Very confused

LegacyUser · 15-04-2014 7:03pm #1

I'm having a hard time trying to figure out something and looking for some external prospective.

I've been going out with my gf for the last 9+ years. I'm from Cork, and she is from Dublin, and both of us live there. We're both in our mid 30s. We also don't live together, but are planning on it. No kids together, and no plans for kids or marriage. I have a daughter (14) from a previous relationship, and I am still in contact with my ex-gf.

Recently, we've been having problems which ended up in a large argument last week, and we've barely spoken for 10 days while I try and figure out where I would like the relationship to go.

Basically, the fight came down to the fact that I have my daughter. My gf feels that I should only take my DD when the court order says I should (i.e. on Saturdays for about 10 hours, and every 4th weekend). I should also only take calls from her once a week, and only communicate with her mother by email or solicitors' letters.

I feel that I should be able talk to my DD either when I want to, or when she wants to (her - daughter's - mother feels the same way). I also feel that I should be able to take my daughter when I feel like it (within reason of school, holidays, other commitments). Part of the argument was that I had thought to take my daughter for a few days over Easter (as she was off, it was her b-day, and I am free). I wasn't due to see the gf during this time (never do on the days in question), and it sparked a large argument.

I think that part of the issue could also be the fact that my ex-gf tends to ring me about once a day, to discuss things to do with my daughter. If I don't answer, she will ring constantly until I do answer. This causes massive unease and disquiet with my gf, and it does, sometimes, feel that my ex still dominates our relation. I should point out that neither myself nor my ex-gf have any feelings for each other, and were only together for the sake of our daughter, and give her a stable upbringing for the first number of years of her life.

This entire argument has led me to question whether we should be together or not. She is my best friend, and normally we get on well together. However, this argument has made me question whether I want to stay in this relationship. I would like certain things from a LTR, such as marriage and kids. The gf, on the other hand, wants to live together, but no marriage or kids (she has personal/family reasons for not wanting either).

I'm very confused as to where to go. I'm normally very logical, but at the moment I'm conflicted between my head and heart.

Sorry for the long post.

Tokyo · 15-04-2014 7:51pm

Hey OP,

from reading your post there seems to be two separate issues at hand:

Your partner feels that you spend too much time with your daughter.
Your partner doesn't like the fact that your ex contacts you so regularly.

For me, the first one is a no-brainer - your daughter has been in your life since the day your girlfriend met you, and she needs to understand that you are a father and your child is a priority for you. If you had sole custody and your ex wasn't in her life you would have her all the time. I can understand a little frustration if you have made plans and they have to be altered because of your daughter, and of course you can work on being more creative with your time, but your girlfriend isn't being very realistic about dating someone with a child. To be honest, the fact that she is trying to force you to only see your daughter on court mandated days, and only take calls once a week makes her sound childish and selfish and if she can't tolerate a man spending time with his daughter then she should find someone that doesn't have children.

The other issue is a bit trickier, because your girlfriend does have a point with regards to your ex, and the frequency in which she contacts you. While it's good that you and your ex have an amicable relationship for the sake of your daughter, I can't imagine any scenario where she absolutely has to talk to you every day. It sounds more like she uses you as a sounding board to vent, than an actual need to discuss your daughter, and seems to be a very dominating force in your life. Of course your girlfriend's suggestion that you only communicate with your ex by email or solicitors' letters is ludicrous, but she is right in saying that the communication should be cut down somewhat, and I think that you should talk to your ex and let her know that while you'll always be available for your child, it's not possible to be there at her beck and call when she feels the need to vent. This time could be better spent with your girlfriend, and may appease her worries somewhat.

It sounds like you're a wonderful father to your daughter, and she's lucky to have you in her life.

Karen8 · 15-04-2014 8:09pm

I have been there (your gf's situation) and It was tough. I dont envy her. As I see it now, breaking up was the only option cause I just couldn't handle that situation well, I didn't love the child as my own, and wanted to spend time with my OH rather than him and his child. Breaking up was the only option for us, I do genuinely believe we all three feel happier now.
As for your gf calling till you answer the phone, does it happen for trivial things, or something really important?
And do you really don't want marriage and kids in future, cause the beginning of your post is a bit different to what you wrote at the end. Are you honest to yourself?

LegacyUser · 15-04-2014 8:21pm

What I maybe should have said is that there are no plans for kids or marriage. However, I think I would like to have another child (or two), while she doesn't like or want kids. I don't think my gf has seen my daughter since last summer, and shows no intention of wanting to change the situation.

Marriage would be nice, but not as big a deal.

Tokyo · 15-04-2014 8:28pm

OP, I've taken the liberty of removing the txtspk from both of your posts. DD, DS, DH and other txtspk is not permitted on this forum, as it makes posts difficult to read for some users.

Regards,
Mike

Tasden · 15-04-2014 8:43pm

Civ wrote: »

What I maybe should have said is that there are no plans for kids or marriage. However, I think I would like to have another child (or two), while she doesn't like or want kids. I don't think my gf has seen my daughter since last summer, and shows no intention of wanting to change the situation.

Marriage would be nice, but not as big a deal.

If this woman becomes your wife or lives with you what kind of relationship does she intend to have with your daughter when she barely wants YOU to have a relationship with the child?

I don't think the issue of your child and your ex is even the main thing here anyway tbh, she doesn't want kids and you do. And she doesn't want you spending time with the child you already have.

I don't see how you can be in love with someone who doesn't encourage and facilitate your relationship with your child. She's actively discouraging it.

Chara1001 · 15-04-2014 9:04pm

If you definitely want children and your girlfriend definitely doesn't, you guys can't meet in the middle about that. No matter what scenario, one person gets everything they want while the other gets nothing.
9 years is a really long time, have you had this discussion much before now? If your girlfriend is completely certain that she doesn't want marriage and/ or kids, can you really be ok with that? It seems to me that you have some very serious thinking to do.

Regarding the issue of your daughter- yes i agree completely your daughter should be able to speak to you when she needs to- and vice versa, NOT at a set hour or so a week that your girlfriend allows.
However, I don't think your ex needs to be on the phone to you every single day to talk about your daughter, that seems way over the top. I'm a single mum, so I need to sometimes speak to my ex about our child, but far far less than you.

