Does it matter to the EU if the UK goes UKIP?

Bellatori

I have a problem (which is probably asking for some ironic come backs for a start!). I sit here in Newcastle (its foggy today which is really rather unpleasant) and I have received an electoral communication from UKIP. As a party they are xenophobic and probably a good splash of underlying racism.
They had an advertising campaign basically claiming British jobs were being 'stolen' by foreigners which turned out to be very ironic as the man on the front of the campaign turns out to be an Irish actor. You have to laugh!

Back to my problem. On the political compass thread I come out somewhere on the soft left moderately libertarian bottom left quadrant so I won't be voting conservative in a fit as the saying goes. I look at Milliband and think that it would be better if we had someone who had held a proper job once upon a time. The Lib-Dems whom I used to vote for have sold out for a taste of power and that leaves me feeling disenfranchised.

According to the news yesterday (BBC Radio 4) UKIP are making enormous strides and are leading so I really need to vote. My father made it clear to me as I have to my children that we have a moral obligation to vote.

The other parties apart from those four are
BNP (I'd rather vote for Ghengis Khan and Attila the Hun)
English Democrats (what does that mean?!)
An Independence form Europe (for those who don't understand what UKIP stands for I guess!)
Green Party (somehow I have a picture of Druids and maypoles!)

No Monster Raving Looney party since the death of Screaming Lord Such to waste as a protest vote.

Bottom line is I really would like a box that says none of the above - anyone remember the film Brewsters Millions (I think).

What a mess...

ArmaniJeanss

If you don't want the UKIP candidate elected then just vote for whichever of Labour, LibDem or even Conservative has the best chance of beating them?
Basic tactical voting.

Out of interest how does the voting work in England for these Euro elections in multi seat constituencies anyway - do you get as many votes as there are seats, or is it just vote for one candidate and the X number of seats are given to the X candidates with the most votes?

Bellatori

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

...Out of interest how does the voting work in England for these Euro elections in multi seat constituencies anyway - do you get as many votes as there are seats, or is it just vote for one candidate and the X number of seats are given to the X candidates with the most votes?

I must hang my head in shame and confess that I do not know. I think there are three seats and I get three votes. Now you have raised the issue I think I ought to find out... how embarrassing!!

comongethappy

You won't vote lib-dem because they are in government.
You might vote Tory, who are in government.
- ?

As to your question.
UKIP have 13 if the UKs 73 MEPs.
They are part of the far-right grouping in the parliament of around 30-ish members (out of 700+).

When they have speaking time they just complain, I'm not sure they have ever done anything constructive there.

Does it matter to the UK?

Probably not much.
They make noise but have little effect on legislation.

The UK uses PR for euro-elections.

Bellatori

comongethappy wrote: »

You won't vote lib-dem because they are in government.
You might vote Tory, who are in government.
- ?

No. I won't vote Lib-Dem because they sold out for a period in government and I certainly would not vote Tory under any circumstances. Elitist and look after their mates in business.

The lib-dems were voted fo amongst other things because they would abolish tuition fees. What did they do after 5 minutes in power? Vote to triple tuition fees. Who would trust such a party?

If Labour were led by John Smith I could bring myself to vote for them even though I have grave reservations about their true left wing credentials but Miliband...? What does he know about anything? He has never been anywhere or done anything except work in Politics as a hack.

I find it interesting that we have PR for Europe (Regional list?) but not for Parliament.

Maybe I will vote for the Green Party. They do have one MP though I feel her chances of surviving the next election are small. At least their hearts are in the right place.

Still 'None of the above' would do it for me.

comongethappy

Thing is..... None of those reasons have anything to do with the European Parliament.

You might aswell base your vote on the state of the potholes of Newcastle-upon-tyne.

In terms of what the parliaments role entails, personally, I would vote Green where I a UK voter.

Bellatori

comongethappy wrote: »

Thing is..... None of those reasons have anything to do with the European Parliament.

Well, yes and no... (who says I am not a man of decision!)

