Death, Kids and religion.

Ghost Buster

My kids Granny died of cancer when he was 4. Though very upset he accepted what we explained to him in a sensitive, edited but typically atheistic manner that his granny had had a long and happy life, was not suffering and that we would always have our memories of her etc etc. He had a look at the body in repose, attended the cremation (Granny was atheist to:)) and got over it all in that wonderful way kids can.
He is now 8 and attends a welcoming and open catholic school and we are quite relaxed about it. He's obviously not taking part in any sacriments but we didnt bother having him removed from class during RI classes etc.
And until now I was unconvinced about the Dawkins-ism about childhood indoctrination being child abuse...until...
Tonight i had to tell him that his Grandad is almost certainly going to die tonight, also of cancer and he says that he is afraid for Grandad because what if heaven and hell is real and Grandad didnt believe in God or go to mass just like Granny.
Though not said with any major conviction this really upset me. We have since talked and now all seems well but obviously even the 'Dogma lite' version of catholicism that he is only half taking in in school which is then being diluted to homeopathy trace levels at home is sinking in.
Dawkins may well be onto something.

lazygal

I think the new Alive O touchy feely programme is in many ways even more insidious than the old catechism stuff. It's seen as benign and so nice and not about all that fire and brimstone old style Catholic teachings. But that's what makes me be on guard about it-I know of parents who were sucked into thinking it was no harm and next thing little Ronan is talking about God making the flowers. There's a very good reason churches want schools teaching indoctrination at a very young age and why the Catholic archdiocese has rebranded it's particular set of fairytales.

Turtwig

Very sorry for your predicament Ghost Buster.

smacl

Also sorry for your troubles, and can't offer much in the way of advice. When faced with something similar a couple of years back I just went with simple answers that were based on my own honest beliefs. If it is of any consolation, kids seem to bounce back from these things way quicker than adults. While our kids went to an educate together school, they still have one quite religious granny and pick up bits and bobs from other religious friends. When they ask questions relating to religion, I tell them that different people believe different things, they can believe what they want, but personally I don't believe any of it is true. Seems to work well enough.

nagirrac

It's impossible to shield kids from religion, although you can certainly provide balance to what they are hearing elsewhere. While I disagree with any specific religious doctrine being taught in schools, they will pick it up anyway from other kids, other kids parents, etc. I think at that age its best just to tell them that different people believe different things as smacl said, and that as he gets older and learns more he can decide for himself what to believe. The only problem with that is kids at that age like specific answers, and religion provides very specific answers. If religion were taught as an academic subject incorporating all religions and none, instead of teaching a specific doctrine, kids would naturally gravitate to their own beliefs quicker, although most do it in time anyway regardless of indoctrination at school or in the home for that matter.

He will have much tougher questions when he is a little older and starts to connect other people dying with the reality that he himself will die someday. Depending on the kid that can be a very challenging time and imo the best approach is to be very cautious, like telling him there is much that humans do not understand and try and avoid firm and especially dogmatic answers. They will form their own opinions and beliefs in time. Be prepared for a life of surprises, as if there's one thing kids do well, it's surprise you. Both my kids were raised agnostic, but encountered a fair bit of religion growing up, one is now a don't care for religion agnostic and the other a Catholic. Not much you can do about it once they start to form their own opinions, and imo best not to push your own opinions too hard, as one of the surprises may be how hard they push back and resent your telling them what to believe. Not saying you are doing that OP or likely to do that, just something to be aware of.

pauldla

Sorry for your troubles, Ghost Buster.

I was watching my two at supper last night, happily prattling away over their meal. Not a religious thought has ever entered their heads, and they seem like very happy, very well-adjusted kids (be it I who say it). Once they turn 18 they can believe anything they like; until then, I'm glad they're not going to worry about deceased relatives going to heaven or hell. Life is tough enough when you're a kid.

Obliq

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Tonight i had to tell him that his Grandad is almost certainly going to die tonight, also of cancer and he says that he is afraid for Grandad because what if heaven and hell is real and Grandad didnt believe in God or go to mass just like Granny.
Though not said with any major conviction this really upset me.

I'm really sorry to hear about this Ghost Buster. You're all obviously having a really sad time of it right now, and your son's distress about this due to what I can only class as bullying from religion is something that he will really need strong reassurance about from you. I'd be a little concerned about how his teachers will back your feelings on this up when it comes to sympathising with him about his loss (as and when it happens). Perhaps (and I know it's at a very difficult time for you) you might mention that they should avoid all religious platitudes around him?

I remember having to talk to my eldest about heaven and hell at about the same age, when he was also worried that we might be wrong, and god might exist after all.....I explained to him that being worried about that is the very thing that the church uses to bully people into believing in something that there is no evidence for. That threatening people with something they can't see, but that the church claims to know, creates exactly the kind of fear he was experiencing and that without people being threatened with punishment after they're dead, nobody would believe in any god, and that would mean no money for the church which is basically all about collecting money and having power over people.

Hotblack Desiato

There's a child of 'born again' parents in my daughter's class; he's been going around asking which kids aren't baptised and saying nasty things to them.
They're 6 years old FFS :mad:

I think it's a completely wrong and twisted to get a 6 year old bothered enough about religion to be able to even conceive of doing such a thing - whether it's the school, or as in this case the parents doing it.

nozzferrahhtoo

nagirrac wrote: »

I think at that age its best just to tell them that different people believe different things as smacl said, and that as he gets older and learns more he can decide for himself what to believe.

I tend to go a little further than that in that I usually discuss the concept of imagination with children. They understand it well. I point out to them how some things you are imagining can seem very real. They understand this too as they know "in the heat of play" their imagined world is every bit as real to them as reality itself. They can be THAT immersed in it.

It is like the opening scenes in the Toy Story Films where the characters are engaged in a massive adventure. Moments later we are switched to the bedroom of a small child and realize it was the mental imagination sequence of a child with toys. It can be THAT real to kids.

So then at the end of the conversation when I point out that things like Heaven and Hell and Gods are apparently just what happens when grown ups, and some kids, forget they are imagining and forget to stop..... this really clicks with them. It fits in exactly with their world view and experience and they get exactly what I am telling them.

Cabaal

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

It is like the opening scenes in the Toy Story Films where the characters are engaged in a massive adventure. Moments later we are switched to the bedroom of a small child and realize it was the mental imagination sequence of a child with toys. It can be THAT real to kids.

So then at the end of the conversation when I point out that things like Heaven and Hell and Gods are apparently just what happens when grown ups, and some kids, forget they are imagining and forget to stop..... this really clicks with them. It fits in exactly with their world view and experience and they get exactly what I am telling them.

Thats a really nice simple way of explaining it to a kid, I guess to add to that would be "don't slag people about their make believe friend".

The aim of this would be so he/she doesn't go into school saying stuff like "you believe in a imaginary friend"