You sound like you and your ex have a pretty good relationship, and possibly got into the habit of talking so frequently. So I can see your girlfriends issue here, but then again you've been together 9 years and your daughter has been in your life much longer- she sounds quite insecure in her relationship and i find it strange that she's trying to prevent you from having contact with your daughter. It's not good at all

MagicMarker · 15-04-2014 9:19pm

You're together nearly 10 years, you're mid 30's, you don't live together, you don't have kids, you're not engaged and from the sounds of it none of this is even in the pipeline.

She doesn't want kids, you do. She doesn't want you to spend as much time with your daughter, obviously you do.

I have to ask, why are you together? I can't see how you can continue as you are, unless you're prepared to sacrifice having more kids? And it doesn't sound like she's at all interested in your daughter, which, after 9 years, is shocking.

This won't end well unfortunately.

Tasden · 15-04-2014 9:29pm

Also, if she was to change her mind and you did end up having kids together, your child would be her child/children's sibling, is she still going to limit interactions to Saturdays and scheduled phone calls when her kids want to be with their sibling, and your child from the previous relationship is feeling cast aside for the new children??

It may seem like a hypothetical question but if you're seriously considering a future that involves kids with her then it needs to be considered if she's acting this way now when its only you and your child.

Merkin · 15-04-2014 9:39pm

I can't in all honesty see why you're with this person? Genuinely. You sound totally incompatible and with two vastly different point of views on some very fundamental issues.

I'd be less than enamoured by the fact she is not supportive of your relationship with your child also, it doesn't bode well.

Can you honestly envisage any kind of future with this woman?

jimd2 · 15-04-2014 9:50pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

You're together nearly 10 years, you're mid 30's, you don't live together, you don't have kids, you're not engaged and from the sounds of it none of this is even in the pipeline.

She doesn't want kids, you do. She doesn't want you to spend as much time with your daughter, obviously you do.

I have to ask, why are you together? I can't see how you can continue as you are, unless you're prepared to sacrifice having more kids? And it doesn't sound like she's at all interested in your daughter, which, after 9 years, is shocking.

This won't end well unfortunately.

I agree, well said.

Sleepless and Manic · 15-04-2014 11:41pm

Civ wrote: »

I think that part of the issue could also be the fact that my ex-gf tends to ring me about once a day, to discuss things to do with my daughter.

This is what jumped out at me.

Every day? And you've been apart for nine plus years? She calls you every day to talk about "things" to do with your daughter? And if she doesnt get you she just keeps ringing?

It does sound a little dodgy, how long do these discussions usually take? Are they at random times of the day?

I can see why that would cause unease with your GF.

Sleepless and Manic · 15-04-2014 11:57pm

Chara1001 wrote: »

However, I don't think your ex needs to be on the phone to you every single day to talk about your daughter, that seems way over the top. I'm a single mum, so I need to sometimes speak to my ex about our child, but far far less than you.

I think thats probably the core of the problem right there. I'm sure his GF wouldn't object to the daughter calling anytime she likes.

Its the Ex being clingy and using the daughter as an excuse thats really the problem. ANd its escalated to appear as though the GF is obstructing his relationship with his daughter.

I think this is all an Ex GF vs current GF battle.

Does the Ex have a current relationship? I'm guess not?

Eeden · 16-04-2014 12:02am

Sleepless and Manic wrote: »

This is what jumped out at me.

Every day? And you've been apart for nine plus years? She calls you every day to talk about "things" to do with your daughter? And if she doesnt get you she just keeps ringing?

It does sound a little dodgy, how long do these discussions usually take? Are they at random times of the day?

I can see why that would cause unease with your GF.

This is not one bit dodgy. If you have a child, the child should be your priority. If you can get on well with your ex, that just makes everything better for your child.

I have three children with my ex, we speak on the phone or see each other most days.

When your kids get to teenage years it gets more difficult, as they want to spend more time with their friends (entirely natural), so I reckon the OP should be even more present in his daughter's life if he can and his new partner should accept this. If she can't, then she obviously doesn't understand his priorities.

If you want children and your partner doesn't, that's a different story and might be a separate deal-breaker.

bakergirl91 · 16-04-2014 12:20am

There are a number of things that are setting alarm bells off for me. Firstly, nobody should dictate to you how many times a week you see or speak to your daughter, outside of the courts etc. Your partner clearly feels insecure, and threatened. That is understandable, considering the frequent contact made by your ex, and something that you should talk to her about. But i wouldnt budge on my parental rights to please your partner. Secondly, you want different things. It appears final big step for your partner is moving in together. However, you want more. I think you really need to think about what you want and whether its worth giving up for the sake of your relationship. The best of luck !

Stavro Mueller · 16-04-2014 7:32am

If you would like more kids, how do you plan to have that happen? Your girlfriend sounds like someone who (actively?) dislikes children so kids are off the table there.

While I can understand why she'd resent your ex ringing and ringing til you answer the phone, overall I feel she's being very unreasonable. She knew you had a child when she got involved with you. Perhaps she was willing to tolerate that part because your daughter wasn't impinging so much in her life at the start.

From your daughter's point of view it's great that both of her parents are able to agree on things without sticking rigidly to a court order or having to email. I'm certain she knows how much your girlfriend dislikes her though. If you move in together where will your daughter fall in this new arrangement? If your gf is actively trying to have you reduce contact with your own child, do you think she'll be welcome under your roof?

stickybookmark · 16-04-2014 11:43am

Hi OP, firstly this business of your ex ringing you most days? Absolutely, totally, completely unacceptable.

You need to stop that right away, you are in a relationship! How would anybody feel if their other half was on the blower to their ex having private one-to-one conversations, almost every day?!?!

I actually can't believe you've let that go on so long, your gf is right to be totally p!ssed off and you should never have let this situation develop in this way. I am going out with a guy with kids from a previous relationship and in the early days his ex was up to the same old tricks, she'd text and ring him (at work) almost every day. The excuses I was given were that the kids were young (so how do you justify this over one child and a 14 year old at that!!!) and that the break-up was relatively recent (she ran off with new bf) and she was having trouble settling into being a single parent etc. However I put my foot down, I actually left my bf over this (very upsetting for both of us). To be honest looking back on those dark days when he used to be in contact with his ex every day when I wasn't there....I don't know how our relationship survived.

