religion & schools

LegacyUser

Hi guys,

There's something bothering me and i'd appreciate any advice you can give.

My ex and I have a young child who is not of school going age yet. We're not on great terms and don't speak unless it's related to the child. So far we have managed to keep things civil and out of the courts, he sees the child whenever he wants and pays maintenance.

He is in a very high paying job, and when we were together we split everything 50/50 rent, bills, groceries etc, and he wants to approach raising the child in the same way. Which is ok to a degree as the maintenance hasn't increased since the baby was born and it works out that i pay the creche fees which makes all the childs expenses divided roughly equally between us.

Here's the problem:
i'm not in the same league as him with my earnings, and he has very set religious views, he doesn't want the child raised with any religious input- this is fine with me, i wouldn't be that religious anyway. We put the baby down for non religious primary schools which are not private.
The secondary schools are a different issue- they're mostly religious (i know it's more in theory then practice, but he won't accept that as he wasn't raised in Ireland and thinks the child will be indoctrinated). So he chose 2 fee paying secondary schools- they're great schools anyway so i was happy to agree, but a main reason for him is their more multi denominational approach.
He wants to pay half the fees while I pay the other half. This is my issue, look i know it's far far into the future, but as it currently stands, I may not be able to afford my half when the time comes. And therefore i would need the child to go to a state school and I would need to put their name down now.
I have tried to speak with him about it, but he won't give me a clear answer and tells me that I have no ambition in life as to expect to not be able to pay half the fees. But then says that education is really important to him.
I am struggling enough as it is, and he won't hear of putting him down for a religious (in name only, I know that) school, but won't pay for the private fees if I can't give half.

Any advice is really welcome, thank you for reading

ABajaninCork

Then if he won't listen to reason, then put the child in the school best suited to his needs - whether that be religious or not. Having ambition is fine - As long as you can pay for it!


Of course - if the father is happy to foot the entire bill for the fees, then that's different.

December2012

Your child us not in school yet. So you have 9 years before you have to pay. Whatever you're paying for crèche now is unlikely to be the same as for school.
have you got prices yet for what the annual fees will be?


Also, look into Educate Together secondary schools, some are being built now.

MagicMarker

Can you not just put his name down for a state school anyway? You may as well keep your options open.

sashafierce

This post has been deleted.

woodchuck

MagicMarker wrote: »

Can you not just put his name down for a state school anyway? You may as well keep your options open.

I think this is a good idea. Then when you get closer to the time you can discuss it again? He'll have no choice then but to face up the reality that you just can't afford it and the only options are (i) a 'religious' school or (ii) he foots the bill for private school.

SpaceTime

Unfortunately Ireland doesn't really have state schools. It has wholly state funded schools over 95% of which are operated by religious institutions.

Educate Together would be your only non denominational option, that wouldn't incur fees.

Most private schools here here religious (many much more heavily so than state funded schools)

Obliq

Where are you in the country OP? That will make difference come the time to decide for real. In south Dublin, Newpark comprehensive school was/is multi-denominational, and it's sister school on the north side (um...Mount Temple?) is too. They didn't manage (or try) to indoctrinate this atheist into anything except a thorough disliking for authority ;-)

Just as an aside, if your ex is so proscriptive that he is already determining which secondary HE will accept, as opposed to finding a compromise with you, do you think he will also be unwilling to take your child's wishes into consideration? I can tell you for a fact that your child will have an opinion on where he/she wants to go by age 12. Mine had the final say, in fact. I personally would try and keep every option open for your child, as well as for yourself and your ex.

uck51js9zml2yt

i'd agree with the above. Educate together are non denominational and looking to expand into secondary schools. 9 years is a long time.
Also, if the current Minister for Education has his way, a a self confessed atheist, his plan is to remove all religion from schools.
We're in a slightly different boat. We're not Catholic but have no problem putting our son into the local Catholic Primary School. Some of his friends from Montessori will be there and will provide continuity. We'll probably also send him to the local CBS unless educate together open a secondary school in the area.
Now we may decide to send him to the ET in 2016 when the time comes but that's our plan.

