Rent Allowance Problem with Tenant.

ZENER

So a property is advertised to let. The letting Agent is instructed to inform all interested parties that HSE Rent Allowance clients will not be accepted. An interested party accepts these terms, pays a deposit and a month in advance and moves in to the property.

14 days later the tenant calls asking to meet so that some "paperwork" can be sorted, they are told to talk to the agent. The agent calls the LL to inform them that the "paperwork" is in fact the forms required to be signed by a landlord for the tenant to qualify or receive rent allowance. The tenants are recent arrivals to Ireland with one just recently given citizenship - may be relevant but not sure yet.

On their references one claimed to be a PSV driver - Taxi, saw the taxi so happy with that. The other claimed to have a business in the local town, this turned out to be untrue, this person only recently received citizenship and is in receipt of social welfare. The taxi driver does not have citizenship nor is he entitled to rent allowance due to having a job and an income.

This couple want the form signed so they can both claim rent allowance.

Aside from the intended fraud attempt it was made clear at all stages that Rent Allowance would not be entertained or accepted. They have been informed that they can remain in the property so long as the rent is paid on the agreed date every month or they can move out. Their decision is pending.

What right's does the landlord have now ? The agent is due the first months rent as payment so all the LL is left with is the deposit but no rent as of yet unless the tenant accepts the conditions. The tenants have been given the obligatory 14 days to vacate if they do not accept these conditions so the Landlord is out 1 months rent and has a deposit that by right should be forfeited by the tenant yes ?

Any comments very much appreciated.

Ken

The_Conductor

Sign the papers by all means- however, stick with the facts, do not lie, only sign that which you can substantiate. If you have reason to doubt the veracity of any of the information on the forms- report it to the DSFA. Make the tenants 100% aware that their tenancy is subject to them paying the rent, on or before a specific date each month- at the agreed level of rent- and any issues they encounter with DSFA are their issues- not yours.

Do not lie on the forms under any circumstance- and do not sign anything you know to be inaccurate, incomplete or untrue.

murphaph

Aside: I can see this sort of thing happening more often as the pool of landlords willing to engage with the crazy RS system dwindles. Landlords are thus going to have to be extra vigilant when checking work references and so on, to verify that their prospective tenants really are working and not about to be dependent on welfare for your rent.

I'd request bank statements to be honest. 3 months bank statements with salaries and for self employed tenants like taxi drivers, doctors etc. where a work reference won't be worth anything/available bank statements are even more important to show that the business is paying a living wage and can sustain the rent.

Gatling

If one is driving as taxi and the other running a business they won't be entitled to rent allowence ,
Sounds like the landlord going to be part of a welfare scam ,
Wouldn't let them stay under any circumstances,and I'd be having a serious chat with the agent

Zulu

They lied. The rental contract isn't valid. Get them out as fast as you can. Madness entertaining this kind of fraud and deceit.

You really think they are going to treat you any better than the social welfare system?

the_syco

Zulu wrote: »

They lied. The rental contract isn't valid. Get them out as fast as you can. Madness entertaining this kind of fraud and deceit.

You really think they are going to treat you any better than the social welfare system?

Pretty much this. They arrived into the country with the intention of not paying rent, and shall say anything to pay as little as possible. Getting them out may not be easy.

ZENER wrote: »

The agent calls the LL to inform them that the "paperwork" is in fact the forms required to be signed by a landlord for the tenant to qualify or receive rent allowance.

If your contract with the letting agent states no RA, and he gave you RA forms to fill out, I'd wonder if he voided any contract he had with you? But maybe use them to get the tenant out; it may work out cheaper in the long run if the LA does.

Eldarion

Wow I feel for you OP, that's a rough situation. I wouldn't sign anything at all myself, but then next month will come around and no rent will be paid. You'll start the arrears notification process and eviction process and hope to god you'll get access to your property back sometime before the end of the year.

But landlords hold all the cards and are the bad guys right?

NSAman

Forgive me here. These chancers want you to commit fraud?

Beggars belief that people would do this! not a nice situation to be in, one thing I would never do is sign anything for them.