Eventually he put boundaries in place (of course this went down like a lead balloon but eventually she adjusted and learned to lean on other people like her mother, her new bf, friends etc) instead of totally inappropriately leaning on my boyfriend. Even now I hate the fact that he has to ring her phone to talk to the kids, as she often used to hijack these phonecalls (which were officially supposed to be between him and the kids) to give out to him/wreck his head/be nasty to him/make demands. However as far as I'm concerned as soon as the oldest gets her own phone, there shoudl be no reason for him to ever ring his ex - all their communication now is done through email (and unfortunately solicitors as well). They only speak on the phone now in case of emergency. She eventually realised this was for the best as well, although that took years to be honest. But things are so much healthier and better now for everyone.

Maybe if the gender roles were reversed this would be easier for a guy to accept (his girlfriend having private one-to-one conversations with her ex boyfriend every day) but as a woman I can tell you there are very few, if any, women out there that will put up with this.

dark crystal · 16-04-2014 12:06pm

You say your girlfriend is your best friend, but honestly, she doesn't sound like much of a friend at all. What sort of a person would wish to keep a father and his child apart? It's an utterly selfish and vindictive thing to do.

I'm actually puzzled as to why you're still with her. If any partner of mine attempted to prevent me from having a steady relationship with my child, they'd be gone. Perhaps your ex senses your girlfriend's hostility towards your daughter and is a tad more zealous about keeping you involved than she otherwise would be because of this.

My advice would be to continue being as involved in your daughter's life as you can possibly be - a parent's love for a child is unconditional, which is as it should be. Please don't compromise on such an important issue for anyone.
Also, if your girlfriend has been upfront and made it clear to you that she doesn't envision a future with marriage and children, then unless you're willing to compromise on your own needs to keep her happy, I would think seriously about where this relationship is headed because it may cause a lot of resentment further down the line.

stickybookmark · 16-04-2014 12:12pm

Also as gf of a fella with kids, I have to say it's much much easier on our relationship when the access with the kids is streamlined i.e. takes place on certain days and times. That means that we actually get to have a life and can make plans (and same for his ex and her fella). Going out with a guy with kids is (obviously) really hard but it's much harder if the goal posts keep moving and the access is all over the place. My other half and his ex stick to the court regulated access to the letter and it's so much easier on everyone as we all know what to expect -we all know months in advance what exactly is going to happen over Xmas, Easter, summer hols we all know which weekends he will have the kids and which weekends he won't. It makes life liveable basically.

As for your currently gf not wanting kids, I guess the whole having kids things tends to be more of an issue for girls than it is for fellas? I mean you've stayed with her 9 years presumably knowing this, so you're obviously not That pushed about having more kids? If it was a deal breaker for you, I presume you wouldn't have stayed with her so long?

czechlin · 16-04-2014 2:09pm

You've been together 9 years, you don't even live together and you sound like you want fairly different things in life. Also that's more than enough time to get used to the fact that you have a child and yet your girlfriend doesn't seem to have formed any sort of a relationship with your daughter, which I find quite bizarre. Going out with a man, who is a father is tough but it was her choice, she may not necessarily be friends with your daughter but she's not making any effort whatsoever, quite the opposite.

I can understand her frustration with your ex calling you on a daily basis and I think this could be sorted out as you seem to have a good relationship. I think it's great that you don't have to go down the official letters/e-mails way but you could moderate the contact with your ex. However, in no way could I excuse her behaviour in telling you when you should and should not contact/see your daughter. Keeping to the visits' schedule is important but if you have the chance and the opportunity to see your daughter outside the schedule then why shouldn't you!? And to tell you that you should call her only once a week?? That's completely out of order and controlling.
And as cymbaline mentioned if you and your gf move in together, how is that going to work? How is your daughter going to feel when she'll have to stay in a place where she won't be welcome? That will create some tension.

OP you sound like a great dad, who has a nice relationship with his child. Cherish that because not everybody has it. She's 14 and the next few years might be a bit rocky, having a dad that she can talk to and trust him is a huge advantage. It sometimes might be a lot of effort but it's well worth it.
While your daughter is a big part of your life, your life is not wrapped around her and you should be happy in your relationship, but can you honestly see yourself happy the way things are going?

Starokan · 16-04-2014 3:20pm

You need to have two conversations with two women:)

It would seem to me that your partner is as of yet incapable of understanding the bond that exists between a parent and child. You will have to talk to her and try to make her understand that cutting out time or cutting down communication is simply not under any circumstances possible.

If she cannot grasp this then the relationship is in major trouble , hopefully she can.

As regards your ex I can totally understand your partners frustration particularly when it comes to constant calling, you need to make her understand that your not at her beck and call unless its categorically something to do with your daughter. Place yourself in your partners shoes, would you like some bloke calling her consistently?

Two difficult conversations but hopefully it all works out for you

Sleepless and Manic · 16-04-2014 3:58pm

stickybookmark wrote: »

Hi OP, firstly this business of your ex ringing you most days? Absolutely, totally, completely unacceptable.

You need to stop that right away, you are in a relationship! How would anybody feel if their other half was on the blower to their ex having private one-to-one conversations, almost every day?!?!

I actually can't believe you've let that go on so long, your gf is right to be totally p!ssed off and you should never have let this situation develop in this way. I am going out with a guy with kids from a previous relationship and in the early days his ex was up to the same old tricks, she'd text and ring him (at work) almost every day. The excuses I was given were that the kids were young (so how do you justify this over one child and a 14 year old at that!!!) and that the break-up was relatively recent (she ran off with new bf) and she was having trouble settling into being a single parent etc. However I put my foot down, I actually left my bf over this (very upsetting for both of us). To be honest looking back on those dark days when he used to be in contact with his ex every day when I wasn't there....I don't know how our relationship survived.