As for religious education, that's down to us to teach our kids.

LegacyUser

Hi everyone, Op here.

Thank you to all who posted, your advice is a very welcome relief! Magicmarker- that's a great idea, and I will do what you suggest, i feel like I need to cover myself and have a plan B in case things don't financially work out for me as well as i hope. Thank you for that.

We're in South Dublin, and Newpark is close by, but the childs Dad won't accept it as an option as he has heard things he didn't like about it. I know people who went and loved it, so it will be one of the ones i will put him down for anyway.
Obliq, I can tell you for certain he will not take the childs wishes into account regarding a choice of school if they are at odds with his.
I know the Educate Together Secondary schools are predicted to open in the near future and we have discussed these, however my ex has issues with them as they will be relatively new when the time comes for our child to go to secondary. He thinks an established secondary school is best. However I will put the childs name down for these also.

I know 9 years is a very long time away, and there will probably be huge changes in religious education between now and then, but I need to put his name down for a few now, so that's why is's an issue at the moment.

Woodchuck, you're right, it may come down to a choice by him in the end where he can a) Accept the child going to a religious school but save money if I can't meet my half of the fees or Pay the fees if I can't

Thank you all

SpaceTime

Bear in mind Newpark may be open minded, but it's a Church of Ireland comprehensive much like Ashton in Cork.

Its patron is the Church of Ireland Archbishop of Dublin.

Unless you're looking at the 'grind schools' which are totally private, until Educate Together open at second level, there isn't anything that you'd really call a fully secular school in the modern sense.

I know some of those 'grind schools' have widened out to become full secondary schools in recent years, but they'd be really super exam-focused and I'm not sure about the idea of all that pressure all the time.

I don't really see how the Educate Together secondary schools are likely to be any better or worse academically than anything else though. They'll all be teaching the same curriculum with teachers trained in the same places drawn from the same pool of graduates / existing teachers.

Educate Together would be a good option for primary right now though and it's not fee paying.

Secondary level stuff will emerge and I think really a lot of how well you do is about the individual student and how they get on in the school environment as much as the school itself.

Finding the 'right' place for your particular kids is the biggest challenge really.

At the end of the day though I think yourself and your ex need to compromise.

Private school isn't very affordable and if that's all the state has to offer, short of suing the state for discrimination against non-religious (something that probably needs to happen anyway), there's really very little else you can do as the facility is not offered by the state other than as a few token gestures at present.

Tramps Like Us

A lot of the private schools are more religious, especially the protestant ones .

SpaceTime

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

A lot of the private schools are more religious, especially the protestant ones .

I'd agree with that, but a lot of the private Catholic ones are pretty seriously religious too (I speak from having been a student in a few different schools).

Personally, I actually think the bigger issue I'd have (if I were a parent) is the single gender schools.
I really don't like the idea of sending a kid to an all male or all female school. They need to mix.

Bafucin

Skool wrote: »

Hi guys,

There's something bothering me and i'd appreciate any advice you can give.

My ex and I have a young child who is not of school going age yet. We're not on great terms and don't speak unless it's related to the child. So far we have managed to keep things civil and out of the courts, he sees the child whenever he wants and pays maintenance.

He is in a very high paying job, and when we were together we split everything 50/50 rent, bills, groceries etc, and he wants to approach raising the child in the same way. Which is ok to a degree as the maintenance hasn't increased since the baby was born and it works out that i pay the creche fees which makes all the childs expenses divided roughly equally between us.

