Quotes for comparative

jc4517

I was looking through the marking scheme for last years english paper and it doesn't say anywhere that marks are awarded for use of quotes. Are they absolutely necessary?

Hotale.com

Don't need them for the comparative, you just need to refer to each text.

Mr Pseudonym

It will be very difficult to adequately compare texts without quoting from them. I'm sure there are exceptions, but the vast majority who don't quote are likely to be the ones who are unprepared and who will do badly. Just choose a few "key moments" from the texts, and memorise two or three versatile quotations from them. When I was doing it, I would alter one or two quotes to fit my answer, and used regularly to make scraps that I could remember appear longer by putting those bits in quotation marks, and then making a coherent sentence out of them - e.g. a "small step" for an astronaut; a "giant leap" for the human race.

Hotale.com

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

It will be very difficult to adequately compare texts without quoting from them. I'm sure there are exceptions, but the vast majority who don't quote are likely to be the ones who are unprepared and who will do badly. Just choose a few "key moments" from the texts, and memorise two or three versatile quotations from them. When I was doing it, I would alter one or two quotes to fit my answer, and used regularly to make scraps that I could remember appear longer by putting those bits in quotation marks, and then making a coherent sentence out of them - e.g. a "small step" for an astronaut; a "giant leap" for the human race.

So my teacher is even worse than I thought, he said we only have to refer. First thing he told us in TY was that "the days of As and Bs are behind ye lads". Where do they find some of these people...

EoghanIRL

Yes you do need accurate reference from the text I.e quotes . Says so in ms
Just learn key moments from each text

Mr Pseudonym

EoghanIRL wrote: »

Says so in ms

Where? I can't find it.

Hotale.com

What do he actually think of the comparative? Beside theme or issue no one in our school seems to know what the thing is really about.

robman60

Hotale.com wrote: »

What do he actually think of the comparative? Beside theme or issue no one in our school seems to know what the thing is really about.

My least favourite question on the course by a long shot. It's ludicrous comparing texts and films which are so vastly different. My favourite film on the course is Casablanca, but how can I compare that with The Road and Macbeth? There simply is no logical grounds for comparison.

On a personal level, I prefer evaluating works independently instead of trying to force a comparison under certain set criteria.

Not taking your thread but could someone explain to me what you guys do for general vision and viewpoint? I'm comfortable with theme or issue and cultural context, but I haven't done any pieces under this heading.

Mr Pseudonym

Hotale.com wrote: »

What do he actually think of the comparative? Beside theme or issue no one in our school seems to know what the thing is really about.

I think it's a good concept killed by the fact that they can't ask specific questions. Hence, you have: the idiotic "modes of comparison"; there being much benefit to preparing essays; and little engagement with anything deeper than the most obvious themes of the texts - "Winston was angry...but not as angry as Caulfield".

In my fantasy curriculum, students would select a theme from a list, each of which would have a list of texts (eg: Dystopia - Brave New World, Handmaid's Tale, ...; 19th Century Romanticism - Pride and Predjudice, Wuthering Heights, ...; The Plays of Beckett - Godot, Krapp, ...; The Stories of Joyce's Dubliners - An Encounter, The Dead...; etc. They would then be required to answer specific questions which would require comparison. A question like, "Do Joyce's Dubliners have similar outlooks?", would be so much more engaging, and require a greater understanding of the texts, than the current Comparative.

Hotale.com

robman60 wrote: »

Not taking your thread but could someone explain to me what you guys do for general vision and viewpoint? I'm comfortable with theme or issue and cultural context, but I haven't done any pieces under this heading.

I THINK you make it what you want it to be, you can talk about the author's vision for his work, the viewpoints of different characters in each work and how they react to each situation, and how, from your viewpoint, you view the text. No one seems to know for sure!

Could you help me out with cultural context? Our teacher told us it's the effect the environment has on the characters and the way the characters react to each situation.. I thought it would have more to do with the cultural impact each had or how the environments of each text were similar/dissimilar..

Hotale.com

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

I think it's a good concept killed by the fact that they can't ask specific questions. Hence, you have: the idiotic "modes of comparison"; there being much benefit to preparing essays; and little engagement with anything deeper than the most obvious themes of the texts - "Winston was angry...but not as angry as Caulfield".