Eventually he put boundaries in place (of course this went down like a lead balloon but eventually she adjusted and learned to lean on other people like her mother, her new bf, friends etc) instead of totally inappropriately leaning on my boyfriend. Even now I hate the fact that he has to ring her phone to talk to the kids, as she often used to hijack these phonecalls (which were officially supposed to be between him and the kids) to give out to him/wreck his head/be nasty to him/make demands. However as far as I'm concerned as soon as the oldest gets her own phone, there shoudl be no reason for him to ever ring his ex - all their communication now is done through email (and unfortunately solicitors as well). They only speak on the phone now in case of emergency. She eventually realised this was for the best as well, although that took years to be honest. But things are so much healthier and better now for everyone.

Maybe if the gender roles were reversed this would be easier for a guy to accept (his girlfriend having private one-to-one conversations with her ex boyfriend every day) but as a woman I can tell you there are very few, if any, women out there that will put up with this.

This is the real problem I think.

You're all coming down on the GF but You're only hearing one side, has it occurred that she might be getting equally fed up with the situation? That she might have finally put her foot down on the Ex calling constantly and she having the "its for the kids" phrase thrown back at her so that she has no say in the matter?

The OP has custody of the kid one day a week and yet he is at his Ex's beck and call every day. If she doesnt get through she keeps ringing.

Doesnt anyone see thats a little odd?

And yes. I get it. I do. Kids need parents. And they need to communicate. But every day?

I'd be interested to know for instance what an average days phone call consists of. Is it the schedule for the next day? School pick up times? Dentists visits? School grades? Sports?

LegacyUser · 16-04-2014 4:27pm

Civ wrote: »

I'm having a hard time trying to figure out something and looking for some external prospective.

I've been going out with my gf for the last 9+ years. I'm from Cork, and she is from Dublin, and both of us live there. We're both in our mid 30s. We also don't live together, but are planning on it. No kids together, and no plans for kids or marriage. I have a daughter (14) from a previous relationship, and I am still in contact with my ex-gf.

Recently, we've been having problems which ended up in a large argument last week, and we've barely spoken for 10 days while I try and figure out where I would like the relationship to go.

Basically, the fight came down to the fact that I have my daughter. My gf feels that I should only take my DD when the court order says I should (i.e. on Saturdays for about 10 hours, and every 4th weekend). I should also only take calls from her once a week, and only communicate with her mother by email or solicitors' letters.

I feel that I should be able talk to my DD either when I want to, or when she wants to (her - daughter's - mother feels the same way). I also feel that I should be able to take my daughter when I feel like it (within reason of school, holidays, other commitments). Part of the argument was that I had thought to take my daughter for a few days over Easter (as she was off, it was her b-day, and I am free). I wasn't due to see the gf during this time (never do on the days in question), and it sparked a large argument.

I think that part of the issue could also be the fact that my ex-gf tends to ring me about once a day, to discuss things to do with my daughter. If I don't answer, she will ring constantly until I do answer. This causes massive unease and disquiet with my gf, and it does, sometimes, feel that my ex still dominates our relation. I should point out that neither myself nor my ex-gf have any feelings for each other, and were only together for the sake of our daughter, and give her a stable upbringing for the first number of years of her life.

This entire argument has led me to question whether we should be together or not. She is my best friend, and normally we get on well together. However, this argument has made me question whether I want to stay in this relationship. I would like certain things from a LTR, such as marriage and kids. The gf, on the other hand, wants to live together, but no marriage or kids (she has personal/family reasons for not wanting either).

I'm very confused as to where to go. I'm normally very logical, but at the moment I'm conflicted between my head and heart.

Sorry for the long post.

If you have had a good relationship with your ex and your daughter for the past 14 years I'd strongly consider the consequences of making changes to your current routine.

If you followed your girlfriend's requests, and you limited phone contact with both your ex and your daughter, how would that affect relations? How would that affect the atmosphere and the nature of the calls when they did occur? How would that affect how both your daughter and your ex perceive, especially as you have set a precedent now for a number of years, it wouldn't take an intuitive genius to sense that someone else was behind the change. That wouldn't make you look too good either. It's very hard to change precedent in relationship, so take that on board and don't expect the transition to be easy. It will have consequences.

If you followed your girlfriend's advice/request about sticking to the court order, when you appear to have a pretty good flexibility here based on goodwill, which could be compromised if you start messing around with communications, then I'd tread very carefully. If you decide to take a strictly legal relationship with this, then bear in mind that court orders can be ammended.... and made more minimal. Bear in mind too, your daughter is 14 and at the age when kids start veering away from their parents. It would be very easy at this stage to lose contact with any depth.

This is your family and your responsibility. You communicate how you see fit and how works for you and your situation. This is not your girlfriend's responsibility or anyone on the internet's either.

This part here stands out:

"Part of the argument was that I had thought to take my daughter for a few days over Easter (as she was off, it was her b-day, and I am free). I wasn't due to see the gf during this time (never do on the days in question), and it sparked a large argument."

This is a situation where visitation with your daughter would have no effect on your girlfriend, she wouldn't have to hear the phone, share you with your family, nothing like that, and it sparked an argument because it reflects more than obligation, it reflects pure free will... and that should ring bells.

As for all the other things you mentioned about kids and family with your girlfriend, either accept that she doesn't want them or move on and find someone with compatible desires.

LegacyUser · 16-04-2014 4:42pm

To the people freaking out about the ex's contact with the OP the only issue the OP has stated he has with his ex is she rings most days, he didn't say she was clinging to him or leaning on him nor that she tired to hijack calls to his daughter or control him via access to his child. I agree she shouldn't keep ringing if he doesn't answer but other then I can't see what the GF's issue is. His child is 14 old enough to make the choice herself if she wants to spend more time outside of court appointed time with her father. A lot of fathers would love to be able to spend more time with their children not looking to limit the access and given the childs age she's going to want to know why her dad won't see her which will effect their relationship. This idea of the OP only using mail or solicitors to talk to his ex is madness. People are always moaning about separated families and lack of communication and here the OP appears to have good relationship with both his child and his ex which a lot of single parents would kill for. He's been able to see his daughter for the most part when he wants and the only issue he has listed with his ex is she calls most days to discuss the child.