Here's the problem:
i'm not in the same league as him with my earnings, and he has very set religious views, he doesn't want the child raised with any religious input- this is fine with me, i wouldn't be that religious anyway. We put the baby down for non religious primary schools which are not private.
The secondary schools are a different issue- they're mostly religious (i know it's more in theory then practice, but he won't accept that as he wasn't raised in Ireland and thinks the child will be indoctrinated). So he chose 2 fee paying secondary schools- they're great schools anyway so i was happy to agree, but a main reason for him is their more multi denominational approach.
He wants to pay half the fees while I pay the other half. This is my issue, look i know it's far far into the future, but as it currently stands, I may not be able to afford my half when the time comes. And therefore i would need the child to go to a state school and I would need to put their name down now.
I have tried to speak with him about it, but he won't give me a clear answer and tells me that I have no ambition in life as to expect to not be able to pay half the fees. But then says that education is really important to him.
I am struggling enough as it is, and he won't hear of putting him down for a religious (in name only, I know that) school, but won't pay for the private fees if I can't give half.

Any advice is really welcome, thank you for reading

You could ask the school for an exemption from all religious activities and classes would that appease him?

Obliq

Bafucin wrote: »

You could ask the school for an exemption from all religious activities and classes would that appease him?

That's what people do already, but it doesn't stop the 'ethos' from being brought to bear on all the students, regardless of whether you're exempt or not. If the teachers are particularly keen on religion and the school backs them, then any class can get a religious/moralistic angle. Sure, the school might even invite in "Pure in Heart" to give a sex ed class by taping children together to show them they're dirty for having sex!

Have to admit, I can see the OP's ex's difficulty with the Irish debacle of a system, but some schools really are religious in name only (even tho they shouldn't have to be even that...)

SpaceTime

Nathanael Curved Paragraph wrote: »

i'd agree with the above. Educate together are non denominational and looking to expand into secondary schools. 9 years is a long time.
Also, if the current Minister for Education has his way, a a self confessed atheist, his plan is to remove all religion from schools.

He's actually not done that at all. He's proposing to disentangle religion from the school day so that religion classes would be first class in the morning or last in the evening. He's also giving parents in schools a choice and actually the Catholic Church has been very keen to reduce its involvement in education. The archbishop of Dublin was complaining that the state wasn't moving a process along quickly enough!!

Even the term 'self confessed atheist' is a bit of a loaded term used to describe athiests. It's like implying that it's something one should be ashamed of and comes from an era when it was considered heresy.

You'd never hear of a 'self confessed catholic' etc etc

I realise that's probably not your intention in using the phrase but it's beginning to become an over-used cliché as a way of describing atheists, particularly in the US and right wing media.

The current primary curriculum encourages schools to mix religious stuff into everything which makes it very difficult for non-Catholic / non-Chuch of Ireland students to opt out. They're often left sitting in the classroom colouring in or made (inadvertently) feel extremely excluded.

There's also an ongoing problem with huge % of classroom time being dedicated to preparation of children for First Communion and Confirmation.

Magicmatilda

The only advice I can give you is this.

If you cannot afford to send the child to private school then you cannot afford it - simples. If he wants it then he should pay. As for ambition - maybe your ambitions lie in a different direction to financial wealth. Perhaps you have an ambition to be a good parent with a healthy work life balance. Anyway he is your ex, he has no say in how ambitious you should be.

I know someone in the same situation and the child is now in secondary. The father agreed to pay the fees. However they agreed to split everything else 50/50. This has put a lot of pressure on the mum because all the school trips, uniforms, sport etc.. are aimed and priced at people who can afford a private school and as such are even more expensive than in a non fee paying school (which is expensive enough). Bear that in mind in any agreements.

Separate to all of this he seems very controlling. You need to address that as he will not be able to be so controlling with a child. As someone said at 12 the child will decide where they want to go and their imput should be considered.

As others are saying it is at least 9 years away and anything could happen in that time so try not to worry about it.

Boldberry

If this was me, I would put the child's name down for a couple of non fee paying religious schools and just hope you have the cash for half the fees by thd time the child is ready for school. There is also a good chance that the schools you choose may not be in the hands of the religious by then. And lastly, you both could have a bigger family then and he might thank you that you have hedged your bets because neither of you have the money.

tinkerbell

I agree with what's been said here - are you the child's sole guardian? If so, you have final say and if he expects the child to be sent to a fee paying school when you are happy going to a public school, then HE should be the one paying for the full fees. He sounds really controlling, OP. It sounds like he wants final say on the matter and doesn't give a crap about what you think which is why you need to stand up for yourself - there sounds like there's no compromise at all with him. You need to nip this in the bud now because you're in for a rough few years otherwise.

