Off Spec fire windows

Mirka · 20-04-2014 12:12pm #1

I am thinking of buying a second hand house in Ireland, built in 2006 (date on windows 2007) and my engineer says 2 windows do not comply with 2006 Part B Fire Regs.

I would like to hear what are other Boards.ie members thoughts in relation to this.... Should I pull out of the sale?? What are the chances of repercussions when I try to resell the property?? Any Advice would be welcome as I am at the top of my budget for the purchase price and had not factored in new window costs when negotiating the sale price of the house.
I don't want to lose the house by irritating the vendor to the point he tells me to take a hike!
I can live with the small difference in window opening sizes but how big a problem is this when it is time to resell??

Any useful opinions welcome.

sydthebeat · 20-04-2014 3:52pm

Surely he Told you what the actual issue with the Windows is?

Its quite possible the build didn't have to comply with 2006 regs, but the 1997 regs instead.

Mirka · 20-04-2014 4:18pm

Thanks for your reply
My engineer thinks these two windows in habitable rooms do not meet 2006 spec. for fire escape openings, 2 in downstairs bedrooms because the '' clear opening space'' is too small.
Which I believe should be .33m.sq. at least. I am not to sure exactly what the 1997 regs insisted on but as far as I can see they are not really less onerous.

Also two bedrooms upstairs with velux are too high from floor level but this I believe can be gotten over by placing step below the opening to the bottom of velux?

4Sticks · 20-04-2014 4:34pm

Keep looking. Why are you even entertaining this risk ? You don't have a windows problem you have a fire safety problem.

sydthebeat · 20-04-2014 5:07pm

Mirka wrote: »

Thanks for your reply
My engineer thinks these two windows in habitable rooms do not meet 2006 spec. for fire escape openings, 2 in downstairs bedrooms because the '' clear opening space'' is too small.
Which I believe should be .33m.sq. at least. I am not to sure exactly what the 1997 regs insisted on but as far as I can see they are not really less onerous.

Also two bedrooms upstairs with velux are too high from floor level but this I believe can be gotten over by placing step below the opening to the bottom of velux?

Both of those reasons would convince me to walk away from that sale. Not enough clear opening is a dangerous situation.

If they could not get the Windows right I wonder what else they didn't get right. ... especially works you cannot see.

That's rhetorical by the way

Mirka · 20-04-2014 5:14pm

Believe me I have searched and searched for half decent properties in the area and this is the best I can find in order to be near to work and meets my budget! Do you think this is presenting a major problem when houses go for sale?? Seems to me there are many many houses that are not meeting the regs. Is it simply a case of buyer beware and move on.... this is easier said then done.
I appreciate your comments. Do you think I should try and re negotiate the final price and look to replace problem windows?? Or perhaps have seller replace them with windows that meet the spec.??

Thanks again.

sydthebeat · 20-04-2014 5:49pm

Mirka wrote: »

Believe me I have searched and searched for half decent properties in the area and this is the best I can find in order to be near to work and meets my budget! Do you think this is presenting a major problem when houses go for sale?? Seems to me there are many many houses that are not meeting the regs. Is it simply a case of buyer beware and move on.... this is easier said then done.
I appreciate your comments. Do you think I should try and re negotiate the final price and look to replace problem windows?? Or perhaps have seller replace them with windows that meet the spec.??

Thanks again.

You certainly could bring this non compliance issue up with the vendor and look for the cost to be taken off. I can't see any vendor forking out the cost of replacement.

Like a car being sold without nct, the asking price will be reduced.

Mirka · 20-04-2014 6:09pm

So it would seem you believe I should move on or be prepared to foot the cost of replacement windows.

I guess that confirms it then.

Thank You for taking the time to reply.

galwaytt · 20-04-2014 6:33pm

Mirka wrote: »

So it would seem you believe I should move on or be prepared to foot the cost of replacement windows.

I guess that confirms it then.

Thank You for taking the time to reply.

I think the opposite. If the only issue is two windows I think that's a very short list to fix and it could be remiss to pass on a property if it ticks all the other boxes.

Windows can be fixed. Location of a house. .. Not so much !

sydthebeat · 20-04-2014 6:36pm

I will repeat, if they couldn't get the Windows within regulation, what else could they not do properly. .....

Mirka · 20-04-2014 10:01pm

Maybe GalwayTT has a point, although at least three windows would need to changed to keep the front windows divided in the the same proportions. I will arrange for another site visit next week, get exact measurements, try to get some quotes for windows and then try to negotiate with the vendor.
I will keep you posted with any update thanks a mill. guys.

If you think of anything please let me know.

galwaytt · 20-04-2014 10:09pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

I will repeat, if they couldn't get the Windows within regulation, what else could they not do properly. .....