Hope the rental situation works out, but if they are doing this now, better off without them as tenants.

mrsbyrne

Just don't sign the forms.your not under any obligation at all. It. Might be fine. They might be able to afford the rent.
But I doubt it.
As soon as they are in arrears with the rent you must engage with PRTB about evicting them. You will have to stay on top of this as I doubt this family can't afford to rent without the supplement.
Don't get into a situation where months are going by with no rent coming in as you will never get that money back.

handlemaster

I'd say they will end up signing the forms for you !!

Grandpa Hassan

handlemaster wrote: »

I'd say they will end up signing the forms for you !!

That is a good point. If they have come this far, they are not going to let the lack of a signature derail their plan

The_Conductor

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

That is a good point. If they have come this far, they are not going to let the lack of a signature derail their plan

Don't they need the landlord's PPSN for the forms?

vitani

ZENER wrote: »

On their references one claimed to be a PSV driver - Taxi, saw the taxi so happy with that. The other claimed to have a business in the local town, this turned out to be untrue, this person only recently received citizenship and is in receipt of social welfare. The taxi driver does not have citizenship nor is he entitled to rent allowance due to having a job and an income.

This couple want the form signed so they can both claim rent allowance.

Are you 100% sure it's fraud? Rent allowance can be claimed if you work less than 30 hours per week so having a job wouldn't disqualify him from applying.

Only recently receiving citizenship just means that the other person is now an Irish citizen. They could have been here for many years before that with the right to work. So it's possible that the reference about the business in the local town was accurate, but that the business no longer operates.

Edit: From Citizen Information
"If you wish to become an Irish citizen through naturalisation, you must:
Have had a period of 365 days* (1 year) continuous reckonable residence in the State immediately before the date of your application for naturalisation and, during the 8 years preceding that, have had a total reckonable residence in the State amounting to 1,460 days* (4 years). Altogether you must have 5 years (5 x 365 days*) reckonable residence out of the last 9 years"

padd b1975

The_Conductor wrote: »

Don't they need the landlord's PPSN for the forms?

Not if they say the landlord is not resident in Ireland, I think...

OP, I would suggest a heads up phone call the Dept. of Social Welfare.

They take this sort of fraud very seriously indeed.

Ray Palmer

Why are you paying the agent? They failed to do as you asked. I would get on to the agent and tell them to sort it out.

They failed to check references correctly and failed to apply your rule of not accepting RA.

They are paid specifically to do these things. I don't see what they have done for their money

ZENER

I really appreciate the replies folks ! Wasn't expecting this level of response so soon. I was expecting some backlash for not accepting Rent Allowance tenants. We did in the past but we were stung very badly by 3 different tenants and lost out on thousands in rents and costs to refurbish the property back to a habitable state.

I can't really hold the Letting Agent responsible for this as he did check references and everything came back kosher ! In truth references don't hold much water as the referee could be an associate or friend of the tenant or the previous landlord may have been so desperate to get rid of a tenant they will resort to anything to get their property back, we have experience of such tactics.

A also appreciate that with fewer landlords accepting Rent Allowance the opportunities for a lot of families to rent are become fewer and more difficult to come by. So I don't blame this family trying what they did, yes it was very deceitful and might potentially cause many problems in the future but desperation can lead people to do many things.

It's too early yet to judge these people as fraudsters - even though one of them has a job he may still be eligible for Rent Allowance if he earns under a certain amount according to the Letting Agent.

The main problem we have now is that we made it very clear at all stages that we would not accept Rent Allowance clients, we now have someone who is in our property under false pretences. Are we entitled to hold back the deposit if these people decide to move on. They have obviously broken any contract they had with us through their fault and not ours. We'll be in touch with the PTRB to check but our experience with them is that they do nothing for Landlords despite being paid by them.

Hopefully the scenarios given in some of the replies here will never happen, they have in the past hence we no longer entertain Rent Allowance. IT seems snow, given this situation, our decision was justified.

Thanks again to all who have replied.

Ken

BPatsy

Wow cant believe the cheek of it, some people really dont help themselves when it comes to their reputation in the eyes of their welcomers, they certainly do live up to it aye ill give them that.

I cant believe how these days there's powers that be to protect the rights of people trying to fiddle the system

Where im from you wouldn't get notice you would have your belongings thrown out in the garden on the same day

God forbid a landlord should ask for the rent on time or if at all, i mean what right has he? im sure the bank wont mind if he dont pay the mortgage on time every month either

Seriously all you hear is more and more these day of these self entitled bums talking about "whats theirs, what they deserve and what right they have"

Sorry i know this dont help the OP but i thought id throw my 2 pence in for what its worth.. probably not much these days.

Tasden

The only thing they have done wrong is lie to you about their intentions re rent supplement which was a lie by omission really. Not condoning it btw. But all the talk of "fraud" and "fiddling the system", there is nothing to suggest anything of the sort.

They are well within their rights to claim rent supplement even if they do have an income from employment or self employment- its means tested and awarded on a sliding scale. He may or may not have a business, he may have had one and had to close it while it was not financially viable to keep it running. You don't know.

As for the citizenship issue- people really hopped on that one. Citizenship is optional, a person can live here and have permission to remain here and work for years before they decide to become a citizen, if they wish to apply. They are required to be resident here for a certain period based on a number of factors before they can actually apply. If one of them has citizenship then that person has proven to be resident here for at least that required period of time. That person is now Irish btw. And it has nothing at all to do with their eligibility for rent supplement. Their stamp prior to citizenship is what is relevant to SW entitlements. Now that they're Irish they are as entitled as your or I as long as they fullfil the other criteria.

So all the talk about them coming here to defraud the system is ridiculous.

Sorry op I know that doesn't help you with the position you're in. Ring threshold for advice on tenant/landlord rights.

foggy_lad

Op AFAIK any lease is now void as the tenants lied to get it and you can issue them with 30 days notice to quit immediately without reason but you have a valid reason!

Also how is the male working as a taxi driver if he just recently arrived in the country and is not a resident? Is he on a student visa or claiming asylum or a citizen of another EU state?

Tasden

foggy_lad wrote: »

Op AFAIK any lease is now void as the tenants lied to get it and you can issue them with 30 days notice to quit immediately without reason but you have a valid reason!

Also how is the male working as a taxi driver if he just recently arrived in the country and is not a resident? Is he on a student visa or claiming asylum or a citizen of another EU state?

Where did it say the person just arrived in the country? One of them is now an Irish citizen and so the other is prob on stamp 4

ZENER

foggy_lad wrote: »

Op AFAIK any lease is now void as the tenants lied to get it and you can issue them with 30 days notice to quit immediately without reason but you have a valid reason!

If they pay the rent on time then we don't have an issue with them at all, annoyed that they weren't honest about their intentions but they have been given the choice to leave or continue as agreed, however we won't be signing the Rent Allowance forms.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Also how is the male working as a taxi driver if he just recently arrived in the country and is not a resident? Is he on a student visa or claiming asylum or a citizen of another EU state?

By recently arrived we understand they mean within the last few years, they were renting another property for the last 18 months locally, not sure if they were on Rent allowance for that one, the landlord gave them a good reference but made no mention of any supplements.

I doubt they are on student visas, they are both in their 40's, then again !?

Ken

Mrs OBumble

A question: say I'm a tenant, am working have just moved into a property where the LL has said "no RA". But then lose my job within a few weeks.

Do I have to move, just because the LL said "no RA"?

What if I've been there for a few years, and the LL is totally happy with me? I suspect we would think that morally, anyway, the LL should accept RA from me. (Assuming that the rent is below the threshold, of course).

Where is the cut-off in your mind?



(Granted, my own reaction is that these particular tenants are liars, and trouble .... but there's a general question here, too.)

ZENER

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

A question:

What if I've been there for a few years, and the LL is totally happy with me? I suspect we would think that morally, anyway, the LL should accept RA from me. (Assuming that the rent is below the threshold, of course).

Where is the cut-off in your mind?

In this case we would be more than happy to work with you, we are your current reference so to speak. Assuming there were no previous problems then your character speaks for itself and I can see no reason - morally or otherwise - to ask you to leave. Of course if you were to ask for a reduction in the rent then that's a different situation, I can't see many landlords entertaining this scenario.