I don't understand the GF or your relationship OP, I'm female, dislike children and would never date someone with kids because of this but even I can understand the interaction you have with both your child and your ex. I don't get how you, OP, and your GF have been together nearly a decade and haven't address this issue more. I wonder is it because as your child is now a teenager and she is taking it more upon herself to call you and spend time with you and it's only dawning on her that she has to share you with her? How you can have any sort of relationship with both your GF and your child when they haven't seen each other since last summer baffles me. I wouldn't expect the two to be best buddies but how on earth could you date someone for so long and not have any sort of relationship? You talk about marriage and more kids while in same breath stating she doesn't want kids of her own and doesn't tolerate your child...how exactly is that going to work OP?

I don't think it's reasonable to ask your ex to never call as you do share a child but do tell her to call once (unless it's an emergency, making clear what is an emergency) and you'll call her back when it suits you. Then sit down with your GF and be frank with each other as exactly what you both want now and in the future from the relationship and be ready to accept that you may not want the same things as really doesn't sound like your on the same page or even reading from the same book.

stickybookmark · 16-04-2014 8:12pm

notsoconfused wrote: »

It's very hard to change precedent in relationship, so take that on board and don't expect the transition to be easy. It will have consequences.

If you followed your girlfriend's advice/request about sticking to the court order, when you appear to have a pretty good flexibility here based on goodwill, which could be compromised if you start messing around with communications, then I'd tread very carefully. If you decide to take a strictly legal relationship with this, then bear in mind that court orders can be ammended.... and made more minimal. Bear in mind too, your daughter is 14 and at the age when kids start veering away from their parents. It would be very easy at this stage to lose contact with any depth.

Good points here. I was going to suggest OP that one solution could be that you vary the access order in court (to increase the frequency) and then try to stick to it but nosoconfused does make a good point here that if your ex turns nasty she could try to reduce it. I appreciate that it is a positive thing that your ex, your daughter and you agree that access should be flexible and should occur whenever you/your daughter wants it to. But you are not single, and if you want to be in a relationship your longterm partner's feelings/wishes will have to be included into the mix as well and a solution or compromise found.

notsoconfused wrote: »

This part here stands out:

"Part of the argument was that I had thought to take my daughter for a few days over Easter (as she was off, it was her b-day, and I am free). I wasn't due to see the gf during this time (never do on the days in question), and it sparked a large argument."

This is a situation where visitation with your daughter would have no effect on your girlfriend, she wouldn't have to hear the phone, share you with your family, nothing like that, and it sparked an argument because it reflects more than obligation, it reflects pure free will... and that should ring bells.

This also jumped out at me but for a different reason... it seems to me like the behaviour of someone that has reached the end of their tether. If all was well and she felt secure and happy in your relationship and proper boundaries and structures were in place between you and your ex then I would imagine your gf would react rationally to a reasonable request from you that you were thinking of organising some extra access with your daughter over Easter at a time that didn't interfere with plans already made with your gf.

Also I think if all was well otherwise and she didn't feel so threatened that she shouldn't have an issue with you and your teenage daughter ringing each other whenever ye want to.

I think the fact she has an issue with those 2 things seems symptomatic of the bigger issue of boundaries. Maybe your girlfriend feels like the situation is gone totally out of control now and she's struggling to fight for some patch of territory, some part of your life that is exclusively hers.

You are juggling 3 women's emotions and trying to keep them all happy - not easy! But for most people mid 30s and going out 9+ years, their partner would be their no.1 port of call/reference point. They are the person that would first be consulted about important decisions and plans for the holidays.

If you love her enough and think she is the one long-term some changes will have to be made to try to make things workable. If you don't, and you would like to find a new partner, you will still need to make changes to accommodate the new person's wishes and needs when they come along so either way you need to have a serious think about the issue of boundaries with your ex.

LegacyUser · 16-04-2014 9:26pm

stickybookmark wrote: »

This also jumped out at me but for a different reason... it seems to me like the behaviour of someone that has reached the end of their tether. If all was well and she felt secure and happy in your relationship and proper boundaries and structures were in place between you and your ex then I would imagine your gf would react rationally to a reasonable request from you that you were thinking of organising some extra access with your daughter over Easter at a time that didn't interfere with plans already made with your gf.

Also I think if all was well otherwise and she didn't feel so threatened that she shouldn't have an issue with you and your teenage daughter ringing each other whenever ye want to.

Based on what the OP has posted I just can't read it as someone at the end of their tether. It reads based on the information provided like the GF just doesn't like kids and doesn't get what dating a separated parent means which is pretty amazing given they're dating 9+ years.

The fact that the GF hasn't seen the kid since last summer is a huge alarm bell to me. I don't think they need to be best of friends but given how long they've been going out, since his daughter was 5, there should be some forum of relationship even if it's a very basic one. My parents split and I was never best buds with either of their new partners but I at least got a card at Xmas off them, was invited to their wedding and invited them to mine.

Has your GF ever done any activities/spent time with you and your kid OP? Even at the start of the relationship? If she did and stopped I would view it as having issues with the ex maybe but if she's never made an effort at all then it's hard to blame other people. Birthdays, Xmas, big family events, it's super hard to date someone with a child and not find yourself being dragged in to some degree. Other then too many phone calls the OP doesn't elaborate enough on the relationship with the ex to judge that much to be honest. There is no mention of access being denied or long drawn out court battles over the kid, he appears to have a very good relationship with his child, plenty of threads on this forum of fathers not so lucky

The OP has stated it will be the his kids birthday over the Easter one would think given they have been going out nearly a decade the GF has learned that school breaks and birthdays are the times you'd expect extra time with the child. The OP would need to elaborate more on the set up for me to see what boundary issues there as he and the GF don't live together....is that because of the child or for other reasons? If it's for reasons unrelated to the child then I'm failing to see any territory issue.

If you did do as she asked - only spoke to your ex via email etc and cut back to just court ordered time with her daughter, ignoring how that would effect your relationship with your kid, would your OH be willing to make changes as well? Would she agree to spend time with you and your daughter during some of your time? What happens when your child is an adult and the court order no longer applies will your OH allow you to spend time with her? Ask yourself OP if you got married tomorrow would your GF let you invite your daughter? If you moved in together would you be allowed have a bedroom for your child or keep items of hers in the house? When talking about boundaries it works both ways and the GF has to accept the daughter.