In my fantasy curriculum, students would select a theme from a list, each of which would have a list of texts (eg: Dystopia - Brave New World, Handmaid's Tale, ...; 19th Century Romanticism - Pride and Predjudice, Wuthering Heights, ...; The Plays of Beckett - Godot, Krapp, ...; etc); The Stories of Joyce's Dubliners - An Encounter, The Dead... They would then be required to answer specific questions which would require comparison. A question like, "Do Joyce's Dubliners have similar outlooks?", would be so much more engaging, and require a greater understanding of the texts, than the current Comparative.

It wouldn't surprise me if they ask broad questions on purpose. Most people in my year are learning off their essays, which are generally written by grinds teachers, and just writing them off in the exam. I think the fact that so many people are doing this is why they don't change it, otherwise there would be uproar.

robman60

That's a very interesting concept Mr Pseudonym, and definitely would require a greater depth of analysis from the student.

I like English as a whole and write at my best when I can get in a flow. The comparative kills this as I'm constantly looking for tenuous links between the texts about societal structure and the quest for survival. I feel the student is restricted in what he or she writes as you are continuously struggling to
develop these feeble comparisons.

@Hotale.com
For cultural context I generally refer to:
-Role of women
-Power structure ->monarchy etc
-Importance of social class
-What's valued by society? Power?
-What's socially acceptable? Is killing acceptable?

I am by no means an authority and these mightn't be the best suggestions. Power structure and social class work particularly well as I do Macbeth as a comparative piece.

Mr Pseudonym

robman60 wrote: »

I like English as a whole and write at my best when I can get in a flow. The comparative kills this as I'm constantly looking for tenuous links between the texts about societal structure and the quest for survival. I feel the student is restricted in what he or she writes as you are continuously struggling to develop these feeble comparisons.

I think the problem is, as you say, the feebleness of the comparisons. That's not to say, though (and ofc), that there isn't value to comparing literature. Just that, it should be done where it is interesting and warranted.

Hotale.com wrote: »

It wouldn't surprise me if they ask broad questions on purpose. Most people in my year are learning off their essays, which are generally written by grinds teachers, and just writing them off in the exam. I think the fact that so many people are doing this is why they don't change it, otherwise there would be uproar.

Not sure I agree. It doesn't stop them messing around with poets. I think the main reason is that they are constrained by the number and variety of texts.

Hotale.com

robman60 wrote: »

@Hotale.com
For cultural context I generally refer to:
-Role of women
-Power structure ->monarchy etc
-Importance of social class
-What's valued by society? Power?
-What's socially acceptable? Is killing acceptable?

I am by no means an authority and these mightn't be the best suggestions. Power structure and social class work particularly well as I do Macbeth as a comparative piece.

Cheers Ugh.. I'd say our texts are just brutal, film = I'm not Scared (kidnapped child), book = 1984 (you know, Big Brother and all that) and play = Sive (arranged marriage in 1950s Kerry). So vastly different and even lack a range of shared themes, I'll just have to make do I suppose.

Can I also just say that 1984 is the most overrated books I've ever read, Orwell's prose is so dull and bland, there is literally no flavour in his writing. I can understand the terrible setting and how it genuinely has relevance today, but the book really isn't worth reading in my opinion.. Anyway, rant done

robman60

Hotale.com wrote: »

Cheers Ugh.. I'd say our texts are just brutal, film = I'm not Scared (kidnapped child), book = 1984 (you know, Big Brother and all that) and play = Sive (arranged marriage in 1950s Kerry). So vastly different and even lack a range of shared themes, I'll just have to make do I suppose.

Can I also just say that 1984 is the most overrated books I've ever read, Orwell's prose is so dull and bland, there is literally no flavour in his writing. I can understand the terrible setting and how it genuinely has relevance today, but the book really isn't worth reading in my opinion.. Anyway, rant done

Not sure I agree about 1984. I find it particularly interesting as it's almost like a premonition of what communism can become and has become in North Korea. It's the concept that's more interesting to me than the actual delivery.

However, the most overrated text I've ever read is also on our syllabus. It's Hemmingway's The Old Man and The Sea and I can easily say it's the most abysmally boring thing I've ever endured to the end.

Hotale.com

robman60 wrote: »

Not sure I agree about 1984. I find it particularly interesting as it's almost like a premonition of what communism can be become and has become in North Korea. It's the concept that's more interesting to me than the actual delivery.

