Weekend driving experience

Woodville56

Drove from Clifden to Galway this morning after Easter break in the west. As would be expected, traffic on this stretch of road coming to the end of a Bank Holiday weekend was quite heavy. But the level of disregard for rules of the road witnessed on this trip was unreal !! Blatantly dangerous overtaking on narrow and winding stretches, often on continuous white lines; speeding - way in excess of safe speeds on these country roads, tailgating etc etc . And it wasn't souped up "boy racer" type vehicles either ! Mostly high powered cars, 4x4's and quite a few of them 13/14 D reg's !
Didn't see a Garda checkpoint or speed control van all weekend either ! Very much a case of "when the cat's away " ie under resourced Garda traffic division and city slickers who drive as if they're still on the motorway system !

Noccy_Mondy

Don't you know that rules of the road don't apply out there?!! :P But it can be very frustrating on them winding roads, there are very little chances to overtake anything, hence the dangerous overtaking. I hate driving on them roads, no sooner have you built up any speed at all, you have to slow right down, in order to take the bends!

Damien360

Woodville56 wrote: »

Drove from Clifden to Galway this morning after Easter break in the west. As would be expected, traffic on this stretch of road coming to the end of a Bank Holiday weekend was quite heavy. But the level of disregard for rules of the road witnessed on this trip was unreal !! Blatantly dangerous overtaking on narrow and winding stretches, often on continuous white lines; speeding - way in excess of safe speeds on these country roads, tailgating etc etc . And it wasn't souped up "boy racer" type vehicles either ! Mostly high powered cars, 4x4's and quite a few of them 13/14 D reg's !
Didn't see a Garda checkpoint or speed control van all weekend either ! Very much a case of "when the cat's away " ie under resourced Garda traffic division and city slickers who drive as if they're still on the motorway system !

The vast majority of that road is 60kmph for no good reason. I have driven that during a weekday morning to get to a client and I was fit to kill someone. 80kmph I could understand. Add to that, people driving along looking in to every open ditch, tractors, Nissan Micra's, Toyota Carina's, Toyota Avensis's, Nissan Qasquai's and you have a recipe for insanity.

My client told me they had an employee once that drove so slowly on that road back to galway, often his workmates would race to their cars at full tilt to get away before him.

It was explained to me as follows.

80kmph - country road with no footpath
60kmph - country road with the footpath

Utterly counter intuitive. Not sure what truth lies behind that.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

You get that sometimes with drivers who aren't used to the roads and presume there's nobody else on them because they're "down the country".

the merchant

I really hoped that when I clicked on this thread the OP would be regaling us with a fabulous tale from Palmersport or "The Ring" .... But alas it's another bad driving thread.

Zzzzz - we get it. Irish driving behaviour isn't great.

CiniO

Clifden to Galway is N road, so 100km/h speed limit applies.

BTW - what continuous white lines? That kind of stuff don't apply on that road. If you were to overtake only on broken lines, you wouldn't be able to overtake at all.
Those lines were painted without any consideration, so there is very little point in obeying them (at least not from safety point of view) - you might be perfectly safe to overtake on continuous lines there in some spots, and perfectly dangerous to do so on broken lines.

Woodville56

CiniO wrote: »

Clifden to Galway is N road, so 100km/h speed limit applies.

BTW - what continuous white lines? That kind of stuff don't apply on that road. If you were to overtake only on broken lines, you wouldn't be able to overtake at all.
Those lines were painted without any consideration, so there is very little point in obeying them (at least not from safety point of view) - you might be perfectly safe to overtake on continuous lines there in some spots, and perfectly dangerous to do so on broken lines.

What I'm reading across a number of responses to my original post is an apologia for breaking the current rules of the road , be they outdated or not !
The presence or absence of white line road markings and speed limits are no excuse for dangerous overtaking, tailgating, speeding and general careless driving and lack of consideration for other road users , irrespective of the status of the road , be it a primary or secondary routes . Motorists should allow for druving conditions on these rural routes and drive accordingly- it's not the Mi1 or M50 and drivers should realise that !!
It's all about respect and consideration for other road users really - if those who want to risk their own lives through reckless driving let them at it - as long as innocent fellow motorists don't become their victims . Speed limits and line markings are there for a purpose, whether some if us like it or not - sadly the Garda don't appear to be in a position of of a mind to enforce such directions these days !