LegacyUser · 16-04-2014 10:49pm

From what you have told both you and your girlfriend sound like very different people.
At this stage I would do the following

1) Tell your ex that she has to stop ringing you until she speaks to you and that you only want her to contact you in the case of emergancy ie your daughter is in hospital, gets in trouble in school or if she needs to change the day you see her due to personal reasons.
I would also say that your daughter can ring you any time she wants.
2) Let your girlfriend know that you have done this but for you it is important that your daughter can ring you when she wants. I would also say to her that some times you want to spend more time with your daughter than a courted appointed time but you will chat to her about this going forward.

In your situation I would be thinking long and hard about what you want from your life - is marriage or having another child important to you?

My feeling is that if you move in together you will be very unhappy due to the following:
a) Your girlfriend does not want your daughter in her life but the reality is your daughter is part of your life. If you move in together she will ring you and stay in your home.
b) She expects you to ring your daughter once on a set day/time she wants you to see her only at a court appointed time/day.
c) What happens if you don't go along with everything she wants?
d) What will happen if you move in together will she expect you to lose contact with your daughter because it does not suit her?

My feeling is that as a couple your have plodded along for the past few years and that long term you want different things.
Your girlfriend wants everything her own way and she does not want to get married or have children. She does not like the fact you have a child and has shown this by making no effort to know your daughter.
In your case I would think long and hard about moving in with her because long term I feel you will lose contact with your daughter and end up living with a woman who will make your life hard unless everything is going her way.

Stavro Mueller · 16-04-2014 11:35pm

OP, did your girlfriend and your daughter ever have any sort of relationship? Or has she always kept her distance and just about tolerated her? I don't think anyone'd expect the pair of them to be best buddies or anything but she presumably has known your daughter since she was 5

LegacyUser · 17-04-2014 12:27am

OP here. Thank you for everybody's input. The discussions have been very interesting and have provided a lot a food for thought. It is also very helpful for me in understanding both where I should possibly be going, and my GF's point of view. I'll try and answer some of the questions asked, and elaborate on some things.

1) GF did, for a while, have a relationship with my daughter, when myself and the GF lived together. She had to move out for reasons of work, and the long commute (2 hours each way), while my work was close by. The relationship between my GF and my daughter kind of broke down then, and hasn't really got back to where it was.

I think the GF feels a bit left out from the time I spend with my daughter, due to living in different parts of the city (D.18 vs D.13), and the long travel times. I have tried to organise things with them both, such as shopping trips, activities with my GF's nieces and nephews (a slight bit younger, but not much), etc. but the GF is not really interested. I also get the impression that she finds children, in general, to be moany and whiney. She wouldn't have been a child person before she met me, and didn't ever really want children.

2) The ex would normally ring about various matters, ranging from large scale arguments over money, holidays, visitation, etc, through to petty matters like my daughter not eating her lunch, or being a typical 14 year old. (Even though it is generally very amicable over the last number of years, it can also be very bitter and acrimonious). When she is annoyed, or looking for a fight, I may get up to 40 calls in an evening (4-5 hours. The record, I think, is 45, but not for the last year or so). Occasionally, the calls might deals with matters of finance, law, or general business (which is where I work on a day-to-day basis), but they are infrequent, and normally do not result in multiple calls.

I understand where the GF is coming from with relation to the calls, and I have tried to put a reasonable halt to them, but to no real avail when the ex is annoyed/on the war path. For example, I have asked her (ex) to limit herself to one call every second day to discuss routine matters, if I don't have my daughter. When my daughter is with me, the ex might only ring once in the morning, or never, depending on her mood. I daughter has always been able to ring her mother, from my phone, whenever she wants.

3) With regard to myself and the GF, we normally get on great together. Occasionally, we will fight, like any couple do. The marriage, kids, and living together things do raise their heads. I also realise that all relationships are about compromise in one form or another, and part of the purpose of me posting here, originally, was to try and help me identify which things are suitable for compromising, and what I should stand my ground on. I think, I could, int he right circumstances, agree to no more children (medical and possibly financial reasons), but the marriage, or at least the prospect of marriage, would be important to me.

I do have a question regarding Notsoconfused's statement that I don't quite get:

"Part of the argument was that I had thought to take my daughter for a few days over Easter (as she was off, it was her b-day, and I am free). I wasn't due to see the gf during this time (never do on the days in question), and it sparked a large argument."

This is a situation where visitation with your daughter would have no effect on your girlfriend, she wouldn't have to hear the phone, share you with your family, nothing like that, and it sparked an argument because it reflects more than obligation, it reflects pure free will... and that should ring bells.

Is Notsoconfused suggesting that my GF is trying to controlling me? I'm a bit naive when it comes to what people say or write, and not the best at reading between the lines (or even what is written on them).

I hope I've answered the main questions and provided enough elaboration for some further feedback. It is quite late, for me, so I apologize if some of the things I have said sound a little confused. I would also like to thank you all, again, for your insight, it has been very useful.

Tokyo · 17-04-2014 1:01am

40 phonecalls from your ex per evening??! I'm absolutely gobsmacked that your girlfriend has waited around this long through all of this! Any wonder time spent together with you is so precious to her. Nip the phonecalls in the bud ASAP, and you might find that your girlfriend is a lot more forgiving of the time you spend with your daughter, if she isn't competing with your ex too for 4-5 hours every day.

LegacyUser · 17-04-2014 6:37am

CIV wrote: »

I do have a question regarding Notsoconfused's statement that I don't quite get:

"Part of the argument was that I had thought to take my daughter for a few days over Easter (as she was off, it was her b-day, and I am free). I wasn't due to see the gf during this time (never do on the days in question), and it sparked a large argument."

This is a situation where visitation with your daughter would have no effect on your girlfriend, she wouldn't have to hear the phone, share you with your family, nothing like that, and it sparked an argument because it reflects more than obligation, it reflects pure free will... and that should ring bells.

Is Notsoconfused suggesting that my GF is trying to controlling me? I'm a bit naive when it comes to what people say or write, and not the best at reading between the lines (or even what is written on them).

To some extent yes, I think your GF is trying to control you and have more influence over your family. What it stems from could be any number of things and maybe what this is ultimately about, as someone else already said, is boundaries. Or maybe she wants more of your attention and this competes with that. Hard to know.

Saying that, I have noticed across the board in these situations, that people walk into them assuming a separateness, a neat and tidiness, when rarely if ever does that happen, as to all intents and purposes you are all in a family system together and there is no way of changing the nature of that. What happens then is the expectations get violated, when perhaps they were misguided in the first place, and then people get surprised, disappointed, insecure, angry, feel out of control, etc. But when you think about it, why would it or should it be any other way?

One solution to avoiding the 40 phone calls when you have a disagreement is to put a protocol in place as to what to do when a disagreement occurs. You said it hasn't happened in over a year but it still may be a good idea anyway.

I would think very carefully about how you go about changing communications, as these things tend to be chicken and egg. Your good and flexible access schedule and relationship maybe a direct bi product of the frequency of the communication. If you impose a distance, it's not necessarily the case that your ex can get nasty, but she might get distant, and you might too, and with that come two things, perspective and/or the dissipation of empathy, and if it's the latter, then things tend to not get so good. Just some food for thought. If you change the communications, you can expect other things to change with it, and you can't always predict or control what those outcomes will be.

And ultimately yes, you all have to find a way to be happy with this, you, your ex, and your girlfriend, because like it or not, you are all in a relationship with each other at some level, and that is the uncomfortable fact.

Penny Tration · 17-04-2014 7:51am

If my ex were ringing me up to 40 times in an evening, and ringing repeatedly until I answer, I'd be going to the police and having her charged with harassment. No wonder your girlfriend is fuming over it.

stickybookmark · 17-04-2014 9:09am

lady 2013 wrote: »

At this stage I would do the following

1) Tell your ex that she has to stop ringing you until she speaks to you and that you only want her to contact you in the case of emergancy ie your daughter is in hospital, gets in trouble in school or if she needs to change the day you see her due to personal reasons.
I would also say that your daughter can ring you any time she wants.

2) Let your girlfriend know that you have done this but for you it is important that your daughter can ring you when she wants. I would also say to her that some times you want to spend more time with your daughter than a courted appointed time but you will chat to her about this going forward.

The above advice is pretty spot on.

CIV wrote: »

2) The ex would normally ring about various matters, ranging from large scale arguments over money, holidays, visitation, etc, through to petty matters like my daughter not eating her lunch, or being a typical 14 year old. (Even though it is generally very amicable over the last number of years, it can also be very bitter and acrimonious). When she is annoyed, or looking for a fight, I may get up to 40 calls in an evening (4-5 hours. The record, I think, is 45, but not for the last year or so). Occasionally, the calls might deals with matters of finance, law, or general business (which is where I work on a day-to-day basis), but they are infrequent, and normally do not result in multiple calls.

I understand where the GF is coming from with relation to the calls, and I have tried to put a reasonable halt to them, but to no real avail when the ex is annoyed/on the war path. For example, I have asked her (ex) to limit herself to one call every second day to discuss routine matters, if I don't have my daughter

I think this happens frequently enough in these situations (gazillions of irate phone calls etc) but what's out of the ordinary here is that you didn't nip these phone calls in the bud. It's amazing you've left them go on for so long.

It's like your ex never severed the cord with you after ye broke up. You are still her main sounding board, her 'go-to' person. She never replaced you with other more appropriate supports like her mother, her sister, her new partner, another friend who is a parent? And you facilitated this.

I wonder in some way do you actually feed off this contact with your ex? I know you said that there's nothing whatsoever physical or romantic between ye but is there still an emotional connection there?
I know you probably did it because you thought it was in the best interests of your daughter, but your daughter is nearly reared now - she's 14 and has her own phone. There's no need for this contact with your ex to continue (and in my opinion there was never a need for it as my boyfriend and his ex manage to co-parent 2 kids without this!).

Although there will of course be a reaction to you putting a stop to this unhealthy dependence as said in post above, there's also consquences of letting it continue, namely you could lose your longterm partner. That's also fairly serious like.

Your ex's extreme phone calling etc might be shocking but not totally uncommon in these situations I'd wager. In fact it apparently comes up so often as an issue that the courts even feel the need to put a reference to phone contact into the access order (I'm reading this from the front of my boyf's one)
' CURRENT CONTACT TELEPHONE NUMBERS TO BE EXCHANGED - KEPT CURRENT - TO BE USED ONLY FOR ACCESS MATTERS AND KEPT SWITCHED ON 24 HOURS PRIOR AND DURING ALL ACCESS'
and that's not from the bespoke part of the access order that was agreed between the 2 parties, that's from the standard first page of the access order that everybody gets.

Idle Passerby · 17-04-2014 11:00am

Hmmm... So you want a marriage and kids with your long term girlfriend, while after nearly 10 years she has no interest in either and you still don't even live together.

It sounds like she resents your daughter (and possibly the on-going contact with the ex that entails.) How could you possibly have a marriage or a life with someone who is unwilling to accept and encourage your relationship with your own child? How would you even share a home with someone who dislikes your daughter visiting? I don't know what age your daughter is but she will eventually pick up on your girlfriends attitude towards her if she hasn't already.

You're girlfriend wants a man with no kids, who wants no kids. And you on the other hand want all the things your girlfriend blatantly does not want. How is that actually going to work out?

Sleepless and Manic · 17-04-2014 4:26pm

The OP has an ongoing relationship with his Ex, and the Ex is actively pushing the GF out of the picture. The Ex is probably bad mouthing her to the daughter at every opportunity. Sad but it happens. No wonder the relationship the GF had with the daughter has slowly broken down.

If the GF has any sense she'd be out of there.

Sorry to be cynical about it.

LegacyUser · 17-04-2014 4:50pm

Sleepless and Manic wrote: »

The OP has an ongoing relationship with his Ex, and the Ex is actively pushing the GF out of the picture. The Ex is probably bad mouthing her to the daughter at every opportunity. Sad but it happens. No wonder the relationship the GF had with the daughter has slowly broken down.