We vote for parties and not individuals and I vote for those I think I can trust. That used to be the Lib Dems. They, however, have abandoned everything that they purported to believe in and, as for Labour, they saw how it went in the 80s and sold out on their ideals for 13 years of Tony Blair.

As I said earlier, Miliband, Clegg, Cameron... all are political hacks who have never had a proper job. How can they expect to speak for most of the UK population. It is almost feudal!

comongethappy wrote: »

You might aswell base your vote on the state of the potholes of Newcastle-upon-tyne.

Have you seen the state of the potholes here? Is there an anarchist bomber standing in the election?![/QUOTE]

comongethappy wrote: »

In terms of what the parliaments role entails, personally, I would vote Green where I a UK voter.

You could have something there. I'll let people know how I voted when the election has gone. My guess is that my wife, who also feels deeply let down by the Lib Dems may well go the same way.

To repeat... what an effing mess.

OS119

if you don't want to vote for anyone who'se never had a real job, then don't hold your breath. you can either hold your nose and get on with it, or you can sit back, be pure, and watch other people make decisions about you, for you.

one of those is the action of an idiot - if you're not an idiot, you'll know which one it is.

if none of the candidates is 'left' enough for you, then baring left independants, the Green is probably as close as you're going to get. the English Democrats are an odd bunch - read their manifesto online, they have some leftish traits, and some not leftish traits. what they are not is mainstream...

if the LibDem or Labour parties are kind of broadly where you're at, but you have issues with each, i suggest you hold your nose and vote for the party that is closest to you - if you object to the LD's because they compromise, then you aren't going to enjoy politics much. personally, if you actually read their 2010 manifesto or listen to what they were saying pre-election, i'd be amazed that you'd be disappointed/let down/shocked by their actions in government - they stopped being the mung-bean-eating, bearded-sandal-wearing, 'save the Venezeulan Arse Wasp' party many years ago, its just that lots of people who voted for them as a protest couldn't be bothered to notice...

almost all the anti-EU, pro-referendum parties/candidates are UKIP splinter parties who only exist because of personal ego's, bruised feelings and the most minor policy differences. NO2EU however is a left wing, union based party that has its own history of splits, walk-outs, and abject failure.

you pays your money, you takes your choice.

Bellatori

OS119 wrote: »

....

Well that's pretty direct and in my face then!! Fair enough!!

What I can guarantee is that I will vote!

old hippy

That Irish actor for UKIP reminds me of when the BNP posted their filth through our door some years ago. A young woman on the leaflet saying that too many immigrants were being let in and the usual xenephopic crap. And guess what? She was Irish...

Too young to remember how Irish folk were treated here in the 70s and 80s, probably.

PopePalpatine

Personally, I'd vote based on a candidate's allegiances in the European Parliament, e.g. a Fianna Fáil candidate (not that I'd vote for them) is part of the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe, and their bloc's (if they have one) policies. I wouldn't dream of voting for Fine Gael in the EU elections, as their bloc supported ACTA.

Bellatori

I did go and vote yesterday just as the polls opened as I had to spend most of yesterday over in Whitehaven.

Apparently the EU vote is a regional list. I got a sheet with a list of political parties and for each there were three names. You ticked the party of your choice. I will find out on Sunday whether my choice had value...

I voted Green. Not because I support them - we disagree on a whole host of issues BUT at least they come across as honest. the rest I would not give house room to. I keep repeating myself because I am so angry with the Lib Dems who sold out for a taste of power. Their manifesto said abolish student fees and as soon as they got in they voted to treble them. Selfishly as I am going back to Universioty in September I am well pissed off with them !! As for the rest, I wouldn't give them house room. So I had no one to vote for but lots to vote against.

Any one tried this buzzfeed?

I came up Lib Dem but that is not going to help Nick Clegg... My wife came up conservative... Aaaargh. She was shocked. She would never vote conservative in a fit! (and didn't - I think she spoiled her ballot paper if the amount of crayoning that went on was anything to go by!)

A Dub in Glasgo

The UK isn't going UKIP, England is

Frank Lee Midere

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The UK isn't going UKIP, England is

Parts of it.

It makes no sense to me to dislike a party, like the lib dems, who have to make compromises while in office. As part of a coalition. How else can coalitions work?

A Dub in Glasgo

Under the FPTP system, the Lib Dems have zero chance of getting in themselves therefore they need to tell their voters that they will ditch their core polices just to get into power. The main gripe people have with the Lib Dems is their refusal to say this

Bellatori

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Parts of it.

It makes no sense to me to dislike a party, like the lib dems, who have to make compromises while in office. As part of a coalition. How else can coalitions work?

Selling your soul and core values simply for 15 minutes of fame (OK 5 years in Government) is not likely to endear most voters. By the looks of the local elections they have lost about 50% of their vote since the last election.

Scofflaw

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Parts of it.

It makes no sense to me to dislike a party, like the lib dems, who have to make compromises while in office. As part of a coalition. How else can coalitions work?

They obviously can't work any other way, but nevertheless, every time there's a coalition government, the smaller party gets a terrific electoral kicking for 'selling out'.

Currently Labour here and the Lib Dems there, previously the Greens here, the PDs, Labour again...

You'd think they'd learn - but then, those parties have no other chance of being in government.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Reekwind

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

It makes no sense to me to dislike a party, like the lib dems, who have to make compromises while in office. As part of a coalition. How else can coalitions work?

These coalitions are inherently unequal partnerships. In this case, the strong sense is that the Lib Dems have compromised on enough issues that their presence is merely masking a Tory government. So why would you vote for them again? If you actually want Tory government then just vote Tory, if you don't then vote Labour.

VeryOwl

Bellatori wrote: »

I voted Green. Not because I support them - we disagree on a whole host of issues BUT at least they come across as honest. the rest I would not give house room to. I keep repeating myself because I am so angry with the Lib Dems who sold out for a taste of power. Their manifesto said abolish student fees and as soon as they got in they voted to treble them. Selfishly as I am going back to Universioty in September I am well pissed off with them !! As for the rest, I wouldn't give them house room. So I had no one to vote for but lots to vote against.

I also voted 'Green', despite not particularly being convinced by a lot of their policies, I actually think the green party back in Ireland is more pragmatic. A Lib Dem vote would've been my second choice. I don't particularly buy the 'sold out' line here, I'm not really sure what people thought were going to happen given the conservatives have many times the number of MPs.

Bellatori

Bellatori wrote: »

I sit here in Newcastle (its foggy today which is really rather unpleasant)

So what you're saying is there's Fog on the Tyne?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1urq4Vb0XM

A Dub in Glasgo

VeryOwl wrote: »

. I don't particularly buy the 'sold out' line here, I'm not really sure what people thought were going to happen given the conservatives have many times the number of MPs.

I expected them to stick for better concessions on their core policies or not enter coalition. I think most previous LD voters will be wise to them in the next GE

Bellatori

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The UK isn't going UKIP, England is

You must have missed the Scotland result then

Bellatori

VeryOwl wrote: »

I also voted 'Green', despite not particularly being convinced by a lot of their policies, I actually think the green party back in Ireland is more pragmatic. A Lib Dem vote would've been my second choice. I don't particularly buy the 'sold out' line here, I'm not really sure what people thought were going to happen given the conservatives have many times the number of MPs.

Well I think Lord Oakeshott said it all for me...

He suggested that under Mr Clegg's leadership the Lib Dems had become a "split-the-difference centre party, with no roots, no principles and no values" rather than a "radical, progressive party".
He said the message behind Mr Clegg's "dire approval ratings year after year in all national polls, and Thursday's appalling council and European election results, is crystal-clear.

A Dub in Glasgo

Bellatori wrote: »

You must have missed the Scotland result then

Nope, seen the Scotland result. UKIP got 10.4% of the vote in Scotland compared to 30.5% in England

Bellatori

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Nope, seen the Scotland result. UKIP got 10.4% of the vote in Scotland compared to 30.5% in England

They (UKIP) also got an Euro MP in Scotland which Alex proclaimed they would not because it was an English problem... The Scots even managed to vote in a conservative!

Mind you I am sure that Alex will proclaim getting 2 MEPs as a triumph but then he is a politician so any old rubbish will do. Cameron obviously feels that coming third was a success and the LibDems are claiming a moral victory for supporting Europe... how many MEPs have they got?!

The next election promises to be very interesting.

nesf

Scofflaw wrote: »

They obviously can't work any other way, but nevertheless, every time there's a coalition government, the smaller party gets a terrific electoral kicking for 'selling out'.

Currently Labour here and the Lib Dems there, previously the Greens here, the PDs, Labour again...

You'd think they'd learn - but then, those parties have no other chance of being in government.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I'm pretty sure we'd also punish them if they refused to form a Government with one of the big boys and we were forced back to the polls over and over again.

A Dub in Glasgo

Bellatori wrote: »

They (UKIP) also got an Euro MP in Scotland which Alex proclaimed they would not because it was an English problem... The Scots even managed to vote in a conservative!

Yes, with 6 seats available through PR (a party list system), the Tories and to a lesser extent UKIP were always likely to get a seat.

---

As an aside, Scotland has a higher population to Ireland (RoI) population and elects 6 MEP's versus 11 for Ireland

Bellatori

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

...As an aside, Scotland has a higher population to Ireland (RoI) population and elects 6 MEP's versus 11 for Ireland

Well that is 6 more than you will have if you vote for independence. Spain won't let you in even if dog in the manger Cameron can be persuaded otherwise. The Basques and the Catalans must be praying for an independence vote...

A Dub in Glasgo

You think so?

More likely to be 6 more than we have if we do not vote for independence as UKIP will force the Tories to have a referendum and the UK will come out of Europe irrespective of what the majority in Scotland thinks.

Scofflaw

nesf wrote: »

I'm pretty sure we'd also punish them if they refused to form a Government with one of the big boys and we were forced back to the polls over and over again.

Also, the party faithful of the bigger parties punish them if they walk out on an unpopular sitting government, while the opposition faithful and their own followers punish them if they stay in.

It would be interesting to see a Tory/UKIP coalition. Or watch one, perhaps. I doubt Cameron could be persuaded of the fact, but given Farage's greater personal charisma and the fact that he appears to be a karma Houdini, I wouldn't bet on the usual small party effect if that was a Farage/Cameron coalition.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Bellatori

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You think so?

More likely to be 6 more than we have if we do not vote for independence as UKIP will force the Tories to have a referendum and the UK will come out of Europe irrespective of what the majority in Scotland thinks.

Indeed you could be right.

ArmaniJeanss

Scofflaw wrote: »

Also, the party faithful of the bigger parties punish them if they walk out on an unpopular sitting government, while the opposition faithful and their own followers punish them if they stay in.

It would be interesting to see a Tory/UKIP coalition. Or watch one, perhaps. I doubt Cameron could be persuaded of the fact, but given Farage's greater personal charisma and the fact that he appears to be a karma Houdini, I wouldn't bet on the usual small party effect if that was a Farage/Cameron coalition.

cordially,
Scofflaw

The bookies consider either zero or one seat the favourite for amount of UKIP seats in the next GE, so a coalition is unlikely.

Also says quite a lot about the curiousities and mathematical biases of the UK FPTP system.

Bellatori

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

The bookies consider either zero or one seat the favourite for amount of UKIP seats in the next GE, so a coalition is unlikely.

Also says quite a lot about the curiousities and mathematical biases of the UK FPTP system.

With the EU elections you vote for a party because your support has meaning. Each vote counts towards gaining an MEP. In FPTP elections it becomes worthwhile tactical voting. It is why the LibDems get squeezed. (In the case of the next election perhaps annihilated is better!). I can see Tories voting UKIP in Labout LibDem marginals and therefore though the current polls suggest only one seat they may well get more.