CiniO

OSI wrote: »

For someone that's so adamant about the letter of the law in other threads, it's bizarre to see you say that the solid white lines are irrelevant just because you decide they are.

I was just trying to point out how situatuion looks like in this area, as I drive there a lot and I'm familiar with it.
In general driving in Connemara is much different to driving around Dublin
And even simple manouvers there like overtaking which might look dangerous to Dublin driver, are not necessery dangerous to Connemara driver.
Its probably different point of view on safety as well.
F.e. I often drive a 50 seater coach in that area and roads are so narrow that you are passing other vehicle sometimes by few inches at high speeds. So overtaking leaving less space to blind bend than uou would leave on straight wide road inDublin is also a norm.

Woodville56

CiniO wrote: »

I was just trying to point out how situatuion looks like in this area, as I drive there a lot and I'm familiar with it.
In general driving in Connemara is much different to driving around Dublin
And even simple manouvers there like overtaking which might look dangerous to Dublin driver, are not necessery dangerous to Connemara driver.
Its probably different point of view on safety as well.
F.e. I often drive a 50 seater coach in that area and roads are so narrow that you are passing other vehicle sometimes by few inches at high speeds. So overtaking leaving less space to blind bend than uou would leave on straight wide road inDublin is also a norm.

I'm not a city driver- most of my driving is in the countryside and as far as I know the same rules of the road apply in relation to speed limits and white line road markings nationwide, not to mention the tailgating and other shenanigans I've seen on these roads . And in Connemara or indeed on most windy continuous white line marked rural roads, driving a coach or any large vehicle at high speed with an overtaking distance of possibly a few inches is just plain reckless, irrespective of how slow the vehicle ahead is travelling !
Dublin drivers are a law unto themselves as far as I can see . I don't drive in the city very often but the impoliteness of some drivers there is quite revealing !
Example - 2 weeks ago in the Dublin 4 area I was in the right hand lane at a junction waiting for filter light to allow me turn right. As the light allowing traffic to go straight thru the junction in both directions turned green , a guy behind me (also in the right turn lane) driving a 4x4 132D reg started blowing his horn and gesticulating at me as if was blocking his way , even though I was indicating a right turn and in my correct lane waiting my green light . He eventually pulled out from behind me , making more signs as he pulled along side me and then proceeded to drive straight through the junction as his light was on orange ! I was tempted to pass his reg in to the Garda but I suppose rudeness isn't a crime !!

CiniO

Woodville56 wrote: »

. And in Connemara or indeed on most windy continuous white line marked rural roads, driving a coach or any large vehicle at high speed with an overtaking distance of possibly a few inches is just plain reckless, irrespective of how slow the vehicle ahead is travelling  !!

By passing by few inches I meant passing oncoming traffic. Not overtaking.

Woodville56

CiniO wrote: »

By passing by few inches I meant passing oncoming traffic. Not overtaking.

Apologies, misread your earlier posting. Thanks for clarifying !

SEPT 23 1989

I drove up and back from Dublin to Wexford yesterday and i did not see one cop car

i57dwun4yb1pt8

Woodville56 wrote: »

I'm not a city driver- most of my driving is
Example - 2 weeks ago in the Dublin 4 area I was in the right hand lane at a junction waiting for filter light to allow me turn right. As the light allowing traffic to go straight thru the junction in both directions turned green , a guy behind me (also in the right turn lane) driving a 4x4 132D reg started blowing his horn and gesticulating at me as if was blocking his way , even though I was indicating a right turn and in my correct lane waiting my green light . He eventually pulled out from behind me , making more signs as he pulled along side me and then proceeded to drive straight through the junction as his light was on orange ! I was tempted to pass his reg in to the Garda but I suppose rudeness isn't a crime !!

i assume on green you moved out from the line into the road area to turn when clear ? as oyu can turn on the green if the way is clear .

he might have been beeping you cos you didnt move out on the green.
which i would beep you for as well.

creedp

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

I drove up and back from Dublin to Wexford yesterday and i did not see one cop car

In contrast I was driving around Cork at the weekend and saw multiple cop cars monitoring speed and witnessed an unmarked car pulling a driver for overtaking on a continuous white line. On way back up the M8 Sunday evening saw cars monitoring speed at 2 different locations. While I was down there I got numerous reminders to watch my speed as there were speed checks everywhere!

Woodville56

DaDumTish wrote: »

i assume on green you moved out from the line into the road area to turn when clear ? as oyu can turn on the green if the way is clear .

he might have been beeping you cos you didnt move out on the green.
which i would beep you for as well.