However, the most overrated text I've ever read is also on our syllabus. It's Hemmingway's The Old Man and The Sea and I can easily say it's the most abysmally boring thing I've ever endured to the end.

Never read your one, but with 1984 I just felt it was a very convoluted way of him publishing a political essay i.e. Goldstein's book.. Anyway, this is off topic (is it?) and we shouldn't really take over the OP's thread (unless this gets turned into a general comparative rant thread, which would actually be beautiful) :P

Mr Pseudonym

Hotale.com wrote: »

Can I also just say that 1984 is the most overrated books I've ever read, Orwell's prose is so dull and bland, there is literally no flavour in his writing. I can understand the terrible setting and how it genuinely has relevance today, but the book really isn't worth reading in my opinion.. Anyway, rant done

It's one of the most effecting books I've ever read! After reading it for the first time, I immediately started again. It is soo dense with themes, as well. However, I will admit that the more I read it, the less impressed I am by the central narrative - being betrayed by O'Brien and Charrington is a little bit cliched! But, and excuse that I am comparing (!), like in Never Let Me Go, the reader is led to believe that the characters can and will achieve what they are trying to, and, when they don't, the sense of disappointment is quite powerful. That Fear and Selfishness overcomes Love, is pretty is incredibly bleak - and I like bleak!

robman60 wrote: »

However, the most overrated text I've ever read is also on our syllabus. It's Hemmingway's The Old Man and The Sea and I can easily say it's the most abysmally boring thing I've ever endured to the end.

I love Hemmingway. But, although I've started it twice, I've yet to finish The Old Man and the Sea!

Hotale.com

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

It's one of the most effecting books I've ever read! After reading it for the first time, I immediately started again. It is soo dense with themes, as well. However, I will admit that the more I read it, the less impressed I am by the central narrative - being betrayed by O'Brien and Charrington is a little bit cliched! But, and excuse that I am comparing (!), like in Never Let Me Go, the reader is led to believe that the characters can and will achieve what they are trying to, and, when they don't, the sense of disappointment is quite powerful. That Fear and Selfishness overcomes Love, is pretty is incredibly bleak - and I like bleak!

Did you really believe Winston would succeed? I thought throughout reading it that he'd be caught, he knows from the start that he can't win and constantly acknowledges this; I thought that was one of the better parts, he accepts his fate and continues to rebel anyway.

robman60

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

I love Hemmingway. But, although I've started it twice, I've yet to finish The Old Man and the Sea!

Don't waste your time. Count the spoons in your dishwasher or type the alphabet with your nose - I'm pretty sure that would make better use of time.

Mr Pseudonym

robman60 wrote: »

Don't waste your time. Count the spoons in your dishwasher or type the alphabet with your nose - I'm pretty sure that would make better use of time.

Iirc, it was referred to in the blurb for his Nobel Prize!

Edit: yep - "for his mastery of the art of narrative, most recently demonstrated in The Old Man and the Sea, and for the influence that he has exerted on contemporary style".

Mr Pseudonym

Hotale.com wrote: »

Did you really believe Winston would succeed? I thought throughout reading it that he'd be caught, he knows from the start that he can't win and constantly acknowledges this; I thought that was one of the better parts, he accepts his fate and continues to rebel anyway.

I first read it when I was sixteen. I wonder would I have anticipated that were I this age. He can't succeed; but, for a while, it seems that Love can!

Hotale.com

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

I first read it when I was sixteen. I wonder would I have anticipated that were I this age. He can't succeed; but, for a while, it seems that Love can!

To be honest I wouldn't even have considered what they has to be "love", just some twisted form of lust that they are so unfamiliar with that they consider it love. Maybe I'm just too cynical for the most cynical book ever published

Mr Pseudonym

Hotale.com wrote: »

To be honest I wouldn't even have considered what they has to be "love", just some twisted form of lust that they are so unfamiliar with that they consider it love. Maybe I'm just too cynical for the most cynical book ever published

Whatever it is (and it raises questions about whether Lust is distinguishable from Love) it looked like something could be achieved - maybe their offspring continuing the resistance. But, no: "There lie they, and here lie we..."

I'm not sure it's a cynical book, either. Individuality destroyed by the machine - I would sooner class that as "bleak".

Anyway, I wish I had done that for my LC rather than Lies of Silence. OMFG, it's such a terrible book. And it won a Booker! :eek: