and was captivated by it.

Engine No.9

I just watched it there on US Netflix. Tragic, tragic end.

Am I correct in saying that that was the same corner that Barricello went off on the same weekend? It wasn't referenced but I thought they looked the same.

weekaizer

pajopearl wrote: »

I just watched it there on US Netflix. Tragic, tragic end.

Am I correct in saying that that was the same corner that Barricello went off on the same weekend? It wasn't referenced but I thought they looked the same.

I think barricello went off on a chicane around the back of the imola track. Senna went off at tamburello which used to be a long left hander, today it is a left right chicane.

Watching it again on itv4. That moment he won the Brazilian grand prix was something else. 6th gear!!

Dord

YbFocus wrote: »

Just posted about him in the chat thread, I wish I could have seen his races live. I was only a whipper snapper when it happened though so I can only watch the races back on the web!

I was watching that race on tv when it happened.

Such a legend.

Senna

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

What I don't understand is that people loved him for it, but hated Schumacher because he would do the exact same thing given the same situation.

Yeah but nobody liked Prost

MortGoldman

weekaizer wrote: »

I think barricello went off on a chicane around the back of the imola track. Senna went off at tamburello which used to be a long left hander, today it is a left right chicane.

Barrichello's crash happened at the old Variante Bassa, which was changed after 94. I think the new pit buildings now are sitting on the spot where Rubens crashed.

No Pants

He was the first driver that I can remember cheating to win. I had pretty much stopped watching F1 at that point. It already wasn't the sport that I'd grown up watching.

dr.fuzzenstein

No Pants wrote: »

He was the first driver that I can remember cheating to win. I had pretty much stopped watching F1 at that point. It already wasn't the sport that I'd grown up watching.

It's funny how he was loved and someone like Schumacher was reviled for essentially doing the same thing.
It's different today, as soon as two cars come within 10 meters of each other, there's a steward's enquiry and everyone loses their points.
Back then F1 was a meat eating, bourbon swilling, cigar smoking and womanising sport engaged in by proper men with way too much testosterone.
Today it's vegan, tofu eating, green tea drinking, CO2 concerned, safe driving, bed-wetting pootling around whilst making sure that not too much noise is made so the sandal wearing brigade is not offended. :mad:
I cry for F1, I thought it had died when grooved tires came in, but no refuelling, sticking in electric motors and stupid, opening wings to create pointless artificial overtaking killed it altogether.

H3llR4iser

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

It's funny how he was loved and someone like Schumacher was reviled for essentially doing the same thing.
It's different today, as soon as two cars come within 10 meters of each other, there's a steward's enquiry and everyone loses their points.
Back then F1 was a meat eating, bourbon swilling, cigar smoking and womanising sport engaged in by proper men with way too much testosterone.
Today it's vegan, tofu eating, green tea drinking, CO2 concerned, safe driving, bed-wetting pootling around whilst making sure that not too much noise is made so the sandal wearing brigade is not offended. :mad:
I cry for F1, I thought it had died when grooved tires came in, but no refuelling, sticking in electric motors and stupid, opening wings to create pointless artificial overtaking killed it altogether.

It's difficult to explain; Maybe the simplest way to say it is that Schumahcer's actions were often gratuitous (e.g. pushing somebody off track while not really fighting for the championship) and that he often kinda knew his behaviour would go unpunished because of the car he drove - let's be honest, at the time the FIA was wrapped around Ferrari's little finger and a lot of their shenanigans would have landed any other team in deep trouble (e.g. Silverstone '98s ignored penalty, winning Sepang '99 with two illegal cars and so on).

So in a way, it could be said that while Senna was there to bear the full brunt of his actions (with many fans also thinking he was the victim of a pro-Prost FISA, which is kinda bullcr4p, but still), Schumacher is seen as hiding himself behind the Ferrari shield; A thing that is further supported by the fact that it's extremely difficult to find a Schumacher detractor in Italy, while they're ten a penny anywhere else (even in Germany).

And yes, today's "steward inquiries" about running over a fly are the most annoying thing - Grosjean overtaking Massa on the outside of turn 4 in Budapest last year would be a pretty good example: wheels out or not, it took massive cojones and punishing the move certainly doesn't encourage drivers to take risks and fight for positions.

Can't agree on the refueling part 'though, as they produced the most boring era of F1, when drivers just followed each other waiting for the pitstops.

No Pants

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

It's funny how he was loved and someone like Schumacher was reviled for essentially doing the same thing.
It's different today, as soon as two cars come within 10 meters of each other, there's a steward's enquiry and everyone loses their points.
Back then F1 was a meat eating, bourbon swilling, cigar smoking and womanising sport engaged in by proper men with way too much testosterone.
Today it's vegan, tofu eating, green tea drinking, CO2 concerned, safe driving, bed-wetting pootling around whilst making sure that not too much noise is made so the sandal wearing brigade is not offended. :mad:
I cry for F1, I thought it had died when grooved tires came in, but no refuelling, sticking in electric motors and stupid, opening wings to create pointless artificial overtaking killed it altogether.