Ken

murphaph

^^^^Exactly. If an existing tenant that you know to be reliable loses their job then you'll surely have no problem signing any RS forms they present but on the strict understanding that the agreement remains as it was and if the RS limits are reduced below the rent due at any time, then the tenant will have to seek alternative accommodation as no forms will be filled in/signed if the figures aren't correct (ie, no topups).

King of Pork

ZENER wrote: »

So a property is advertised to let. The letting Agent is instructed to inform all interested parties that HSE Rent Allowance clients will not be accepted. An interested party accepts these terms, pays a deposit and a month in advance and moves in to the property.

14 days later the tenant calls asking to meet so that some "paperwork" can be sorted, they are told to talk to the agent. The agent calls the LL to inform them that the "paperwork" is in fact the forms required to be signed by a landlord for the tenant to qualify or receive rent allowance. The tenants are recent arrivals to Ireland with one just recently given citizenship - may be relevant but not sure yet.

On their references one claimed to be a PSV driver - Taxi, saw the taxi so happy with that. The other claimed to have a business in the local town, this turned out to be untrue, this person only recently received citizenship and is in receipt of social welfare. The taxi driver does not have citizenship nor is he entitled to rent allowance due to having a job and an income.

This couple want the form signed so they can both claim rent allowance.

Aside from the intended fraud attempt it was made clear at all stages that Rent Allowance would not be entertained or accepted. They have been informed that they can remain in the property so long as the rent is paid on the agreed date every month or they can move out. Their decision is pending.

What right's does the landlord have now ? The agent is due the first months rent as payment so all the LL is left with is the deposit but no rent as of yet unless the tenant accepts the conditions. The tenants have been given the obligatory 14 days to vacate if they do not accept these conditions so the Landlord is out 1 months rent and has a deposit that by right should be forfeited by the tenant yes ?

Any comments very much appreciated.

Ken

Looks like fraud. Get in touch with the local Gardai for advice

the_syco

ZENER wrote: »

Are we entitled to hold back the deposit if these people decide to move on.

Yes, but you may get rid of them quicker if they get their deposit back.

ZENER wrote: »

the landlord gave them a good reference but made no mention of any supplements.

Ring the landlords office number that you'll get by Google'ing them, and ask. The number you have... may not be the actual landlords number. From the web that's spun, I'd be thinking you spoke to their mate.

Del2005

"ZENER wrote: »

the landlord gave them a good reference but made no mention of any supplements.

I know a lot of companies have stopped giving references when employees leave after a case in the US where a company successfully sued another after they hired a useless person based on references. If a LL finds out that the previous LL's reference was false, ie the tenant destroyed the property and didn't pay rent but gets a glowing reference, do they have any comeback?

murphaph

King of Pork wrote: »

Looks like fraud. Get in touch with the local Gardai for advice

lol. :pac:

Good luck with that. The local Guards don't give 2 sh!tes about stuff like this.

conorhal

What kind of information is captured on the RA forms? I'm wondering about how complicit in fraud a simple signature can make you.

Are the conditions under which eligibility has been granted outlined for example?

I ask because a mate has been renting to a couple with a small child in reciept of rent allowance, but they've openly admitted that the RA recieved is dependent on the womans claim to be a single mother. The partner (not husband or father of the child) claims JSB and studies, while working part time off the books, but I'm pretty sure that he's registered as such at his parents address.

I suspect a lot of fraud like this could be cut out if the landlord had to make a specific declaration of who is resident on the property.
He wasn't pushed to do anything about it because they've been good tenants and always paid the rent on time, but it just seems wrong to me.

murphaph

conorhal wrote: »

I suspect a lot of fraud like this could be cut out if the landlord had to make a specific declaration of who is resident on the property.

The landlord doesn't live in the cupboard watching his tenant's every move. It would be ridiculous to expect a LL to be able to make a declaration like that. He can declare that x & y have signed a lease and that's about it. The LL cannot and should not be the state's policeman.

Now, if Ireland would get over its fear of compulsory registration of abode + national ID cards with current address printed on them (like most every Continental country) then we could get places with this sort of fraud, not eliminate it, but make life much harder for fraudsters.