District Heating System - any landlords installed this heating system

Speedsie

Hi,

Has any ll on boards installed a district heating system in a multiple let scenario for heating and hit water. Do tenants in Ireland understand the concept? Do they feel that getting a heating bill from the ll rather than bord gais etc.

Speeds

murphaph

I would advise against. Even here in Germany where district heating is common there are regular disputes about who should pay more. I'm glad I have my own gas meter and boiler. It is a headache a landlord can do without, even for the savings in plant.

Victor

They are exceptionally rare in Ireland.

Many 'pre-63' buildings that were converted to flats have central heating for the whole building, but standards, especially of insulation are generally very poor. Often the tenants are unable to control the system, which strictly speaking is in breach of regulations.

Later systems, in purpose-built apartment buildings from the 1930s-1970s were often removed after the oil crises of the 1970s.

Ballymun used to have such a system that served thousands of people from a central plant, but I don't know if it still does. More common these days is a combined heat and power system - examples would be the west end of Temple Bar, where the electrical generators in the Civic Office supply waste heat on a commercial basis to, I think, 7 hotels and a few hundred apartments. There is a similar system in Spencer Dock.

Problems arise in both usage and billing. Some residents in Spencer Dock resent that they have no control over the billing - billing is based on a share of total system cost across all users, not usage. The problem then is that there is no incentive to economise or even use energy sensibly. The flip side, if the system is billed by usage is that some users will deliberately under-use their heating system - relying on heat loss from their neighbours.

I'm not sure how the BER system treats such arrangements.

ted1

i know of a few places that have them in ireland. Heuston south quater is an example. They have heat meters on them so they can bill on actual usage. When they were first sold only about five out of over two hundred were occupied as the boilers were designed for more they owner lost a fortune.

Speedsie

I agree that properly metered systems need to be used, rather than a 'guestimate' by the ll.

I've always felt that it sounds like a good system on paper, but I've never come across such a system in Ireland.

I also like the US & Australian system of having a communal laundry one - I only know of one such on Waterloo road in a new build.

Speeds

bobofrut

Hi all,
How to check if the building is in the District Heating System and how it will be billed, is there any standing charge?
Regards.

murphaph

Speedsie wrote: »

I agree that properly metered systems need to be used, rather than a 'guestimate' by the llSpeeds

Yeah this is the real problem with communal/district heating: you can easily meter hot water but metering how much energy a particular unit has removed from the sealed heating system is very difficult to so with accuracy. The German "stick on the rad" meters theoretically show this but they don't really because other nearby heat sources can affect them.

We all know heat rises, so you can "steal" energy from the guy below and in turn he can "steal" the energy in the heating system supply pipes that run through his flat on the way up to yours! It's a bloody nightmare IMO. If I have a gas boiler I know that I drew x m³ of gas in my billing period and that's how much I actually needed to keep my flat comfortable and provide my hot water. I know when buying that a ground floor flat will cost more to heat as I won't have any energy to steal from the guy below (another issue in blocks with a large boiler in the basement is that the flat directly above will get huge amounts of free heat from the boiler below) and so I will reckon with that when buying the property.

There is too much uncertainty about metering "heat" at the rad with those stick on things...I'm amazed the Germans can live with such uncertainty...or perhaps most of them think those things are really accurate and calibrated "somehow" to give accurate measurements for their flat and its conditions.

ted1

murphaph wrote: »

Yeah this is the real problem with communal/district heating: you can easily meter hot water but metering how much energy a particular unit has removed from the sealed heating system is very difficult to so with accuracy. The German "stick on the rad" meters theoretically show this but they don't really because other nearby heat sources can affect them.

We all know heat rises, so you can "steal" energy from the guy below and in turn he can "steal" the energy in the heating system supply pipes that run through his flat on the way up to yours! It's a bloody nightmare IMO. If I have a gas boiler I know that I drew x m³ of gas in my billing period and that's how much I actually needed to keep my flat comfortable and provide my hot water. I know when buying that a ground floor flat will cost more to heat as I won't have any energy to steal from the guy below (another issue in blocks with a large boiler in the basement is that the flat directly above will get huge amounts of free heat from the boiler below) and so I will reckon with that when buying the property.

There is too much uncertainty about metering "heat" at the rad with those stick on things...I'm amazed the Germans can live with such uncertainty...or perhaps most of them think those things are really accurate and calibrated "somehow" to give accurate measurements for their flat and its conditions.

i'm a little confused as your ranting a bit.

a heat meter will accurately measure in kwh how much heat is being used.

it measures both flow and return. and does the calculation.

murphaph

ted1 wrote: »

i'm a little confused as your ranting a bit.

a heat meter will accurately measure in kwh how much heat is being used.

it measures both flow and return. and does the calculation.

You've clearly never seen a German "heat meter" which is simply affixed to the face of the rad. Here an older example which relies on evaporation of a liquid over time to measure the heat output by the rad:



And a "modern" digital one:


No flow and return. It's stuck on to the face of the rad.