I grew up with Nelson Piquet, Keke Rosberg, Alan Jones, Jacques Laffite & Didier Pironi, Gilles Villeneuve and Michele Alboreto, the last three being ex-Ferrari drivers.

For me, the end was when the commentators started spending a considerable amount of time talking about pitstop strategy.

dr.fuzzenstein

Senna wrote: »

Yeah but nobody liked Prost

Yeah, but you're biased

Gamb!t

Slightly off topic but was there an extended version of the movie documentary released a year or so ago ?

ironclaw

Gamb!t wrote: »

Slightly off topic but was there an extended version of the movie documentary released a year or so ago ?

There are two cuts. A directors and a standard cut. Very little in the difference to be honest. Just slightly longer file / archive footage. You don't miss anything. I've watched both and the only way I noticed was the subtitles started to drift in timing as one version was slightly longer.

furiousox

Isn't there a 2 disc version of the dvd as well?

AugustusMinimus

I'm sure there is a longer version which has an incredible amount of interviews with former drivers.

The only version for any enthusiast to watch.

cfuserkildare

Possibly the wrong place for this, So if it is then can Mods post it in the correct location.

I was watching the in-car footage just the crash, and I noticed what looks like the front left wing flapping about for about a half lap?

Could this have been why the accident happened?

ironclaw

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Possibly the wrong place for this, So if it is then can Mods post it in the correct location.

I was watching the in-car footage just the crash, and I noticed what looks like the front left wing flapping about for about a half lap?

Could this have been why the accident happened?

Pretty sure the crash was attributed to the steering column or similar. The industry drive had been to make things smaller, lighter and overall faster at the compromise of safety i.e. If we can remove 1mm from the circumference and 'just' get away with it then we will. Senna himself had raised concerns at Lotus I believe over this practise. He wasn't the first or the last to die in the pursuit of weight minimisation.

cfuserkildare

Hi ironclaw,

That is the way of high level Motor-Sport.

However, perhaps the supplier of the metal should be held responsible for the ability to handle stresses and wear.

The video footage does look unusual though, almost implies that there could be a similarity to Ratzenbergers fatal crash the day before.

Not sure if anybody has looked into this angle properly.

ironclaw

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Hi ironclaw,

That is the way of high level Motor-Sport.

However, perhaps the supplier of the metal should be held responsible for the ability to handle stresses and wear.

The video footage does look unusual though, almost implies that there could be a similarity to Ratzenbergers fatal crash the day before.

Not sure if anybody has looked into this angle properly.

I can assure you the footage was scrutinised to the n'th degree. Its a text book case and there are multiple documentaries on it. I even read the report myself. In any case, it was a long time ago and we've come a long way. Not wishing to make it any less tragic, but I think this one is best left as it lies. There is nothing to gain from going over it again, we lost a legend. Thats enough

cfuserkildare

Another observation that bothered me for a while is the arc shaped marking on Senna's helmet.
Has nobody else questioned the diameter of the partial circle mark and compared it to the size of the steering wheel?
The arc impact mark on the front right of the helmet is too small to be a 13" diameter racing wheel! It is the same size as the Steering Wheel!!

Odd that no-one else seems to have brought this to anybody elses attention.

Cee-Jay-Cee

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

What I don't understand is that people loved him for it, but hated Schumacher because he would do the exact same thing given the same situation.

The difference is that Senna was warm and charismatic, Schumacher was a typical German, calculated and cold in manner. A persons opinion on someone will influence what they say about that persons actions in a given situation.

tossy

CJC999 wrote: »

... a typical German, calculated and cold in manner.

That's a mad auld statement Ted.

leeroybrown

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Another observation that bothered me for a while is the arc shaped marking on Senna's helmet.
Has nobody else questioned the diameter of the partial circle mark and compared it to the size of the steering wheel?
The arc impact mark on the front right of the helmet is too small to be a 13" diameter racing wheel! It is the same size as the Steering Wheel!!

Odd that no-one else seems to have brought this to anybody elses attention.

There's no point in going over it all again. It was a tragic accident in a dangerous sport where at the time everyone accepted the risk of driving cars that were fast first and safe second. What needed to be learned from the incident has been learned so picking over it serves no purpose anymore. Remember him for for the driver he was not this incident.

dr.fuzzenstein

I saw a documentary on the accident.
What killed him was not the steering wheel or the tire, but a suspension component that was hanging off the wheel. He hit the barrier, the wheel came off and whatever bits where hanging off it pierced the helmet and killed him.
It was a complete freak accident, completely survivable at the time, he could have crashed there a million times and survived, but it was just extraordinary bad luck.