What's the basis for assuming anything is amiss outside of the windows ? You're assuming lots. The windows could be as-is based purely on aesthetics.

Mirka · 20-04-2014 10:37pm

I have asked for a full written report from my engineer and hope to have it this coming week....If there are any other major identifiable structural problems I would say I would already know from his verbal report. He tells me one window is 10 cm. H and 30 cm. W < they should be... not much but still outside the regs.

Any idea on how much it would cost to replace 2x10 ft. and 3.5 ft. high windows with two openings. and one window 4.5 ft.W x 4ft.H split with one opening?? Sizes are approximate. Ballpark estimate is fine for now if you have it. (Munster Joinery windows)

4Sticks · 20-04-2014 10:49pm

Mirka wrote: »

how big a problem is this when it is time to resell??

None. If you find someone like yourself to sell to.

4Sticks · 20-04-2014 10:59pm

galwaytt wrote: »

What's the basis for assuming anything is amiss outside of the windows ? You're assuming lots. The windows could be as-is based purely on aesthetics.

If whoever built the house chose aesthetics over fire safety - then you would assume that all other decisions about the build were made

a) wisely
b) foolishly

(you can phone a friend)

galwaytt · 21-04-2014 11:26am

4Sticks wrote: »

If whoever built the house chose aesthetics over fire safety - then you would assume that all other decisions about the build were made

a) wisely
b) foolishly

(you can phone a friend)

Still with the assumptions. Better to deal in facts.

4Sticks · 21-04-2014 11:28am

galwaytt wrote: »

Better to deal in facts.

Indeed . What the internet is for.

4Sticks · 21-04-2014 3:44pm

Selfbuilder14 · 21-04-2014 9:49pm

Obviously fire,safety needs to be taken very seriously but if the windows can be changed easily and if it is the house you want as long as everything else is a ok then go for it and ask to have the cost taken off the,asking price. People like to scare monger.

Hope it all goes,well for you

sydthebeat · 21-04-2014 9:58pm

Selfbuilder14 wrote: »

Obviously fire,safety needs to be taken very seriously but if the windows can be changed easily and if it is the house you want as long as everything else is a ok then go for it and ask to have the cost taken off the,asking price. People like to scare monger.

Hope it all goes,well for you

And they are supposed to know "everything else is ok" by.......???? Divining maybe? ?

Mirka · 22-04-2014 7:19am

Hi Guys,

I am taking everything seriously and am grateful for comments. Balance in everything though- maybe I can rectify the major issue. I will post update after report from surveyor.
Thanks to all.

galwaytt · 22-04-2014 2:28pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

And they are supposed to know "everything else is ok" by.......???? Divining maybe? ?

...surely the same issue applies to all surveying: no-one knocks down walls, for instance, to see what they're made of..........or floors.

Taking your comment on board, short of doing so, are all surveys bunkum, then ???

sydthebeat · 22-04-2014 3:18pm

galwaytt wrote: »

...surely the same issue applies to all surveying: no-one knocks down walls, for instance, to see what they're made of..........or floors.

Taking your comment on board, short of doing so, are all surveys bunkum, then ???

The point here is that there is a clear and obvious non compliance with a highly significant building regulation, a regulation which had been in place, and widely known, for over 10 years before this build.

If the builder of this dwelling has gotten this issue wrong, then that screams, to me, that there is most probably a whole lot more wrong throughout the build, things that are unseen.

The OP hasnt stated whether there is a cert of compliance on the build but either way, there is either none... showing no professional input into the build, or there is one, which is worse, as it shows a level of incompetence that is downright dangerous.

On all visual pre purchase surveys, there is ALWAYS the Caveat Emptor.
These surveys are done to find these exact issues.
The purpose of these surveys is to help the buyer make the decision to buy or not, they are not there to make excuses for the builder.
When i do these surveys i would always have a conclusion paragraph.
If i was the surveyor on this dwelling, i would be recommending the OP not to purchase because the weight of probability falls down on the side of there being more non compliant issues hidden.

Its a buyers market out there currently, dont put all your bets on the lame duck.

Mirka · 22-04-2014 6:03pm

I believe there is a cert of compliance which states that the build ''substantially'' conforms to the planning regs.

I do think this is common as the word '' substantially'' in effect lets the engineer off the hook if it came to litigation. It does smack of the engineer attempting to satisfy his client the builder.
Rather then do what he should do to protect the purchaser.

There does however appear to be no redress against the builder... except not to purchase if renegotiating is unsuccessful.

Meanwhile the certifying surveyor pockets the cash for his services and walks away smiling.
So much for professionalism and where are the Building inspectors..... probably away on a Jolly outing to see the building regs. in Dubai or Sun City!
As with all things in Ireland we have great laws but no one enforces them and it is the purchaser in this case who loses out.

I heard today that the venting for septic tank is not correct and the percolation area does not have an inspection chamber. Also my Engineer is not sure what size the chambers are for all the toilets in the house.... there are 5 toilets. Any idea what the spec is on septic tanks for 5 toilets?????
How much in your opinion would it take to rectify these issues with the septic tank.
All opinions welcome.

Cheers Guys

sydthebeat · 22-04-2014 6:07pm

Mirka wrote: »

I believe there is a cert of compliance which states that the build ''substantially'' conforms to the planning regs.

I do think this is common as the word '' substantially'' in effect lets the engineer off the hook if it came to litigation. It does smack of the engineer attempting to satisfy his client the builder.
Rather then do what he should do to protect the purchaser.

There does however appear to be no redress against the builder... except not to purchase if renegotiating is unsuccessful.

Meanwhile the certifying surveyor pockets the cash for his services and walks away smiling.
So much for professionalism and where are the Building inspectors..... probably away on a Jolly outing to see the building regs. in Dubai or Sun City!
As with all things in Ireland we have great laws but no one enforces them and it is the purchaser in this case who loses out.

... and will continue to be as such....

i would certainly argue against the use of the word "substantially" here. The fire escape regulations are simply black and white and what you have described is in no way "substantially" in compliance but rather definitely not in compliance.

If this was build by a builder for speculative sale, id be even MORE worried about whats hidden!!!!
Builders know where the can cut corners in a specification.

Mirka · 22-04-2014 6:14pm

I have been led to believe this house was built for the builders Son??????
No real way to verify this. I can say the house is in the name of the Builders Son and that the Son was successful in obtaining a mortgage on the property.

I really thought all these issues were addressed by an independent Surveyor by the Lending Institution BEFORE granting a Mortgage!!
I mean how bad can the build be if the lending institution sees fit to grant a mortgage?

Mirka · 22-04-2014 6:21pm

I heard today that the venting for septic tank is not correct and the percolation area does not have an inspection chamber. Also my Engineer is not sure what size the chambers are for all the toilets in the house.... there are 5 toilets. Any idea what the spec is on septic tanks for 5 toilets?????
How much in your opinion would it take to rectify these issues with the septic tank.
All opinions welcome.

galwaytt · 22-04-2014 7:10pm

Mirka wrote: »

I really thought all these issues were addressed by an independent Surveyor by the Lending Institution BEFORE granting a Mortgage!!
I mean how bad can the build be if the lending institution sees fit to grant a mortgage?

Alas and alack, but isn't that what got this country into the current pickle ??

sydthebeat · 22-04-2014 7:23pm

Mirka wrote: »

I really thought all these issues were addressed by an independent Surveyor by the Lending Institution BEFORE granting a Mortgage!!
I mean how bad can the build be if the lending institution sees fit to grant a mortgage?

i dont know if you have been following all the recent turmoil in regards to the building regulation control system in ireland but:

1. ireland has a system where the "independent Surveyor" is not independent at all, but rather being paid buy the person who requires the certification..... impartial and independence doesnt exist in a self certification system.

2. those assigned with the power to enforce the building regulations (local authority building control officers) simply do not, when it comes to private individuals.

3. the recent change to the legislation actually enshrines this 'self certification' solidly in our laws. It also completely absolves those with the power to enforce the regs from any culpability when it comes to non enforcement.... if it wasnt so serious it would be hilarious.

4. the lending institutions have been shown to not give a damn about the quality of product they lend money towards... they will always get bailed out if the proverbial hits the fan.. wont they

and after all that joe citizen like your self is offered these properties for you to make the single biggest spend of your life on.

Ill say one thing for you, youve got a good engineer working on your behalf

4Sticks · 22-04-2014 10:26pm

Selfbuilder14 wrote: »

People like to scare monger.

I lost friends in the Stardust fire in 1981.

Be scared of fire.

4Sticks · 22-04-2014 10:36pm

Mirka wrote: »

I mean how bad can the build be if the lending institution sees fit to grant a mortgage?

That is no gaurentee of build quality at all. Even when expelled from Priorty Hall the occupants had to pay their mortgages month in month out.

What if lenders were by legilislation held accountable foe goods purchased ? Sure that would be mad

Selfbuilder14 · 23-04-2014 10:45am

4Sticks wrote: »

I lost friends in the Stardust fire in 1981.

Be scared of fire.

Sorry for your loss yes obviously windows always have to be designed to be used as an exit. All I meant was if windows can easily be changed to meet regulations then this is an option. Certainly not that they should buy if unsafe.

Mirka · 23-04-2014 1:25pm

Still waiting on full written report. Dear Oh Dear - What to do.....

4Sticks · 23-04-2014 2:00pm

Wait. You are in the driving seat not the seller.

galwaytt · 24-04-2014 8:54pm

Mirka wrote: »

Still waiting on full written report. Dear Oh Dear - What to do.....

Chill. Wait. Relax.

The house isn't going anywhere. .

Mirka · 25-04-2014 1:44pm

Thanks Guys,
I should know more tomorrow as I am promised survey report via email and then I think I can formulate my response to vendor.... but I do hope something can be worked out. I am at my wits end for a number of months on the internet searching every day.

I am keeping my fingers crossed I can make this one work as I have chased at least 4 other properties and for various reasons they did not work out.
Will post after I read report.

fclauson · 27-04-2014 6:23am

Mirka wrote: »

I heard today that the venting for septic tank is not correct and the percolation area does not have an inspection chamber. Also my Engineer is not sure what size the chambers are for all the toilets in the house.... there are 5 toilets. Any idea what the spec is on septic tanks for 5 toilets?????
How much in your opinion would it take to rectify these issues with the septic tank.
All opinions welcome.

bed time reading https://www.epa.ie/pubs/advice/water/wastewater/code%20of%20practice%20for%20single%20houses/#.U1yiOaNOOCg

Mirka · 27-04-2014 4:20pm

Thanks for the EPA requirements, seems difficult to be sure all conditions have been complied with but my opinion is that the Council should insist on all tests being done and certification to be sure the right system is used on a particular site. BEFORE granting permission.

Why do I wonder about the diligence of the Council's in Ireland?????

Still no report from the Surveyor. Will update when I get it.

Thanks to all.

greasepalm · 27-04-2014 4:41pm

i am in similar situation and got a number of double glazed windows and the one on stairs is a fully open exit grand for getting out onto garage roof to clean it,also want to get another bedroom fitted with exit escape but dont know correct terminology to google for please.

fclauson · 27-04-2014 5:43pm

read http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,1640,en.pdf

and I this was also interesting
http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=17&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CKIBEBYwEA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.education.ie%2Fen%2FSchool-Design%2FDesign-Guidance%2Fbu_tgd_021_1_doc.doc&ei=CEFdU-TtNoaP7AbHroHABw&usg=AFQjCNFIInhsDz-F9BOOQBh45fycNCcb3g&sig2=nIdVomFJQ_dh4qClG7A-3A

Mirka · 29-04-2014 3:44pm

Hi Guys,
At long last I got the surveyors report and guess what???
The windows are fine - turns out my Surveyor who is just back from working abroad for a number of years was working off the 1997 regs when he should hgave applied the 2006 regs!!!!

Actually, it surprises me that the 2006 regs are less onerous then the 1997 Regs.
My only comment left on this subject is that don't they give Firemen and Crews an AXE or something to assist with gaining speedy entry. If quick entry / exit is something I should always be aware of - maybe I should sleep with windows open. Eh! Don't think so!!!!
All is well that ends well in this case Thank God!

Seriously though, Fire is a very serious issue and must be taken seriously.
I feel I have wasted everyone's time and am a bit embarrassed.
But I am very Grateful for the time and suggestions to all who posted. Thank You all!

The percolation issue is to be resolved by the vendor and certified by the Supervising Engineer who was working on the property as it was being built.

A certificate for Radon sump and barrier installation has yet to be supplied but I have seen a copy of a receipt from the surveyor for that address? I await Certificate.

Nearly all other issues are of a minor nature and nothing I cannot live with or do myself over time.

Great to have this forum with people who know their stuff!

Selfbuilder14 · 30-04-2014 3:23pm

Mirka wrote: »

Hi Guys,
At long last I got the surveyors report and guess what???
The windows are fine - turns out my Surveyor who is just back from working abroad for a number of years was working off the 1997 regs when he should hgave applied the 2006 regs!!!!

Actually, it surprises me that the 2006 regs are less onerous then the 1997 Regs.
My only comment left on this subject is that don't they give Firemen and Crews an AXE or something to assist with gaining speedy entry. If quick entry / exit is something I should always be aware of - maybe I should sleep with windows open. Eh! Don't think so!!!!
All is well that ends well in this case Thank God!

Seriously though, Fire is a very serious issue and must be taken seriously.
I feel I have wasted everyone's time and am a bit embarrassed.
But I am very Grateful for the time and suggestions to all who posted. Thank You all!

The percolation issue is to be resolved by the vendor and certified by the Supervising Engineer who was working on the property as it was being built.

A certificate for Radon sump and barrier installation has yet to be supplied but I have seen a copy of a receipt from the surveyor for that address? I await Certificate.

Nearly all other issues are of a minor nature and nothing I cannot live with or do myself over time.

Great to have this forum with people who know their stuff!

Glad it has,all worked out favourably. Enjoy your new,home

Off Spec fire windows

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