Ranting, or stating the obvious that such devices can be way off depending on surrounding environmental factors?

ted1

murphaph wrote: »

You've clearly never seen a German "heat meter" which is simply affixed to the face of the rad. Here an older example which relies on evaporation of a liquid over time to measure the heat output by the rad:



And a "modern" digital one:


No flow and return. It's stuck on to the face of the rad.

Ranting, or stating the obvious that such devices can be way off depending on surrounding environmental factors?

you were ranting about the neighbours stealing your heat through heat losses.

this is no boards.de and what archaic system they use in Germany isn't really relevant here.

Any site that I have been involved in with regards the sub billing of tenants, has used heat meters.

murphaph

Seems like even "proper" heat meters that measure flow and return temp and perform the calculation (by the way, the cost of the plant when using these things must surely approach the savings over simply installing a boiler per unit!) must be installed properly or they will incorrectly report the heat drawn:

Link

However, we have noticed a lot of variability in how MCS installers fit heat meters in the process of installing heat meters on more than 700 heat pumps (see pages 26, 27 and 46 – 48 of the report). Incorrectly installed heat meters don’t give reliable results. That’s bad news if you’re a customer whose domestic RHI payments depend on what your meter says.

A gas meter on the other hand doesn't need to do any fancy temperature measurement & calculations. It just measures the volume of gas delivered. The meters are calibrated leaving the factory and remain accurate for decades, only rarely failing out of tolerance.

I know what I'd prefer to pay my bills according to!

I wasn't ranting by the way. Maybe the internet doesn't carry the tone very well but I have no problem with the obvious fact that energy from my apartment will leak to neighbouring ones and the other way around. Can't argue with physics. i was just pointing out that this stuff leads to disputes here and those disputes are far fewer with individual heating systems than with communal ones-how do you account for a ground floor flat gaining significant free energy from the communal boiler in the cellar directly below it, for example?

Even correctly installed and working heat meters will not be "fair" here because they will never measure the energy entering the flat except through the pipes...but the occupant will turn the rads off because he's got so much free heat coming up through the floor: I have been in apartments here where people do this.

Outkast_IRE

Don't think heat meters are necessary.

My brothers place in Germany simply measures the volume of heating water entering each apartment, and you are charged per m3, simple yet effective.

You can easily get water meters that work up to 90 degrees C for applications like this.

I believe each apartment has a room thermostat and thermostatic valves at each radiator

murphaph

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Don't think heat meters are necessary.

My brothers place in Germany simply measures the volume of heating water entering each apartment, and you are charged per m3, simple yet effective.

You can easily get water meters that work up to 90 degrees C for applications like this.

I believe each apartment has a room thermostat and thermostatic valves at each radiator

Are you sure you weren't looking at his DHW meter? Just measuring the amount of hot water flowing into his radiators wouldn't indicate how much energy he was using to heat his place because the water might be flowing back out at almost the same temp as it came in if his rad valves were turned right down!

Outkast_IRE

murphaph wrote: »

Are you sure you weren't looking at his DHW meter? Just measuring the amount of hot water flowing into his radiators wouldn't indicate how much energy he was using to heat his place because the water might be flowing back out at almost the same temp as it came in if his rad valves were turned right down!

No its the way they do it in his building , all apartments are virtually identical layout wise etc.

I am trying to follow you line of thinking on this one, lets say the common header is providing heating water @ 60 degrees, you are saying that this heating water could enter and leave his place at the same temperature ?

With a room thermostat and thermostatic rad valves, you must consider that if you needed water to come in an leave at the same temp that no heat exchange will occur for no heat exchange to occur the entire apartment would need to be 60 degrees also which is nigh on impossible.

As part of being a district heating system, he isn't allowed carry out or touch anything on the heating system except the thermostatic rad valve, which functions on/off only. The lockshield side shouldn't be touched, if the apartment will require no heat whatsoever they leave the main stat turned down.

Its an easy system to trouble shoot, and spot issues in as when checking is it working correctly in each apartment you can turn down all thermostats and thermostatic valves and ensure the meter isn't moving.

If you consider the entire block of a building has each apartment on this system, with virtually identical system in each apartment, then measuring water volume and using that to divide up costs represents a pretty accurate way of doing things. I am not saying errors wont occur, but the potential for error is there in every form of metering just look at electrical and gas metering, and the frequent posts on these forums with issues.

His building is an older building in the area though and that works for them, they seem quite happy.
He has told me a newer apartment building nearby using a small heat exchanger in each apartment with volume measurement and flow and return temps monitored to provide a more accurate result.

ted1

murphaph wrote: »

Seems like even "proper" heat meters that measure flow and return temp and perform the calculation (by the way, the cost of the plant when using these things must surely approach the savings over simply installing a boiler per unit!) must be installed properly or they will incorrectly report the heat drawn:

Link



A gas meter on the other hand doesn't need to do any fancy temperature measurement & calculations. It just measures the volume of gas delivered. The meters are calibrated leaving the factory and remain accurate for decades, only rarely failing out of tolerance.