The OP has made a number of negative comments about the ex, and she has been bang out of order on some points but at no point did he imply she was bad mouthing his GF to his daughter. When talking about the lack of relationship between he first blames the fact that they no longer live together due to the commute but then clearly states:

"I have tried to organise things with them both, such as shopping trips, activities with my GF's nieces and nephews (a slight bit younger, but not much), etc. but the GF is not really interested. I also get the impression that she finds children, in general, to be moany and whiney. She wouldn't have been a child person before she met me, and didn't ever really want children."

The OP has said a number of times his GF is not a child person and has no interest in children of her own or children around not just his kid but her own nieces and nephews. As said a number of times she does not need to be best friends with the daughter but the fact that after a decade she has no relationship at all with her BF's child is frankly odd. It just isn't possible to date someone with children and not have some involvement. He needs to take lady 2013 advice and have a frank conversation with his ex about their communication and then he needs to have a frank conversation with his OH and say he's made changes to how he deals with his ex but she needs to meet him half away and accept his daughter as part of his life. Of all the people involved here the daughter is the one who shouldn't have to suffer, she's done nothing wrong and shouldn't have access to her father controlled by either her mother or her fathers GF to be honest.

dark crystal · 18-04-2014 12:03pm

Sleepless and Manic wrote: »

The OP has an ongoing relationship with his Ex,

Yes, she's the mother of his child. That relationship will always be ongoing to some extent.

and the Ex is actively pushing the GF out of the picture. The Ex is probably bad mouthing her to the daughter at every opportunity. Sad but it happens. No wonder the relationship the GF had with the daughter has slowly broken down.

I have no idea how you came to that conclusion tbh. The OP mentioned the ex also had a partner and there's no indication at all that she has any interest romantically in him.

Sounds to me like his current girlfriend has no interest in his daughter at all due to her dislike of children in general. Nothing to do with any badmouthing by his ex.

If the GF has any sense she'd be out of there.

Sorry to be cynical about it.

I agree. If his girlfriend can't accept his daughter after nine years, I wouldn't see a future in this relationship either.

stickybookmark · 18-04-2014 2:31pm

dark crystal wrote: »

The OP mentioned the ex also had a partner and there's no indication at all that she has any interest romantically in him.

No he didn't?

dark crystal · 18-04-2014 3:33pm

stickybookmark wrote: »

No he didn't?

Ah sorry, confusing it with another post.

He does say they aren't interested in each other in that way though and were only together for the sake of the child. There's no indication at all that the ex wants anything from him other than an amicable relationship as parents of their child.
Blaming her for the disinterest shown by the OP's girlfriend in his daughter after nine years seems totally misguided to me.

Sleepless and Manic · 18-04-2014 5:25pm

dark crystal wrote: »

There's no indication at all that the ex wants anything from him other than an amicable relationship as parents of their child.

What about the forty phone calls a day then?

??

dark crystal · 18-04-2014 8:00pm

Sleepless and Manic wrote: »

What about the forty phone calls a day then?

??

I'm not condoning that many phone calls, but that level of conact doesn't seem to be a frequent occurance, in fairness. He has spoken to his ex about the issue and says the calls have abated a lot during the last year and that they are generally amicable in nature. An amicable relationship between separated parents is much healthier for a child than constant fighting and legal battles.

Again, there's no indication that the ex is badmouthing the girlfriend at all. His daughter isn't stupid. She's probably well aware of how indifferent the OP's girlfriend has always been to her. The OP admits his girlfriend has no interest in his daughter and is actually put out by the time he wants to spend with her.
Sorry, but truthfully, if my partner was that hostile towards the most important person in my life, I'd have got rid long ago.

LegacyUser · 18-04-2014 8:23pm

It all sounds a bit chicken-and-egg though - which came first, the GF being what *sounds* like unreasonable behaviour re his daughter, or that she is at the end of her tether re utterly intrusive behaviour of the ex (to really, really extreme levels on occasion).

With the extra info that the OP provided, I'd say the GF has been very patient for 9 years about this, and has now reached breaking point and is making a 'last stand'.

I think she's wrong re limiting contact with the daughter, but to be fair, the ex and daughter sound like they're bound up in same problem in her head: that she will always come last in his priorities, whenever he has time 'left over' from his daughter & ex.

When I read this thread at the start, I thought the GF was dead wrong - and I'm not into kids myself either - but now, I have no idea how she has lasted this long. If she was my friend, I'd be telling her to cut her losses and walk away.

It sounds like everything has been let get to extremes: contact with the ex is at a hell of an extreme, which I don't think any new partner would reasonably put up with. It's great that there is flexibility re the daughters arrangements - but I can see how absolute flexibility/unpredictability of arrangements would be trying for the GF if she feels excluded on other fronts (like distance, and hugely excessive contact from the ex). And it sounds like this has been going on for years, and the GF has now hit a wall where *she* is behaving in a bit of an extreme way, to try to salvage something for herself.

If nothing changes, you're going to lose your GF. If you want anything to change, you have to sit down and deal with each woman in your life and sort the problems (and expectations) out. 9 years is a long time for your GF waiting for that to happen.

LegacyUser · 18-04-2014 8:38pm

I meant to also say that really, whether you & your GF are on the same page re marriage & kids isn't the immediate issue by a long shot - the immediate issue is whether you're going to split or not over current day to day issues. I'd park the marriage & kids issue for now tbh, it's only complicating things. Decide whether you can be together for now, and then future expectations is a different conversation.

One other thing struck me: maybe it's just a way of putting things, but did you 'tell' your GF that you were taking your daughter for extra days over Easter, or did you check in with her re any plans/expectations she might have? The situation you're in, I honestly think it would go a long way to 'consult with' rather than 'inform'.

I would hope that if you can really get contact with the ex on to a far more normal footing, and talk to your GF about her expectations, that her interaction with your daughter will improve. If things have gone too far for that, then it's absolutely understandable why you'd split. Just keep in mind though, your daughter will be making her own way in the world in a few short years - so don't totally sacrifice your own life either OP.

Best of luck, and I hope you can find a happy balance all round.

Very confused

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