And at the end of the day, private school is extremely expensive. If you can't afford it, then that's the end of that - no further discussion. There's no point in even trying unless you are flush with the cash as you'll spend the years scrimping and scraping while your child is attending a private school but will have to miss out on everything else in order to do so as you won't have any money left over after paying the fees. That and school tours, activities etc will prob be way more expensive too.

iguana

Do you actually really have to put a child's name down for a secondary school before they even start primary? Is that genuinely how the system for entry to second level works?

SpaceTime

I know people who registered 'hypothetical children' before they were even in the womb!

For primary though, not secondary

LegacyUser

OP just tell your ex your covering all your bases as no one can tell what will change in 9 years. One or both of you may loose your job or get a better paying one, one or both of you may have more children which means less money to focus on one child. Schools might close, new ones might open. Your child may have very strong ideas about were they want to go to school or they might have an interest like science/art/sport that makes one school more desired over others. Most of my friends who have kids put them down for as many schools as they can so they have those options. Have your preferences but have your back-ups.

meeeeh

Oh dear. I have a 100% atheist friend from 100% atheist family. He went to religious private school because it was considered better and he did not catch some kind of religion virus. He did get good education though. I think that your ex is a bit too cotrolling and if he wants to send kid to a fee paying school then he should pay. But the arrangement also has to suit you as primary carer. No point trekking over half of the country just because of something fairly minor.

Personally I would like schools to drop any kind of religion teaching and use money for other stuff but if there is religion in school there are ways to avoid or ignore it.

LegacyUser

Op here,

Thank you again to all who took the time to reply.

One thing- I'm completely in agreement with spacetime who mentioned mixed versus single sex schools. The child is only being put down for mixed schools, and i think the social element to education is just as important as the academic, so i would prefer him not to go to a school that focuses solely on academic achievement.

I believe it's common to put childrens, or even babies names down for secondary schools as early as possible, when I speak to other parents about it, i find they have done the same. I myself was put down for my secondary school when I was a baby, as well as my siblings, and most of my friends. So it's not that strange to me, even though when you actually think about it it's a bit mad.

Yes, I am the sole guardian and my ex is extremely controlling, but I would like us to come to an agreement on major decisions. Ultimately, i will have to take all your good advice on board- i hadn't even thought about the possibility I might have another child by then, and that I would need to allocate my money to more than one!
Even though my ex would not allow our son to choose his own school if it didn't match his own, the child WILL have a say in the choice of his own school, that's a given. We are separated, so as much as we would like to come to mutual civil agreement on big decisions, it won't always happen.
I am a bit worried about him agreeing to pay the fees but wanting 50/50 for everything else, so I may really struggle with school trips etc, that's something important to consider also

Lots of food for thought here, thank you all

JuliusCaesar

It seems to me that the whole arrangement is intrinsically unfair - to you and to the child in particular. There's usually a formula that 20% of the joint income goes towards child maintenance, and each parent pays proportionately. If you earn 25K and he earns 50K, the joint income is 75k; 20% of that is 15K. But as he earns 66% of the joint income, he is liable for 66% of the 15k (i.e. €9,900) and you are liable for 33% (€4,950) and so his monthly contribution is €825, yours is €412.50. Does the child live with you or with him? Who pays for heating, food, babysitters if you go out etc? With a larger paternal contribution, the fee-paying school might well be viable.

LegacyUser

Hi Julius Caesar,

Thank you for your info- I have been to a solicitor before once, it was more of a general discussion, so maybe he didn't feel the need at the time to break it down like you have.
The discrepancy between our salaries is far larger than your example. I am around the 20- 25k bracket, while my ex is in the 175- 200k.