I know what I'd prefer to pay my bills according to!

I wasn't ranting by the way. Maybe the internet doesn't carry the tone very well but I have no problem with the obvious fact that energy from my apartment will leak to neighbouring ones and the other way around. Can't argue with physics. i was just pointing out that this stuff leads to disputes here and those disputes are far fewer with individual heating systems than with communal ones-how do you account for a ground floor flat gaining significant free energy from the communal boiler in the cellar directly below it, for example?

Even correctly installed and working heat meters will not be "fair" here because they will never measure the energy entering the flat except through the pipes...but the occupant will turn the rads off because he's got so much free heat coming up through the floor: I have been in apartments here where people do this.

500 gas boilers don't offer the same savings that a large boiler can offer. especially if it comes of a CHP. Economies of scale.

any meter fitted badly is going to be wrong. Any installer or company who sub bills will ensure that the meter is calibrated and verifed our they wont last long.

Gas meters measure in m3 and are billed in kWh there is till conversion factor.

once again your talking about heat loss, that has nothing to do with the topic. Most modern boilers are extremely well insulated and the apartment besides them won't be getting much free heat through heat loss from the boiler.



here's some details on the one in HSQ.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/zanran_storage/www.arup.ie/ContentPages/2521422807.pdf
http://www.cbre.ie/portal/pls/portal/cbweb.property_frontend.show_property_brochure?id=21332
http://ecoheat4.eu/en/Country-by-country-db/Ireland/Overview-of-National-DHC-Market/

The benefits of a District Heating System are:

A safer environment for the customers: no boiler in the apartments/ retail
A more comfortable environment: assurance of an abundant and consistent heat supply
A peaceful living space: no boiler, no fuel, no odours, no noise
Facility maintained by a dedicated team of energy management engineers & technicians, guarantee of continuous supply and dedicated energy management
Proven track record in terms of reliability, efficiency and quality assurance
Space saving and individual flues not required
A greener environment: DHS can incorporate centralised biomass boilers, driving energy savings and allowing the developer / architect to meet any renewable obligations
http://www.dalkia.ie/services/energy_performance/district_energy/



Here's a case study:
http://www.seai.ie/Publications/Renewables_Publications_/Bioenergy/The_Mitchels_Boherbee_Regeneration_Project.pdf

Victor

murphaph wrote: »

A gas meter on the other hand doesn't need to do any fancy temperature measurement & calculations. It just measures the volume of gas delivered.

Ah, but the gas is colder in winter, so you get more gas per m3.

murphaph

Victor wrote: »

Ah, but the gas is colder in winter, so you get more gas per m3.

But everyone's gas is colder so the gas company can factor that in to the price.

@ted...this topic was started by a landlord wondering if a common heating system for his building makes sense, not if a district heating system makes sense so we're not talking about 500 units, more likely 5 or 10 units.

The landlord will have nothing but heartache from such a system as he becomes the utility company and unpaid heating bills are then also his problem. Just too much hassle for single buildings.

jester77

I've district heating in my place, meter where it comes into the house that wirelessly transmits back to the technical center. Saw them installing it, pipes are about 3 meters underground and are seriously insulated, about 1 foot in diameter of insulation. No issues with it, nice having instant warm water and no pricking around with boilers or immersions.

ted1

can you tell people what you currently pay per kWh, including all fixed costs.

i./e total bill/total kwh.

jester77

ted1 wrote: »

can you tell people what you currently pay per kWh, including all fixed costs.

i./e total bill/total kwh.

I don't have the break down here, but the total bill is around €175 a month. That also includes water which is also piped into the house from center plus the various costs for running the center (insurance, maintenance, electricity, salary costs, etc)

bobofrut

jester77 wrote: »

I don't have the break down here, but the total bill is around €175 a month. That also includes water which is also piped into the house from center plus the various costs for running the center (insurance, maintenance, electricity, salary costs, etc)

Are you the owner of this property or a tenant? I'm asking because if you are only renting then I think the maintenance should be landlord responsibility, am I right?

murphaph

Jester own his house.

This is a different issue though to the OP's question, which was about installing a common boiler for a building rather than boilers in each unit. If Jester's didtrict heating provider has a boiler failure, they can switch over to their reserve. Which brings me on to....

We've also not mentioned the extra single point of failure than a common "boiler in the basement" brings. If I have one boiler and it breaks I have multiple tenants screaming at me to get it fixed and the whole building gets cold quickly. A private landlord with this setup won't have a reserve boiler like the district heating company.

If I have a gas boiler in each unit and one dies, well I still have to get it fixed asap but the rest of the building's heat will help prevent the unit with the failed boiler from getting cold really quickly and the main problem will be hot water, which can in an emergency be boiled in the kettle or on the hob. An entire building without heat will be freezing cold in no time!