Only problem is - were I do move out on green I would possibly be obstructing cars passing straight thru junction in opposite direction also on green and not knowing sequence of lights at the junction didn't want to cause log jam ie my exit route wasn't clear !! . Blowing horns indiscriminately and the nasty gesticulations are just plain rude and ignorant however you dress if up !
Who would be at more risk or causing nuisance if I had driven on to the middle of the road ? Not the yobbo in the 4 wheel drive , that's for sure , plain selfish ignorant and bad tempered !

biko

I've driven that road many times and many locals will fly down it, scary at times.
When you're in a new Merc, sure doesn't 120kmph feel like 70

paddyland

Woodville56 wrote: »

Only problem is - were I do move out on green I would possibly be obstructing cars passing straight thru junction in opposite direction also on green and not knowing sequence of lights at the junction didn't want to cause log jam ie my exit route wasn't clear !! . Blowing horns indiscriminately and the nasty gesticulations are just plain rude and ignorant however you dress if up !
Who would be at more risk or causing nuisance if I had driven on to the middle of the road ? Not the yobbo in the 4 wheel drive , that's for sure , plain selfish ignorant and bad tempered !

People constantly overtaking you, and blowing their horns while doing so... People trying to turn right behind you, and blowing their horns at you...

Seems to be a bit of a pattern here, doesn't there? "They're all out of step except my Johnnie..." Methinks you are the problem. If I am driving all the way from Clifden to Dublin, which I have done on occasion, there's no way I am going to sit behind you all the way to Galway at 50-60kph, simply because that is the limit of your observational or handling abilities.

Look in your mirror. If there is a long queue of cars behind you, and nothing in front, you might consider pulling in somewhere and letting them all pass safely. It is highly inconsiderate to expect an entire road of drivers to frustrate themselves for an hour and a half by driving at your mediocre speed.

H3llR4iser

paddyland wrote: »

Look in your mirror. If there is a long queue of cars behind you, and nothing in front, you might consider pulling in somewhere and letting them all pass safely. It is highly inconsiderate to expect an entire road of drivers to frustrate themselves for an hour and a half by driving at your mediocre speed.

But he's under the speed limit, man! That simple fact means he is entitled to act as a roadblock to the rest of the road going hemisphere

Woodville56 wrote: »

Only problem is - were I do move out on green I would possibly be obstructing cars passing straight thru junction in opposite direction also on green and not knowing sequence of lights at the junction didn't want to cause log jam ie my exit route wasn't clear !! .

Frankly I don't think that, in the situation you described, you did anything wrong - the 4x4 driver was in the wrong lane to begin with.
However, please know that on the "go straight" filter light, you are allowed to move to the center of the junction and wait for a gap in the oncoming traffic if you are to turn right; If there is enough space, of course.

I'm just saying this because I see this behaviour every day: most people simply have no idea about how to turn right; They are deathly afraid of entering yellow boxes (allowed to turn right) and, even more annoying, seem to think they're all driving an 18 wheeler as they move to the left of the road before turning.

whomitconcerns

H3llR4iser wrote: »

please know that on the "go straight" filter light, you are allowed to move to the center of the junction and wait for a gap in the oncoming traffic if you are to turn right; If there is enough space, of course.

I'm just saying this because I see this behaviour every day: most people simply have no idea about how to turn right; They are deathly afraid of entering yellow boxes (allowed to turn right) and, even more annoying, seem to think they're all driving an 18 wheeler as they move to the left of the road before turning.

Agree with you but for one point a go straight filter light does not entitle you to turn right if there is space. Only an all traffic green light does. And of course this is where they should have moved forward into box to prepare to turn right.

A go straight filter means if you are going to proceed straight ahead its ok to go. So right hand lane should remain at the light if turning right in that case.

ardmacha

whomitconcerns wrote: »

And of course this is where they should have moved forward into box to prepare to turn right.

No. This moving forward into the box assumes that the right turn light follows the straight ahead. If this is not the case you'd be in the middle of the box obstructing traffic coming across the junction.

whomitconcerns

ardmacha wrote: »

No. This moving forward into the box assumes that the right turn light follows the straight ahead. If this is not the case you'd be in the middle of the box obstructing traffic coming across the junction.