He pays maintenance that he thinks is fair and while it's manageable for now, when the child is older, there will be other expenses that I'm already worried about having to fight for.
My ex is not a generous man, but i don't have the energy to fight about every single cent.

If he gave up his job tomorrow, he'd still be comfortable for the rest of his life, and paying the fees & costs for a private school for the child in theory wouldn't make much of a financial dent to him, but he feels that it's not about the money, but the principle of the matter- he should pay 50% and i should pay the other 50%.

This financial principle he has is something that worries me, when it comes to education.

He is extreme on this 50% divide- like he wants me to calculate the petrol costs for car journeys ONLY when the child is in the car or when im running an errand related to him, and he will pay 50% of that. Any journeys i do for myself (trip to the shops/ visit someone are to be calculated and taken off the amount) I do use the car but not excessively. Needless to say, I haven't done it. The amount I use it for myself wouldn't make any monetary difference, and how to you even calculate the electricity costs where it's only as a result of having the baby? I mean, we're both in the room and the heating's on, how do you calculate 50% of what the child uses only?

In answer to your question, my parents have been generous enough to allow us to move back to the family home for the short term, but of course i pay rent & contributions to bills, buy food for the house, make family dinners etc. I go out only when the ex has the baby overnight so no babysitters needed.

Tramps Like Us

Go to court OP and you'll in all likelihood end up living quite comfortably.

tinkerbell

Agree with the above. Your ex is completely out of order here - go to court and get a court ordered maintenance agreement.

ABajaninCork

Your ex is controlling you with his money. He's also mean. How involved is he with your child's life, other than demanding private education for which you must pay half...

Are you the primary care giver? I would go to court and get a proper order of maintenance. If he wants to pay school fees then make sure it's part of the order.

Obliq

Dear OP, remaining under your ex's control is not usually what happens when you break up with someone. I personally have a separation agreement with my ex, which states (among many other things) that he must not interfere in my life. Your ex is still the boss of you. To be quite honest, a my solicitor would be HORRIFIED at the financial hoops he's asking you to jump through to sooth his "principals".

I agree with the other posters - go find a solicitor and get something on paper that suits YOU better. You will have to cross this bridge with your ex at some stage, although I hear you when you say you haven't the energy (for his reactions to your opinion, am I right?? - that's what the "not interfering in each other's lives" clause is for) - do yourself a favour for your future, and your child's and get some help. You won't be doing it alone if you find a GOOD solicitor, that you get on with.

diveout

This is such controlling behavior, it reeks of financial abuse. Funny how an ex can do it across a separated divide.

If he wants private school, let him pay for it.

And you need to stop colluding in it.

stickybookmark

OP, AFAIK it doesn't cost you anything to take him to court for maintenance apart from maybe a nominal fee for lodging the court summons. You can represent yourself. Both of you will be required to bring a summary of your income and monthly expenditure along with you. You should have a figure in mind for what you want per week and the judge will decide what's fair. Of course you're better off with a solicitor but you don't have to have one.

tcif

Skool wrote: »

I am around the 20- 25k bracket, while my ex is in the 175- 200k

That salary discrepancy is huge! There is no way it's reasonable or feasible for your ex to make decisions based on his financial position and expect you to match it. It can't be done and you shouldn't try or entertain the idea for a moment or feel guilty about it or let him deride your ambitions for your child's future because of it. I'm sure you have lots of hopes and ambitions for your child's future and will do the best you can with what you have and that's all that can be asked of any parent. There are so many things that go into a successful future - a work ethic, ambition, pride, honesty etc. - that a parent can give a child that don't cost a thing and, in my opinion, are just as important as money thrown at a private education.

If you're currently splitting everything 50/50 then you are already contributing way more than he is relative to your means. If he wants more and can afford more, he should pay more and he should understand raising your child is not a 50/50 tit-for-tat.

SpaceTime

If he wants the kid to go to some particular private school and has that kind of income, why are you splitting it 50:50?

He could easily afford the fees.

It doesn't sound like you're morally opposed to the idea, just that you can't afford it. So, if you both think the private school is a good idea, maybe he should cough up the cash!

Obliq

SpaceTime wrote: »

If he wants the kid to go to some particular private school and has that kind of income, why are you splitting it 50:50?

He could easily afford the fees.

It doesn't sound like you're morally opposed to the idea, just that you can't afford it. So, if you both think the private school is a good idea, maybe he should cough up the cash!

He is controlling how ambitious she should be. Apparently, if she already thinks she won't be able to afford it, that's some kind of a failing and one he won't tolerate. I gotta say, it's weird that the OP would take that kind of instruction from her ex.

Glinda

As a matter of interest, OP, where is the non-religious fee-paying school? I don't know of any.

lazygal

Glinda wrote: »

As a matter of interest, OP, where is the non-religious fee-paying school? I don't know of any.

There are some in Dublin. Private schools like Ashfield College and the Institute of Education which only do fifth and sixth year but aren't religious. Then there's Sutton Park which is multidenominational. Sandford Park is another one, which is non denominational. That's just off the top of my head, I'm sure there's more in Dublin and elsewhere.

Glinda

Thanks Lazygal - I didn't know about the ethos of Sutton Park/Sandford Park. It's still a very restricted number. Personally I wouldn't really count the other two in the mix as they are grind schools rather than all-rounders.

Still, the OP's partner may have an inflated idea of the number of options available that fulfill his criteria.

SpaceTime

The Educate Together options are increasing though. By the time your kid is hitting second level there may be quite a few more of them.

Also, be careful about what people say about these schools. I've noticed a very definte bias against them as they're 'new' or 'hippy dippy'.

I know a few people who went through the Educate Together primary school system who are now in their adulthood and they all have nothing but positives to say about it.
They're also some of the most rounded and confident people I know.

They seem to have an ethos of getting kids to think for themselves and also tend to have very good focus on community / locality and generally just have a very nice vibe.

Academic performance is largely down to the individual kid in second level and I think to be honest going into university as a confident, participating type is as huge a deal as CAO points.

If someone wants to go for the 500+ point courses, they'll be as able to do that in an Educate Together school as anywhere else and may have a less stressful, more open minded atmosphere to work in.

The private grind schools are just that.. Total focus on study and points. That might not suit everyone. So be a little careful!

But, in general just explore the options and get caught up on private school snobbery either.

Gyalist

lazygal wrote: »

Sandford Park is another one, which is non denominational.

Sandford Park also became co-educational from last September.

JuliusCaesar

OP, you can get free advice from Treoir and OneFamily, both of which are for single and unmarried parents.

It does seem that he is trying to control you through the child. Imagine taking advantage of your parents' generosity in such a mean way - that's beyond frugal, that's stingey.

LegacyUser

Your ex sounds like a right control freak. Every thing is about what he wants.
The reality is that you both have very different incomes and at the moment you are spending far more of your income bring up your child.
If you ex is earning €175k a year or has assets which are generating this income he needs to know that he should not be annoying you over the 50% of school fees due in 9 years time.
The reality is that he is not covering half the costs of bring up the child you had together.
How does he expect you to pay half the school fees in 9 years time?
What school does he think the child will attend in 9 year times that is fee paying and has no religion?
Has he any idea of the cost of fee paying schools - most of the Dublin day schools that are fee paying the fees are €5,000 to €6,000 a year at the moment. A boarding school could be €15,000 a year plus.

At this stage in your position I would be doing the following:
a) Agree with what your ex is saying but I would be putting your child name down in a few local secondary schools. I would not be worried if they are catholic/church of ireland ect.
b) Get prof of you ex income and speak to a solicitor about getting a get a court ordered maintenance agreement. As your child gets older you will be covering higher food, clothes, education ect costs and you need to take this into consideration.

I would be prepared to stand up to you ex and be getting a proper amount of money from him each month to bring up your child.
Also as your child gets older you will see where there talents/abilities lie. When your child comes to secondary school age you need to take into consideration if they are better at practical tasks or are they bright at school so they can do the subjects that suit them.