Yes, but the right filter should follow the all traffic green. It makes no sense for it to be before it. So you should not end up in the box without a filter after an all green light

corktina

why does it make no sense? There could be a matching green right filter for traffic coming the other way.

whomitconcerns

corktina wrote: »

why does it make no sense? There could be a matching green right filter for traffic coming the other way.

Thats true..hadnt thought of an opposing filter light!!

H3llR4iser

ardmacha wrote: »

No. This moving forward into the box assumes that the right turn light follows the straight ahead. If this is not the case you'd be in the middle of the box obstructing traffic coming across the junction.

corktina wrote: »

why does it make no sense? There could be a matching green right filter for traffic coming the other way.

whomitconcerns wrote: »

Thats true..hadnt thought of an opposing filter light!!

All wrong. When there is a "right turn" filter light, it will always follow the "straight on" light, with a red light on the opposite direction. It's a sequence rule, just like "amber comes before red".

The "turn right" filter light simply means that oncoming traffic has a red light - it's there to help smooth the traffic flow in the junction, and it's not necessary to wait for it to light up.

But don't take my word for it:

"If you wish to turn right at a set of traffic lights that has an arrow to the right,
drive into the junction when you see a green light, taking care not to block any
oncoming traffic. Then, when it is safe, finish your turn. You should only wait for the filter arrow for turning right when you are in the junction and if it would be dangerous to finish your turn before the filter light appears"

Quoted from:
http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-of-the-road-eng.pdf

Section 7.

corktina

Yes but that's for when there is a full green light , not for when there is a straight on filter arrow. It doesn't mean you can turn without the filter arrow in this instance although it does if it's a full green. I often get frustrated at people who won't turn until the arrow lights at a full-grenn junction (Mallow Bridge for instance turning right into Park Road

H3llR4iser

corktina wrote: »

Yes but that's for when there is a full green light , not for when there is a straight on filter arrow. It doesn't mean you can turn without the filter arrow in this instance although it does if it's a full green. I often get frustrated at people who won't turn until the arrow lights at a full-grenn junction (Mallow Bridge for instance turning right into Park Road

"when you see A green light" - which means regardless if it's "straight on" or "full green". As a matter of fact, I can't find any examples in the ROR where there is a "straight on" and a "right" filter arrow at the same time. It's quite possible that such a light should not exist (which doesn't they don't actually exist, a wrong assembly is possible).

ardmacha

H3llR4iser wrote: »

"when you see A green light" - which means regardless if it's "straight on" or "full green". As a matter of fact, I can't find any examples in the ROR where there is a "straight on" and a "right" filter arrow at the same time. It's quite possible that such a light should not exist (which doesn't they don't actually exist, a wrong assembly is possible).

The ROR is misleading. A green light is not enoug, there could be a left turn light for instance and no guarantee that the right arrow would be after that.

As Cortina says an unrestricted green light allows you move into the junction, as you can turn in this case without waiting for an arrow. A straight ahead arrow does not.

I often get frustrated at people who won't turn until the arrow lights at a full-grenn junction (Mallow Bridge for instance turning right into Park Road

Some people don't seem to know the difference.

CiniO

While not the same, but in last few weeks I've seen two occasions in two different spots where people intending to turn left on traffic lights junctions, were waiting there on green light.
In short - there is a traffic lights, which shows red light, and green arrow to the left, allowing people to turn left, during red light.
Then arrow goes out, and lights change from red to green.
And driver who was just going to turn left, waits there on left turning lane for the arrow to come back, even though there is a green light for everyone.
When I beeped the horn they got confused, and eventually went for it, but gesticulated showing me the traffic lights showing green. Bit ridiculous.

Here's the video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdNxy6hWdeo

Sheldons Brain

CiniO wrote: »

When I beeped the horn they got confused, and eventually went for it, but gesticulated showing me the traffic lights showing green. Bit ridiculous.

As this thread shows and two posts up states, some people are not clear on the difference between a green ball and a green arrow on a traffic light.

cython

H3llR4iser wrote: »

"when you see A green light" - which means regardless if it's "straight on" or "full green". As a matter of fact, I can't find any examples in the ROR where there is a "straight on" and a "right" filter arrow at the same time. It's quite possible that such a light should not exist (which doesn't they don't actually exist, a wrong assembly is possible).

The ROTR actually explains what can be done under a "green light", and then proceeds to address the meaning of a "green arrow" ("that you may move on in the direction of the arrow, assuming it is safe and the way is clear, even if a red light is also showing"). To me that suggests they regard them as separate signals, and as such green light is the full circle. Certainly turning right is not moving in the direction of a straight on arrow!!!

H3llR4iser

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

As this thread shows and two posts up states, some people are not clear on the difference between a green ball and a green arrow on a traffic light.

cython wrote: »

The ROTR actually explains what can be done under a "green light", and then proceeds to address the meaning of a "green arrow" ("that you may move on in the direction of the arrow, assuming it is safe and the way is clear, even if a red light is also showing"). To me that suggests they regard them as separate signals, and as such green light is the full circle. Certainly turning right is not moving in the direction of a straight on arrow!!!

"If you wish to turn right at a set of traffic lights that has an arrow to the right, drive into the junction when you see a green light, taking care not to block any oncoming traffic. Then, when it is safe, finish your turn. You should only wait for the filter arrow for turning right when you are in the junction and if it would be dangerous to finish your turn before the filter light appears"

This is not open to any type of interpretation, is absolutely crystal clear. We are talking "right filter light" here; A filter light only exists where there is a "full green", do not get confused with setups where each lane has its own traffic light as it's not the same thing - in that case the "greens" have an arrow painted on to help motorists understand the signal better, but are separate things as each lane also has its own red.

cython

H3llR4iser wrote: »

"If you wish to turn right at a set of traffic lights that has an arrow to the right, drive into the junction when you see a green light, taking care not to block any oncoming traffic. Then, when it is safe, finish your turn. You should only wait for the filter arrow for turning right when you are in the junction and if it would be dangerous to finish your turn before the filter light appears"

This is not open to any type of interpretation, is absolutely crystal clear. We are talking "right filter light" here; A filter light only exists where there is a "full green", do not get confused with setups where each lane has its own traffic light as it's not the same thing - in that case the "greens" have an arrow painted on to help motorists understand the signal better, but are separate things as each lane also has its own red.

Well since the ROTR are an interpretation in themselves of SIs, let's take a look at a :

13.—(1) Subject to paragraph (4) of this bye-law, a driver facing a traffic light lamp which shows a red light shall not proceed beyond the stop line at that light or, if there is no such stop line, beyond that light.


(2) A driver facing a traffic light lamp which shows an amber light while no other traffic light lamp (immediately above or below) shows any light, shall not proceed beyond the stop line at that light (or, if there is no such stop line, beyond the light) save when the vehicle is so close to the stop line when the amber light shows that the vehicle cannot safely be halted before crossing the stop line.


(3) A driver facing a traffic light lamp which shows a green light (other than a green arrow) may, in accordance with these bye-laws, proceed past that light.

In turn, a 2012 SI again distinguishes between a "green light" and a green "directional arrow", and the linked act describes their meanings differently:

(4) A driver facing a traffic light lamp which shows a lighted green arrow may, in accordance with these bye-laws, proceed in the direction indicated by the arrow, notwithstanding that another traffic light lamp facing the driver shows a red light.

So turning right is not "in the direction of" a straight arrow (definitely not open to interpretation!), and your own interpretation is squirrelling a potentially vague interpretation of the reasonably clear actual legal directive, so it seems that you have found that it is open to (mis!)interpretation all on your own!

H3llR4iser

cython wrote: »

Well since the ROTR are an interpretation in themselves of SIs, let's take a look at a :


In turn, a 2012 SI again distinguishes between a "green light" and a green "directional arrow", and the linked act describes their meanings differently:

So turning right is not "in the direction of" a straight arrow (definitely not open to interpretation!), and your own interpretation is squirrelling a potentially vague interpretation of the reasonably clear actual legal directive, so it seems that you have found that it is open to (mis!)interpretation all on your own!

Just to better explain what I was saying, because it is abundantly clear I didn't do so well:

O
O
O >

Means proceed, can turn right, no need to wait on the arrow but give way to incoming traffic as normal. A tonne of drivers (at least in Cork) don't understand this. They wait for the green arrow.

O
O
O >
Means proceed, you can turn right, traffic on the opposite direction has red light (but be careful anyway);

O O
O O
^ >
Is the case where your example applies. In this case, each lane literally has its own light, and the arrows are there to help motorists identify which one to observe, depending on their intentions.

This situation:

O
O
^>

Frankly I've never seen this, everywhere there is a "straight only" light, there's also a full light for the turn right direction. It would still follow the procedure you indicated, if it existed anywhere (possible).